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R+L=J v.21


Angalin

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@The Red Wake

I'm guessing Rhaegar needed a big win to bring the rebels back into the fold, and then have the small council support him and help pressure his father to abdicate. If he tried to push Aerys off the throne without reunifying the 7 Kingdoms and absenting council support or recommendation, he also would be nothing but a usurper.

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Anyone else pondering WHY Rhaegar went to the Trident?

I mean, he apparently had some sort of plan to retire his father and straighten out the kingdom. Why then, didn't he do it before he met the Usurper on the Trident? He could easily have placated Eddard by letting him see and talk to Lyanna, and perhaps Robert if Lyanna was able to talk to him. Plus, I have no doubt that the Targaryen army would have been in a stronger position with Kings Landing and the Rush close by. Something is missing from my perspective. Anyone care to explain this to me?

If it was his intent to remove his father from leadership, this may have been a very long and tense issue. I think Rhaegar was already a little late to the party concerning the war and his prescence at the trident was necessary. He probably felt it was his duty to lead the royal army in overthrowing the rebellion( which he eventually failed to do anyway) so he must've wanted to be able to focus all of his attention on whatever his plans were regarding this council he was going to call after the rebels were taken care of. But the royalists failed and aerys was killed by Jaime so well never know unless someone who knew his intentions is still alive and put their two cents in. Until then my

guess is just that it was too important a matter to address when there was a battle to fight, which, if won, probably would've won a lot of those lords and houses who were on the fence, to his cause, and given rhaegar the time and support needed to do what he was going to do. This is all under the assumption that the council he meant to call was in regard to removing his father.

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First off, great forum!! Please forgive me if this has been brought up before...I admit I haven't gone through all of the hundreds of pages on this subject..

I have just started my first reread of the books, and I have a couple points I was wondering if I could get some help with.

1. Even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he isn't 1st in line to the throne...Aegon is. Isn't Aegon older? I guess most of the characters in the book think that Aegon is dead, so to them, Jon would be the legitimate heir if he were Rhaegar's son. But wouldn't Aegon's presence make all the talk of Jon being the ice part of the "fire and ice" (Jon and Daenarys) moot, if Aegon is around?

2. In the real world, this could be easily explained....but in this fantasy world, genetics apparantly behave a little differently. If Jon is a Targ...why doesn't he have the silver hair and violet eyes. It seems, to borrow a phrase, that the Targ "seed is strong". Aren't most, if not all, Targs, with these features? Admittedly, alot of this can be explained by their interbreeding, but there is one good example of the Targ features overriding others. Elia's Dornish features of dark hair and dark skin were overridden by Rhaegar's Targ features in their son, Aegon. To explain this, you might say that the Stark seed is even stronger that the Targs, and that is why Lyanna's Stark features overrides Rhaegar's in Jon....but...GRRM makes it pretty clear that the Stark seed is not strong--all of Cat and Ned's kids have Tulley features, except for Arya.

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Hi, welcome. :)

I have just started my first reread of the books, and I have a couple points I was wondering if I could get some help with.

1. Even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he isn't 1st in line to the throne...Aegon is. Isn't Aegon older? I guess most of the characters in the book think that Aegon is dead, so to them, Jon would be the legitimate heir if he were Rhaegar's son. But wouldn't Aegon's presence make all the talk of Jon being the ice part of the "fire and ice" (Jon and Daenarys) moot, if Aegon is around?

If Aegon is real, then yes, his claim would supersede Jon's. A lot of people think Aegon is a fraud, myself included.

2. In the real world, this could be easily explained....but in this fantasy world, genetics apparantly behave a little differently. If Jon is a Targ...why doesn't he have the silver hair and violet eyes. It seems, to borrow a phrase, that the Targ "seed is strong". Aren't most, if not all, Targs, with these features? Admittedly, alot of this can be explained by their interbreeding, but there is one good example of the Targ features overriding others. Elia's Dornish features of dark hair and dark skin were overridden by Rhaegar's Targ features in their son, Aegon. To explain this, you might say that the Stark seed is even stronger that the Targs, and that is why Lyanna's Stark features overrides Rhaegar's in Jon....but...GRRM makes it pretty clear that the Stark seed is not strong--all of Cat and Ned's kids have Tulley features, except for Arya.

