R+L=J v.21

[Maginor]

After reading that interview, I'm more convinced than ever that Lyanna was the mother. At that point David and Dan probably had just as much information as any of us, and at least for me Lyanna was always the prime suspect (after having read all the theories). If given only one guess, I think most fans (who have been fans for a while and know all the theories) would say that. Not that the other theories are illegitimate, I'm just saying that I think that is the most likely thing they would have guessed given only one guess.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

After reading that interview, I'm more convinced than ever that Lyanna was the mother. At that point David and Dan probably had just as much information as any of us, and at least for me Lyanna was always the prime suspect (after having read all the theories). If given only one guess, I think most fans (who have been fans for a while and know all the theories) would say that. Not that the other theories are illegitimate, I'm just saying that I think that is the most likely thing they would have guessed given only one guess.

Well that, and I can see the question being used to judge the writers' creativity and their attention to detail. There's nothing creative or impressive about picking Wylla or Ashara or a fisherman's daughter; that's just parroting what we've been told outright at one point or another. If someone wants to adapt the material, they should show a talent for picking up on stuff that isn't said outright or spoonfed. And saying that Lyanna is Jon's mother is really the only option to achieve that, of the four options we have. I can't imagine them saying, "Yeah it's Wylla, I mean that's what Ned said, right?" and Martin going. "Yes that's correct! Go make the show!"

[pity party]

If Lyanna was not with child from prince Rhaegar, then having 3 kingsguard protecting her (3 times the number of swords protecting the actual king) would make no sense.

Beyond that, 2/3 of those kingsguard were heavy hitters. The white bull and the sword of the morning are spoken of as heroes from all accounts. The kingsguard does not swear oaths to protect concubines of a prince, nor ignore the lives of the prince's married family, the king and king's family. Everything about them being there makes no sense if Lyanna isn't Rhaegar's baby mama.

That being said, I am eager to see if Howland Reed ever leaves the bogs. I doubt Ned Stark would have been able to hide a baby the entire trip from dorne to moat caitlin.

[Independent George]

Well that, and I can see the question being used to judge the writers' creativity and their attention to detail. There's nothing creative or impressive about picking Wylla or Ashara or a fisherman's daughter; that's just parroting what we've been told outright at one point or another. If someone wants to adapt the material, they should show a talent for picking up on stuff that isn't said outright or spoonfed. And saying that Lyanna is Jon's mother is really the only option to achieve that, of the four we options we have. I can't imagine them saying, "Yeah it's Wylla, I mean that's what Ned said, right?" and Martin going. "Yes that's correct! Go make the show!"

On the other hand, the publication of ASOIAF coincides remarkably with the rise of the internet, and R+L=J seems to have been a popular theory almost from the start. It's a much less impressive deduction when entering "Who is Jon Snow's Mother?" into Google takes you straight to the R+L=J theory.

On the third hand, most producers don't actually read books, but instead have interns read everything and write up a synopsis for them. Like Van Halen's brown M&M's, R+L=J probably is in fact a good shibboleth to identify a producer who really is familiar with the books.

[Dornish]

If Lyanna was not with child from prince Rhaegar, then having 3 kingsguard protecting her (3 times the number of swords protecting the actual king) would make no sense.

Beyond that, 2/3 of those kingsguard were heavy hitters. The white bull and the sword of the morning are spoken of as heroes from all accounts. The kingsguard does not swear oaths to protect concubines of a prince, nor ignore the lives of the prince's married family, the king and king's family. Everything about them being there makes no sense if Lyanna isn't Rhaegar's baby mama.

What if they were off on important missions during the sack of KL and, with no one left to protect, set a trap for Robert?

[Maginor]

And they wouldn't have googled it unless they were already invested in the work. They didn't know that they would get this question.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And they wouldn't have googled it unless they were already invested in the work. They didn't know that they would get this question.

Exactly. I don't buy the "Oh but they could have Googled it" thing. Not if they weren't anticipating the question and were asked on the spot.

[zzzNitro]

Exactly. I don't buy the "Oh but they could have Googled it" thing. Not if they weren't anticipating the question and were asked on the spot.

Agreed. For me the line "its not on the books" says it all.

[DoctorSwerve]

I have already come to the conclusion that R+L=J. But I just got sold again watching the show.

Watching the first episode again on DVD, when Jon talks to Benjen about joining the Night's Watch, Benjen tells him that he wouldn't be able to have a wife and kids. Jon says that he doesn't care about all that, and Benjen immediately responded that he would if he knew what that means.

