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R+L=J v.21


Angalin

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I think the Sean Bean interview with New York Magazine is even more revealing where this subject is concerned. Although, really, how surprising is any of this? Most readers, or at least the ones that post here, back the theory.

Actually, I've just read the quote again, and I have to say, that really is good evidence. Because the books (excluding the last one, because I gather they were only talking about the first four) float the possibility of Ashara and Wylla being the mother, so who else besides Lyanna would they have guessed?

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I see no reason for Eddard to tell ANYONE the secret ( R+L=J), think about it for a moment.. What for?

- Jon is the legitimate heir of a Throne that was lost 15 years ago, his house almost extinct and ruined.

When Eddard was about to die he considered writing a letter to Jon, but Varys told he would read it, so he prefer to die with the secret. Bran dreamed about Eddard needs to talk with Jon.

Facts by the Time of Eddard's Death and Why I think its completely useless to reveal the secret at that moment:

- Cersei&Joffrey aka Lannister would be Queen/King supported by Tywin.

- Stannis&Renly as legitimate heir by that moment could rise up and get the Throne if well supported.

In any of those scenarios the spreading of truth about Jon would get his head chopped in less time than a "Hodor" .

So, Eddard dies with the secret kept his promise to his sister about protecting her son, only a few other people could know the secret (Lord Reed) but its unlikely to get revealed.

Jon lives happily and honorable life as a bastard that is member of the Nights Watch.

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That's because she hates Jon because she thinks that Jon's the living reminder of Ned's infidelity. Jon represents Cat's shame. If Cat knows that Jon is Ned's nephew, her reason for hating Jon vanishes. It leaves the hypothetical situation in which she is somehow forced to choose between keeping the secret and protecting her children, but that situation isn't presented in the story. I'm not sure how such a situation could come to pass

She might still hate him.. He'd represent a danger to her family. Ned is putting her children in danger by harboring his sister's son. It represents treason. Better that Cat not know.

And the situation itself isn't that hypothetical. Imagine if Cat had known about Jon and traded his life to the Lannisters for Sansa and Arya.

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And the situation itself isn't that hypothetical. Imagine if Cat had known about Jon and traded his life to the Lannisters for Sansa and Arya.

Really good point. Ned even ponders this sort of thing in Game of Thrones. "What would Catelyn do if it came down to her children versus someone else?" or however it was worded. If Catelyn got desperate enough or was sure that it would get her daughters back, I think she would give them Jon if she knew he was a Targaryen. I'm not condemning her, just stating what I think she would do as a mother.

It's better for both parties — Catelyn and Jon — if Catelyn doesn't know the truth.

And I'll ask Hedge Lawyer the same question I ask other doubters:

What's keeping Ned from telling Jon (or Catelyn) the truth if his mother is Wylla or Ashara or a fisherman's daughter? The secrecy only makes sense if some level of danger is involved, and Lyanna and Rhaegar being Jon's parents is the only solution that would justify such rampant secrecy. There are numerous perfectly valid reasons why Ned wouldn't tell Cat the truth, Jon's safety and her own being the primary ones.

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I agree with Apple Martini. If Lyanna wasn't the mother, then why was it so dangerous to tell anyone who was the mother? What was the terrible secret Ned had been keeping for all these years that was plagueing him in his sleep? You would somehow have to come up with different answers to these questions. Whether or not you think this is bad writing or a cliché is of course a different question. I don't think it is.

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If Jon was Ashara's son, he could be trying to protect her honor posthumously. Driving someone to suicide would keep a person up at night. I don't think it's impossible for there to be other explanations.

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For N+A=J, the timeline doesn't add up. Ashara was presumably Elia's handmaiden, so there's little chance she could have had a nookie with Ned during the war. Plus, Ashara Dayne might well be alive and kicking... or praying? (Some believe her to be Septa Lemore: her age fits, and she has given birth before. Plus, we don't see her hair...)

And you'd still have to explain Dany's vision in the House of the Undying. Who is the blue rose on the wall of ice, if not Jon, as the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar (blue winter roses being associated with the legend of Bael the Bard, Lyanna and the Harrenhall Tourney...)

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If Jon was Ashara's son, he could be trying to protect her honor posthumously. Driving someone to suicide would keep a person up at night. I don't think it's impossible for there to be other explanations.

What use would be bolting the barn when the horse is already out? Half the kingdom already gossip about Ned and Ashara, even Catelyn has heard it. Ashara's honour is already besmirched, anyway: why not tell at least the wife?

- This is a hypothetical question, though, since the Harrenhall tourney was about a year before Lyanna's supposed abduction, then there was the war, which was hardly a time when Ned could hang out with Ashara, and, boom! a child appears at Winterfell. Younger than Robb, meaning conceived well during the war.

