R+L=J v.21

[Buried Treasure]

Rhaella would come after Dany as she was Aerys' sister.

If Aerys had had a younger brother he would have come after Dany and before Rhaella; under Targ succession after Viserys.

My issue against Robert inheriting before Rhaenys isn't so much about male claimants through the female line as about the stability of the realm. One of the 7 great lords in the kingdom inheriting the throne would radically alter the power dynamic and destabilise the realm. That is to be avoided and a Targaryen - even a daughter, would be preferable. If the inheritence came down to a choice between Rhaenys or Robert wouldn't the Houses most loyal to the Targs (the Martells, Daynes, Darrys...) favour the Targ for the throne - even if it means somewhat relaxing the rule on patrimony?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I honestly don't know, that's why it would be helpful if Martin would explain the succession a little more and specify how many generations back they go when looking for a male claimant. Thing is, though, you could make the argument that even though Rhaenys is legally a Targaryen, she is as much a Dornish girl as she is a Targ. So you'd still have a great house at a significant political advantage if she became queen, even though her last name isn't Martell. On the other hand, I think that if a Baratheon came to the throne in normal circumstances, he might very well change his name to Targaryen for dynastic purposes.

[imany]

The show kind of hints at this anecdotally. Septa Mordane tells Sansa that if she only has girls, the throne goes to Tommen. Renly tells Loras that he's fourth in line — after Joffrey, Tommen and Stannis but before Myrcella.

Ah, I haven't watched that far in the show. That said, it does seem like male-preference would only apply to immediate family and cousins. Maybe it isn't explained because it will have more bearing later in the series.

[Lady Octarina]

Just wondering, why are we trying to figure out Targaryen rules of succession? lol

Well, the important thing is, if we go with Apple Martini's scheme, if YG is not Aegon and Jon is not Rhaegar's legitimate son, then Stannis still comes before Daenerys according to their law, and that makes me happy :laugh: (even though it doesn't really matter much when wars and dragons are involved, but let's just forget that part).

[Serie]

Just wondering, why are we trying to figure out Targaryen rules of succession? lol

Well, the important thing is, if we go with Apple Martini's scheme, if YG is not Aegon and Jon is not Rhaegar's legitimate son, then Stannis still comes before Daenerys according to their law, and that makes me happy :laugh: (even though it doesn't really matter much when wars and dragons are involved, but let's just forget that part).

That's why!!!

because we're trying to think of a schema where Stannis won't be the rightful heir of the Iron throne under NO circumstance WHATSOEVER :P :P

[joking :D]

[Waterfall]

Westeros' political climate didn't exactly change into something where it would matter if you were the rightfull heir. Danearys, Stannis, Aegon (real or not real) all have a claim. The one that will grab it in the end is the one with the most power at their disposal.

[Serie]

Westeros' political climate didn't exactly change into something where it would matter if you were the rightfull heir. Danearys, Stannis, Aegon (real or not real) all have a claim. The one that will grab it in the end is the one with the most power at their disposal.

fair enough. But "power" can be interpreted in so many ways. And the strength of one's claim may at least grant the favour of certain houses (well, at least this would work for guys like Ned).

[Waterfall]

Stannis had the best claim before the war, but we all agree that someone like Renly, whose claim sucked (excuse mon french) got the entire Reach (forget the Redwynes) behind him just because he's better in interacting with both smallfolk and lords. Or just because he's more easily used as a puppet, also an option!

If, for example, Dany comes to the Red Keep where all the lords are gathered and isn't changed in her behavior, which means she will tell them what to do exactly how she wants it, she'll have a hard time convincing them. Except offcourse if a nice dragon would stand behind her!

[Lady Octarina]

If, for example, Dany comes to the Red Keep where all the lords are gathered and isn't changed in her behavior, which means she will tell them what to do exactly how she wants it, she'll have a hard time convincing them. Except offcourse if a nice dragon would stand behind her!

And that's the thing, neither Daenerys nor YG are the compromising types - they're even worse than Stannis! Because the man doesn't compromise because of what he thinks is right; those two brats won't compromise because they're too arrogant to even contemplate the possibility. And, well, Daenerys will have a dragon, but what of the other two? Who's to say who'll have them? Besides, the Citadel killed the dragons before, didn't they? Whoever they support now will have a powerful ally.

Power is not the main thing here, but cunning and a strategic mind. And who are the two people in Westeros with a claim to the throne that seem to have those?

[B'Tash]

Power is not the main thing here, but cunning and a strategic mind. And who are the two people in Westeros with a claim to the throne that seem to have those?

If Stannis is one of these two I will have to disagree - I do not believe he has neither cunning or a strong strategic mind - left to his own devices he would be probably dead by now but he does have luck to have some good people around him (Davos and Jon to some extent) who are cunning and strategic thinkers and he is willing to listen to them, which is good for him :cool4: ).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Stannis is one of these two I will have to disagree - I do not believe he has neither cunning or a strong strategic mind - left to his own devices he would be probably dead by now but he does have luck to have some good people around him (Davos and Jon to some extent) who are cunning and strategic thinkers and he is willing to listen to them, which is good for him :cool4: ).

Go read the gift chapter and tell me that Stannis isn't cunning.

[Buried Treasure]

However cunning Stannis may be proving now he will forever remain an idiot in my mind for taking over 6 months to declare to the realm at large that he was king after Robert died.

[B'Tash]

Go read the gift chapter and tell me that Stannis isn't cunning.