Why would Benjen respond that way when Jon already said he knew he couldn't have a wife and kids unless Benjen was alluding to the fact that there was something special about the kids, such as the fact that they have royal blood? I got excited when I saw this part again.

[Lady Octarina]

If Stannis is one of these two I will have to disagree - I do not believe he has neither cunning or a strong strategic mind - left to his own devices he would be probably dead by now but he does have luck to have some good people around him (Davos and Jon to some extent) who are cunning and strategic thinkers and he is willing to listen to them, which is good for him :cool4: ).

Jon's help doesn't mean Stannis couldn't figure a strategy on his own, only that he wasn't that well-informed. And I won't deny Davos's importance as an advisor, but his main contribution (sending him to the Wall) was also a case of Stannis not having the information about that. But yes, I meant Jon and Stannis (and Tyrion, but he's a different case ^_^ ).

I presume that Stannis learned about the Karstarks from the banker, not Jon's letter, which he received later.

If Stannis pulls off what I think he will with the Boltons, the talk of him being a bad strategist should cease. He gets too much shit for losing Blackwater — which required Tyrion to use a crazy plan with the wildfire, and the Tyrell forces showing up at the last minute — and not enough for other things he's done, like holding Storm's End, defeating the ironborn fleet, and stopping the wildlings. And unlike some people I could name, he recognizes merit in other people and is willing to listen to pragmatic advice.

:agree:

Well, first of all, Hi to you all, I am new here and english is not my first language so please excuse me if I have some weird sense for words.

I just read and interview of the writers of GoT from HBO where they said that the "test" that GRRM gave them to do or not the series was to name Jon's mother to which the answered and I quote "We said ‘the answer’s…X’ and we were right.", when I read it at first I thought that it was normal for anyone involved in the show and/or the books to not say whats the right answer, but then it hit me, if I was a writer a test for other writers would definetely be to see if they can foresee to where one of my stories is going, and I know this sounds weak but when you have 4 possible answer and none is sureand you have to pick one out, either you luck it out or give your best shot with what seems to be implied. Please remember that there are 2 Wyllas and Ashara that could be Jon's mother out of the rumours but only Lyanna hasn't been "officially" accepted as Jon's mother, I think that says something. Still it's just my humble opinion please be kind with you feedbak =) I'll leave the link here so you can read it for yourself.

http://www.heyuguys....-and-d-b-weiss/

EDIT: There's a line I forgot to mention, they say the answer -to 'who was Jon's mother?'- is not in the books.

THANK YOU! I mentioned this on a previous version of this thread, I believe, but I didn't have the link for the interview. But yes, hat was also what confirmed to me that R+L=J is correct.

Hmm, just something that came to mind now. What are the chances of the present Lord Hightower knowing about Jon? Wasn't Ser Gerold his uncle? I'm aware that they would probably have sworn to keep it a secret, I just ask: What if? What if that's the reason why he keeps himself isolated in his tower? What if that will be his House's move in the end, supporting Jon, confirming his identity, if that's ever necessary? Because I reckon Howland Reed and Wylla probably won't be enough...

[zzzNitro]

THANK YOU! I mentioned this on a previous version of this thread, I believe, but I didn't have the link for the interview. But yes, hat was also what confirmed to me that R+L=J is correct.

Hmm, just something that came to mind now. What are the chances of the present Lord Hightower knowing about Jon? Wasn't Ser Gerold his uncle? I'm aware that they would probably have sworn to keep it a secret, I just ask: What if? What if that's the reason why he keeps himself isolated in his tower? What if that will be his House's move in the end, supporting Jon, confirming his identity, if that's ever necessary? Because I reckon Howland Reed and Wylla probably won't be enough...

You are welcome =)

I was just reviwing some articles in awoiaf and couldn't find who was the squire of the White Bull, if it happens to be Leyton then I guess it could be right, but House Hightower already supported Renly during the war of the five kings so it would look really bad if they suddenly say something like "hey remember when we supported someone who had no claim to the throne? well we actually know the real king and we support him now". In the Leyton case (if he knows), I think that if he ever does something for Jon's sake it will probably be just him, as a witness or the closest thing to it, so to not involve his house I mean.

On the could-be supporters for Jon's case I think Darkstar knows more than he has shown, after all he has the name of the White Bull and the Sword of the morning was at the tower of joy, and when Ned went to Ashara to return the sword he had Jon already and got him a wet nurse there too.

[Independent George]

Agreed. For me the line "its not on the books" says it all.