Baelor Breakspear and Rhaenys Targaryen both looked like their Dornish mothers. So it's definitely possible for a Targ child to not look like a traditional Targ.

And just because the Stark genetics might be weaker than the Tully genetics doesn't mean that the same holds true against the Targ genetics. Just because 6 is less than 8 doesn't mean it's less than 5.

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Thanks for the explanations! I guess I never thought to question if Aegon was an imposter (silly me). I am shocked that there could possibly be another plot twist!! Most of the storyline has been pretty straight forward so far!!! :devil:

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I think that N+L=J and I know that's mest up but the more I read about Neds flashbacks in the cell and I remember him saying something about how not a day goes by that he doesn't remember Lyanna and what happened. I also remember him saying something about Raegher and a brothel and how he hadn't thought about Raegher in a long time and if Jon is Raeghers then why wouldn't he think about him more often I hope I'm wrong because Ned was one of my favorites but he felt a lot guilt about something

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N+L=J is impossible. The timeline disproves it; Lyanna was kidnapped(?) about one year before Ned found her again. So Ned would have had to sire Jon when Lyanna was far away in Dorne? Doesn't compute. Also, the presence of the KG and the Tower of Joy, and the fact that Ned never thinks of Jon as his son, speak volumes.

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Showing Lyanna to Robert would have been a terrible mistake. He would have killed Rhaegar and Lyanna in a fit of jealous rage, I guess. Ever talked to the jealous ex-boyfriend about his ex' new guy?

Not just showing Lyanna to Robert, but IF R and L were wanted to stay together, Lyanna could have talked her betrothed out of his rebellion. Eddard too, if he saw his sister was safe and happy.

Also, it might well be that Lyanna was too far into her pregnancy to travel at that point.

Perhaps, but people could always have gone to her.

And the Starks and Baratheons would still have considered Rhaegar a man they could never follow once he became king.

The Baratheons maybe, Renly was too young of course to know either way at the time. Eddard likely wouldn't be too happy, but placated if he knew his sister wasn't the prisoner of another mad king, but obviously pleased that the war was over and he was able to return home and settle down with his wife, without a false bastard son in tow.

Lastly, I don't think the rebellion was only about the abduction of Lyanna. Sure, it was the trigger that set it all off, but resentment towards king Aerys and the Targaryens was widespread even years before that.

Certainly not, but after the three leaders of the movement went home there wouldn't exactly be that many left to take on the Targaryen army, and many others would be pleased the beloved Crown Prince sat on the throne rather than Aerys.

It's just something that irks me given the information we have. I'm certain there's more to it.

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I think that N+L=J and I know that's mest up but the more I read about Neds flashbacks in the cell and I remember him saying something about how not a day goes by that he doesn't remember Lyanna and what happened. I also remember him saying something about Raegher and a brothel and how he hadn't thought about Raegher in a long time and if Jon is Raeghers then why wouldn't he think about him more often I hope I'm wrong because Ned was one of my favorites but he felt a lot guilt about something

I don't remember anything about Rhaegar and brothel…I really don't. What do you mean? Could you, please, explain? :)

Why love to your sister should only be a love to a woman? I have a lot of siblings and if I love them and miss them (thank God they are all alive) does it mean that there is something physical between us? I interpret Oberyn-Elia's relationship the same way. It's just true brotherly-sisterly love. I know for sure I would do anything for my siblings. Of course, we have Cersei-Jaime's example, but it doesn't mean that any brothers and sisters in the series are like them. There is such strong love between brothers and sisters without any incest involved.

Guilt could be for many things: for example, didn't save her or even let her run with Rhaegar or something concerning Jon (I believe R+L=J).

Ned is also my favorite! ;)

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I don't remember anything about Rhaegar and brothel…I really don't. What do you mean? Could you, please, explain? :)

Ned has some thoughts in GoT which were basically saying he didn't think Rhaegar was the kind of person who would visit a brothel.

As for theories believing that Ned really is Jon's father with Lyanna as the mother: that's just baseless nonsense.

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Ned has some thoughts in GoT which were basically saying he didn't think Rhaegar was the kind of person who would visit a brothel.