I read the Gift Chapter :) but I didn't find there any proof of his cunning only that he has battle experience so he can understand what he needs to do against his enemy, that he is inteligent enough and has enough life experience to understand at least to some extent what's going on around him. But, what would happen if Jon didn't advised him in regards to Karstarks trechery, for example? Or, if he didn't listen to Ser Justin and leave after Battle of Blackwater was lost (the thing he is reproaching Ser Justin for)?

OK, I know I am maybe to harsh on him - I tend to be like that toward characters I do not like (I do find him interesting, though :D).

[Independent George]

I think Stannis is a great tactician, but a lousy strategist, and an even worse politician.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I read the Gift Chapter :) but I didn't find there any proof of his cunning only that he has battle experience so he can understand what he needs to do against his enemy, that he is inteligent enough and has enough life experience to understand at least to some extent what's going on around him. But, what would happen if Jon didn't advised him in regards to Karstarks trechery, for example? Or, if he didn't listen to Ser Justin and leave after Battle of Blackwater was lost (the thing he is reproaching Ser Justin for)?

I presume that Stannis learned about the Karstarks from the banker, not Jon's letter, which he received later.

If Stannis pulls off what I think he will with the Boltons, the talk of him being a bad strategist should cease. He gets too much shit for losing Blackwater — which required Tyrion to use a crazy plan with the wildfire, and the Tyrell forces showing up at the last minute — and not enough for other things he's done, like holding Storm's End, defeating the ironborn fleet, and stopping the wildlings. And unlike some people I could name, he recognizes merit in other people and is willing to listen to pragmatic advice.

ETA: This has gotten way, way, way off-topic.

[zzzNitro]

Well, first of all, Hi to you all, I am new here and english is not my first language so please excuse me if I have some weird sense for words.

I just read and interview of the writers of GoT from HBO where they said that the "test" that GRRM gave them to do or not the series was to name Jon's mother to which the answered and I quote "We said ‘the answer’s…X’ and we were right.", when I read it at first I thought that it was normal for anyone involved in the show and/or the books to not say whats the right answer, but then it hit me, if I was a writer a test for other writers would definetely be to see if they can foresee to where one of my stories is going, and I know this sounds weak but when you have 4 possible answer and none is sureand you have to pick one out, either you luck it out or give your best shot with what seems to be implied. Please remember that there are 2 Wyllas and Ashara that could be Jon's mother out of the rumours but only Lyanna hasn't been "officially" accepted as Jon's mother, I think that says something. Still it's just my humble opinion please be kind with you feedbak =) I'll leave the link here so you can read it for yourself.

http://www.heyuguys....-and-d-b-weiss/

EDIT: There's a line I forgot to mention, they say the answer -to 'who was Jon's mother?'- is not in the books.

[Independent George]

Wow... great link. That seems to be the closest to an official confirmation yet of the R+L=J theory.

[Corvinus85]

Well, first of all, Hi to you all, I am new here and english is not my first language so please excuse me if I have some weird sense for words.

I just read and interview of the writers of GoT from HBO where they said that the "test" that GRRM gave them to do or not the series was to name Jon's mother to which the answered and I quote "We said ‘the answer’s…X’ and we were right.", when I read it at first I thought that it was normal for anyone involved in the show and/or the books to not say whats the right answer, but then it hit me, if I was a writer a test for other writers would definetely be to see if they can foresee to where one of my stories is going, and I know this sounds weak but when you have 4 possible answer and none is sureand you have to pick one out, either you luck it out or give your best shot with what seems to be implied. Please remember that there are 2 Wyllas and Ashara that could be Jon's mother out of the rumours but only Lyanna hasn't been "officially" accepted as Jon's mother, I think that says something. Still it's just my humble opinion please be kind with you feedbak =) I'll leave the link here so you can read it for yourself.

http://www.heyuguys....-and-d-b-weiss/

EDIT: There's a line I forgot to mention, they say the answer -to 'who was Jon's mother?'- is not in the books.

If the George really asked exactly like it says there: "Who do you think Jon Snow's real mother was?" then this may confirm that Wylla is not his mother, since Wylla is the only character that Ned refers to as Jon's mother, and also the question implies that Jon's mother is dead.

[Iceborn]

I just finished trawling through the books looking for the "Jon Snow mother" comments made by in world charichters (the joy of a kindle "search" option)

here are the clues:

• In aSoS in the ride from Herrenhal Edric "Ned" Doyne tells Arya about how he and Jon where "milk brothers" and that Jon's mother was "Wylla". This fits with what Ned Stark tells robert in aGoT. However Davos is told by lord Godric of sweetsister that Jon's mother was a fisherman's daughter who saved Ned from drowning and smuggled him out of the Vale to call his banners.
  
• Lady Ashara Doyne threw herself into the sea and that she had loved Ned Stark.
  

my two theories are:

1(Ned isn't the noble guy you thaught and cheated on Catelyn) so I think that after Ned had called his banners he went south, picked up Wylla from the sisters and faught his way to Dorne (eventually) after confronting the last of the kingsguard his new lover Ashara found out about Wylla, and the fact that Ned killed her kin and jumped off a cliff. Jon and Edric where brought up together until it was time for Jon to move north.

2 (the conspiricy) Wylla was a camp follower that Ned used a a wet nurse for Jon after finding him as a baby with his sister.

[zzzNitro]

If the George really asked exactly like it says there: "Who do you think Jon Snow's real mother was?" then this may confirm that Wylla is not his mother, since Wylla is the only character that Ned refers to as Jon's mother, and also the question implies that Jon's mother is dead.

But it also says that the answer is not in the books, and the characters mentioned as Jon's mother in the books are Wylla, the fisherman's daughter and Ashara Dayne, the only one who is not in the books is Lyana.