Yes, it seems to me there are now exactly three possibilities:

1. R + L = J

2. Some crackpot theory most of us have long dismissed as idiotic because it's, well, idiotic.P + B = PBJ.

3. Something which nobody has yet identified or publicized in the last fifteen years.

I'm going with #1, but I expect we'll still be debating it until WOW gets published.

[Screaming Knight]

Well, first of all, Hi to you all, I am new here and english is not my first language so please excuse me if I have some weird sense for words.

I just read and interview of the writers of GoT from HBO where they said that the "test" that GRRM gave them to do or not the series was to name Jon's mother to which the answered and I quote "We said ‘the answer’s…X’ and we were right.", when I read it at first I thought that it was normal for anyone involved in the show and/or the books to not say whats the right answer, but then it hit me, if I was a writer a test for other writers would definetely be to see if they can foresee to where one of my stories is going, and I know this sounds weak but when you have 4 possible answer and none is sureand you have to pick one out, either you luck it out or give your best shot with what seems to be implied. Please remember that there are 2 Wyllas and Ashara that could be Jon's mother out of the rumours but only Lyanna hasn't been "officially" accepted as Jon's mother, I think that says something. Still it's just my humble opinion please be kind with you feedbak =) I'll leave the link here so you can read it for yourself.

http://www.heyuguys....-and-d-b-weiss/

EDIT: There's a line I forgot to mention, they say the answer -to 'who was Jon's mother?'- is not in the books.

This was probably huge for GRRM to guess right. He probably would've been concerned had they answered wylla or incorrectly. If they had someone else in mind they might not have been able to capture the ambiguity surrounding his parentage.

[Gala]

Jon's help doesn't mean Stannis couldn't figure a strategy on his own, only that he wasn't that well-informed. And I won't deny Davos's importance as an advisor, but his main contribution (sending him to the Wall) was also a case of Stannis not having the information about that. But yes, I meant Jon and Stannis (and Tyrion, but he's a different case ^_^ ).

I was just rereading DwD and it is pretty straightforward there that if not Jon, Stannis would be crashed already. If Jon didn't give Stannis his council (mind you not only once, but few times) about the North and didn't show where to find warriors (mountain clans) and how to gain their favor, Stannis would be dead already at Dreadforth with a little help of Karstarks. But yeah, he was smart enough to listen a council about a North (where he is a total stranger and knows nothing) from a northman, moreover, from the son of the Warden of the North, who knows everyone and everything about the North. That is brilliant, I would never think to do the same :) Joking.

Really, Stannis is a good warrior, commander, general, but not a cunning and very smart politician, he is too inflexible and just (just like Ned was), also harsh and incredibly stubborn. But I must admit among those, who claim the throne, he is the best, although I don't like him that much (I like Davos and Jon more).

[Peach Fuzz]

Well, first of all, Hi to you all, I am new here and english is not my first language so please excuse me if I have some weird sense for words.

I just read and interview of the writers of GoT from HBO where they said that the "test" that GRRM gave them to do or not the series was to name Jon's mother to which the answered and I quote "We said ‘the answer’s…X’ and we were right.", when I read it at first I thought that it was normal for anyone involved in the show and/or the books to not say whats the right answer, but then it hit me, if I was a writer a test for other writers would definetely be to see if they can foresee to where one of my stories is going, and I know this sounds weak but when you have 4 possible answer and none is sureand you have to pick one out, either you luck it out or give your best shot with what seems to be implied. Please remember that there are 2 Wyllas and Ashara that could be Jon's mother out of the rumours but only Lyanna hasn't been "officially" accepted as Jon's mother, I think that says something. Still it's just my humble opinion please be kind with you feedbak =) I'll leave the link here so you can read it for yourself.

http://www.heyuguys....-and-d-b-weiss/

EDIT: There's a line I forgot to mention, they say the answer -to 'who was Jon's mother?'- is not in the books.

The question should have been asked who is jons real father but maybe that's to much of a give away .

[Hedge Lawyer]

I have already come to the conclusion that R+L=J. But I just got sold again watching the show.

Watching the first episode again on DVD, when Jon talks to Benjen about joining the Night's Watch, Benjen tells him that he wouldn't be able to have a wife and kids. Jon says that he doesn't care about all that, and Benjen immediately responded that he would if he knew what that means.

Why would Benjen respond that way when Jon already said he knew he couldn't have a wife and kids unless Benjen was alluding to the fact that there was something special about the kids, such as the fact that they have royal blood? I got excited when I saw this part again.