As for theories believing that Ned really is Jon's father with Lyanna as the mother: that's just baseless nonsense.

Thanks, I will reread, because I really don't remember :)

Agree - it's nonsense.

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2. In the real world, this could be easily explained....but in this fantasy world, genetics apparantly behave a little differently. If Jon is a Targ...why doesn't he have the silver hair and violet eyes. It seems, to borrow a phrase, that the Targ "seed is strong". Aren't most, if not all, Targs, with these features? Admittedly, alot of this can be explained by their interbreeding, but there is one good example of the Targ features overriding others. Elia's Dornish features of dark hair and dark skin were overridden by Rhaegar's Targ features in their son, Aegon. To explain this, you might say that the Stark seed is even stronger that the Targs, and that is why Lyanna's Stark features overrides Rhaegar's in Jon....but...GRRM makes it pretty clear that the Stark seed is not strong--all of Cat and Ned's kids have Tulley features, except for Arya.

I think that these examples needn't necessarily deny some basic genetics.

Light hair colour is generally a recessive feature, which would be preserved by interbreeding (both parents have only recessive copies of the gene, aa, and they pass it on). When Rhaegar (aa) marries Elia of Dorne, from a lineage with at least one Targ ancestor, she could have possessed the combination of the recessive and dominant gene (Aa), which easily could have resulted in Rhaenys inheriting the Dornish features (Aa) and Aegon the Targaryen ones (aa). There is no real-world equivalent for purple eyes, so this may go in a number of ways, especially because eye colour is a rather complicated feature influenced by a couple of genes.

The Stark and Tully looks are merely a result of various combinations for more or less similar colours. Blue and grey eyes are both light colours, reddish and brown hair are not on a fully recessive-dominant scale, either, so they may come up they way they did - but it's easier for brown to "override" the Targaryen silver.

Thanks, I will reread, because I really don't remember :)

/gasp/ that was the crucial line that set me thinking there may have been a romance - a VERY weird thought from the brother of the supposed rape victim.

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I think that N+L=J and I know that's mest up but the more I read about Neds flashbacks in the cell and I remember him saying something about how not a day goes by that he doesn't remember Lyanna and what happened. I also remember him saying something about Raegher and a brothel and how he hadn't thought about Raegher in a long time and if Jon is Raeghers then why wouldn't he think about him more often I hope I'm wrong because Ned was one of my favorites but he felt a lot guilt about something

N+L does not=J on a lot of levels already explained. The part of GOT you're referring to, where Ned finds himself thinking of rhaegar is actually one of the biggest clues to R+L=J. He is there to see Roberts bastard at a brothel and this triggers Ned to think of rhaegar because of jon being rhaegars bastard and if he did the sane things as Robert. That was when I first started to suspect jons parentage. I knew that rhaegars name popping into neds head was not just a coincidence. As for why he doesn't think of rhaegar all that often, i think his thoughts regarding Jon are more toward his grief over what happened to his sister and the prices he paid to keep his promise.
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Not just showing Lyanna to Robert, but IF R and L were wanted to stay together, Lyanna could have talked her betrothed out of his rebellion. Eddard too, if he saw his sister was safe and happy.

Major problem. Despite what delusional Robert has talked himself into, Lyanna has nothing at all to do with the actual rebellion.

Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard, then demanded that Ned and Robert's heads be sent to him. THAT is what triggered the rebellion. Robert has his little fantasy about Lyanna, but it doesn't match the history. Lyanna and Rhaegar were one trigger factor in the rebellion, but are not related to the actual casus belli, so to speak.

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Major problem. Despite what delusional Robert has talked himself into, Lyanna has nothing at all to do with the actual rebellion.

Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard, then demanded that Ned and Robert's heads be sent to him. THAT is what triggered the rebellion. Robert has his little fantasy about Lyanna, but it doesn't match the history. Lyanna and Rhaegar were one trigger factor in the rebellion, but are not related to the actual casus belli, so to speak.

Exactly.

And also Jon Arryn's nephew & heir, he was in the party that rode in with Brandon. I believe they were all killed without ceremony.

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Major problem. Despite what delusional Robert has talked himself into, Lyanna has nothing at all to do with the actual rebellion.