I just thought that Benjen was talking about sex and family in general.

[Hedge Lawyer]

I'm new to this theory (I was first introduced to ASoIaF through the HBO show, and I just finished reading the 5 books), so forgive me if these questions have been answered, but:

1. Why wouldn't Ned tell Cat about Jon's true parentage? Why would he make his and their lives miserable when he could just explain things to Cat? I don't get the sense that Ned mistrusted Cat. If this theory is true, then that seems to be a plot hole, or at least out of character for Ned.

2. If Jon is a Targ, then why did his hand burn so severely when he burned the wight in GoT? Is Dany the only Targ with fire resistance?

[The guy from the Vale]

1. When Catelyn discovered Jon's existence, she'd known Ned for a year only, and had not seen him during that year. So while they started trusting one another, Ned couldn't trust her in the beginning of their marriage. There are two other things to consider, too. Cat not knowing about Jon's parentage gave her plausible deniability in case Robert found out about Jon, so only Ned would have to suffer for his betrayal; and it's quite probable that Ned had to promise Lyanna not to tell anyone about Jon ("Promise me, Ned.")

2. Targaryens are not fireproof. heat resistant, yes, but not fireproof. There are stories about Targs being killed by dragon-, wild- and ordinary fire. Daenerys' survival of the pyre was probably only possible because it was part of a blood- and fire-magical ritual.

[kg1982]

1. Why wouldn't Ned tell Cat about Jon's true parentage? Why would he make his and their lives miserable when he could just explain things to Cat? I don't get the sense that Ned mistrusted Cat. If this theory is true, then that seems to be a plot hole, or at least out of character for Ned.

It was an arranged marriage and he barely knew her at the time. It protected her and the rest of the children with plausible deniability. It protected Jon because if Cat started treating Jon with loving care than it would cause people to look closer at the circumstances surrounding Jon's birth.

2. If Jon is a Targ, then why did his hand burn so severely when he burned the wight in GoT? Is Dany the only Targ with fire resistance?

Targs are not fire resistant. Dany and the dragons was a moment of magic. She couldn't walk through the fire to hatch more dragon eggs.

[Hedge Lawyer]

1. When Catelyn discovered Jon's existence, she'd known Ned for a year only, and had not seen him during that year. So while they started trusting one another, Ned couldn't trust her in the beginning of their marriage. There are two other things to consider, too. Cat not knowing about Jon's parentage gave her plausible deniability in case Robert found out about Jon, so only Ned would have to suffer for his betrayal; and it's quite probable that Ned had to promise Lyanna not to tell anyone about Jon ("Promise me, Ned.")

The plausible deniability angle might work, but it's pretty weak explanation IMO. Given what we know about the characters, It's hard to accept that Ned would allow a situation in which both Cat and Jon are miserable for decades. Cat obviously hated and resented Jon, and that hatred and resentment affected Ned & Cat's marriage. Ned cared for Cat and Jon both. I don't see why he would allow it to go on when he could end it with a simple explanation to Cat.

2. Targaryens are not fireproof. heat resistant, yes, but not fireproof. There are stories about Targs being killed by dragon-, wild- and ordinary fire. Daenerys' survival of the pyre was probably only possible because it was part of a blood- and fire-magical ritual.

Dany also survived being burned by Drogon's fire in ADWD. It burnt off her hair, nothing more. Maybe Dany is a special type of Targaryen.

I'm not saying that these points undermine the R+L=J theory. It's just that the theory isn't really appealing to me- it makes the story a little cheesy, IMO. I think that the story is better if Jon is what he is- Ned's bastard. It shows that Ned is in fact human and not a charicature. It makes Jon more tragic.

My favorite thing about ASoIaF is that it avoids the standard fantasy cliche of the chosen young hero who rises up to save the world. It's why I enjoyed the Red Wedding so much- Robb was too much of a perfect wunderkind hero for my taste. ASoIaF is much more political and interesting than the typical fantasy series. (my favorite scenes in the entire series are those in ACoK in which Tyrion, Littlefinger, and Varys are plotting with and against each other). Having Jon be this secret Targaryen savior (a "Dragon Reborn" if you will) goes against the spirit of the earlier books. I liked the Rhaegar and Lyanna story as background establishing character motivation- it helped give Ned and Robert depth. However, I hope that Rhaegar and Lyanna stay that way- part of the past, not part of the active story. It's bad enough that all of the sudden Prince Aegon is back. There are enough claimaints for the throne as it is- why do we need to resurrect / reveal more claimants?