Maybe not to some of the members of the rebellion, but Robert, as the figurehead and binding material which held it all together, is the one that needed placating. Lyanna might have been able to achieve that if she swung Ned to her side.

Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard, then demanded that Ned and Robert's heads be sent to him. THAT is what triggered the rebellion. Robert has his little fantasy about Lyanna, but it doesn't match the history. Lyanna and Rhaegar were one trigger factor in the rebellion, but are not related to the actual casus belli, so to speak.

Yes of course, but Lyanna was still a major factor in both Ned's and Robert's motivations. The two of them plus Jon Arryn were the leaders of the movement. If Aerys was removed, the beloved of the commons and a well respected and capable king put in place, along with Lyanna revealing herself as safe and happy, matters would have been defused. Robert would likely have drunk himself into a stupor and walked off the cliffs at Storm's End by accident, but there's a pretty good chance that peace would be restored. After all, did Ned and Jon Arryn really want to take the Iron Throne, or did they just defend themselves and their loved ones without a prize in mind whilst supporting a good friend?

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Maybe not to some of the members of the rebellion, but Robert, as the figurehead and binding material which held it all together, is the one that needed placating. Lyanna might have been able to achieve that if she swung Ned to her side.

Yes of course, but Lyanna was still a major factor in both Ned's and Robert's motivations. The two of them plus Jon Arryn were the leaders of the movement. If Aerys was removed, the beloved of the commons and a well respected and capable king put in place, along with Lyanna revealing herself as safe and happy, matters would have been defused. Robert would likely have drunk himself into a stupor and walked off the cliffs at Storm's End by accident, but there's a pretty good chance that peace would be restored. After all, did Ned and Jon Arryn really want to take the Iron Throne, or did they just defend themselves and their loved ones without a prize in mind whilst supporting a good friend?

Well, the fact remains that the rebellion only started weeks after Lyanna' disappearance with Rhaegar - right after Aerys burned those nobles and demanded Ned's and Robert's head.

Deeper discussions about the rebellion itself, it they wanted the throne from the start or not, can be found here.

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Maybe not to some of the members of the rebellion, but Robert, as the figurehead and binding material which held it all together, is the one that needed placating. Lyanna might have been able to achieve that if she swung Ned to her side.

The deaths of Rickard, Brandon, and Elbert were the equivalents of Ned's death 15 years later. Once that was done, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. And that's assuming Lyanna herself didn't need placating - this is her father & brother we're talking about.

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In the real world, this could be easily explained....but in this fantasy world, genetics apparantly behave a little differently. If Jon is a Targ...why doesn't he have the silver hair and violet eyes. It seems, to borrow a phrase, that the Targ "seed is strong". Aren't most, if not all, Targs, with these features? Admittedly, alot of this can be explained by their interbreeding, but there is one good example of the Targ features overriding others. Elia's Dornish features of dark hair and dark skin were overridden by Rhaegar's Targ features in their son, Aegon. To explain this, you might say that the Stark seed is even stronger that the Targs, and that is why Lyanna's Stark features overrides Rhaegar's in Jon....but...GRRM makes it pretty clear that the Stark seed is not strong--all of Cat and Ned's kids have Tulley features, except for Arya.

Ah, Westeros genetics! Often crazy and random, but still fun to discuss. :cool4:

On the topic of strong vs. weak genes, it is possible for the results to be mixed as with Rhaegar's kids. The Targ genes don't have to be dominant to override other genes - they just need to have "more" of them.

To use my family as an example: Black haired father and blond mother = 3 blond daughters. Logically, that shouldn't have happened. One of us should have had dark hair. But we simply had "more" blond genes in the mix - my mother comes from a family of mostly light-haired people and a large percentage of my fathers family is blond or redheaded - he got his black hair from his mother, who married into a Swedish/Irish family.

So we have two parents with a strong background of blond genes who produced all-blond kids, even with the dark hair gene, which is usually dominant. Also, that so-called dominant black haired gene seems to have disappeared from our family - none of the 4 grandchildren have it either, all of them turned up blond.

I would guess the Targs are no different - they have inbred so long that even when they have half-Targ kids, the silver hair and purple eyes can still show up, as they simply have "more" of those genes.

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