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It's all hypothetical. Sure, maybe the rumor was already out, but 1) Ned IS the sort who thinks closing people's mouths is the way to stop rumors and 2) if the theories that Ashara told Ned about ToJ are correct, doesn't that imply that Ashara and Ned were communicating during the war? It's not -that- impossible for them to have gotten it on. Same with Wylla, the fisherwoman, etc. There isn't enough information about them one way or another.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that this reason, by itself, wouldn't be enough to chalk up Jon not being Ned's kid. There are plenty of other (and better) reasons.

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Ashara and Ned might have communicated after the Sack of King's Landing. Before, that was rather unlikely. Ashara telling Ned some time between the sack and the lifting of the siege of Storm's End makes the most sense. Timeline-wise. Otherwise, what would have stopped Robert and Ned from freeing the Stormlands first, visiting the ToJ and only then marching on KL?

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1. Jon being Rhaegar's means about as much as him being Robb Stark's heir - it does nothing to rescind his oath to the Night's watch. Aemon had a better claim than Egg, but he abdicated because he was already sworn to the Citadel. Even if Rhaegar married Lyanna and Jon is his legitimate heir, he is still a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, and can't lay claim to the throne.

2. I disagree with the whole notion of this being a cliche; the hidden heir has its roots in folklore and mythology, not the fantasy literature from which it is often derived. It is no more a cliche than Jaime's redemption arc is a cliche - it's a universal theme that recurs throughout literature for the simple reason that it works. It's the reason people are still looking for Anastasia Romanov, or the 12th Imam. It resonates with us.

3. Everyone believes Ned had a bastard son during the war because it apparently happens all the time. Tyrion made a point of noting that whenever there's an army, there are camp followers. Catelyn made a point of not being hurt by Ned being unfaithful while at war, only that he brought his bastard son home with him to raise himself.

4. Robert absolutely would have killed Jon if he knew he was Rhaegar's heir. Or, more accurately, he would have had Varys or Littlefinger arrange for Jon to die while he went on drinking and whoring and pretending everything conformed to his pre-existing worldview. After the sack of King's Landing, Ned and Robert had a falling out over the dead Targaryan children; they were only brought back together after Lyanna's death. If Robert ever learned that Lyanna had a child with Rhaegar, nothing would have stopped him from taking out his wrath on Jon, and probably Ned, too.

5. Catelyn and Jon can't be trusted to keep the secret. Really, Howland Reed can't be trusted, either, but Ned has no choice in the matter, but fortunately the Crannogmen are more or less isolated from the entire world. The more people who know the truth, the more likely it is that it is revealed, even accidentally. We see firsthand how quickly and easily rumors spread and magnify - about Robb's mostrous wolf, or Dany's wantonness, Ned's treason, or Tyrion's demonic evil. The slightest slip overheard by a servant that Jon is Lyanna's son quickly turns into solid intel that Ned Stark is raising an army to restore his nephew as the Targaryan heir.

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1. Jon being Rhaegar's means about as much as him being Robb Stark's heir - it does nothing to rescind his oath to the Night's watch. Aemon had a better claim than Egg, but he abdicated because he was already sworn to the Citadel. Even if Rhaegar married Lyanna and Jon is his legitimate heir, he is still a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, and can't lay claim to the throne.

I agree with all your points except this one. There are many ways Jon can leave the NW behind and accept the Crown:

1 - he dies and comes back

2 - the Wall falls and the Watch is disbanded

3 - a king relieves him of his duty (if he is the rightful king, could he do this himself?)

4 - he sworn to protect the realm of men against darkness or something - what if he understands that being king is the best way for him to do so?

I think the main problem is not his being a sworn brother, but his being the LC. But, the men of the NW made it clear that they didn't want him as their leader, and there is always the chance a more fitting man (that is, one they won't stab in the end) will be chosen. I really don't know how that works, we're never informed of this part of the laws of Westeros, but if the men of the NW can elect a Commander, who's to say they can't take him from the position as well?

And other possibilities I'm too lazy to consider.

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1 - he dies and comes back

2 - the Wall falls and the Watch is disbanded

3 - a king relieves him of his duty (if he is the rightful king, could he do this himself?)

4 - he sworn to protect the realm of men against darkness or something - what if he understands that being king is the best way for him to do so?

I think #2 is the most likely scenario; I'm just saying that, in his head, Jon's oath the Night's Watch trumps any desire for personal glory. Winterfell tempted him because it's his home; I think the Iron Throne will look to him like a poisoned gift at best, no matter what his lineage.

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I can see not telling Cat at first, but not after 5 years? 10 years? Seems farfetched to me. Cat wouldn't have to smother Jon in kisses, but surely it would be better to raise a kid in a household in which his step-mother didn't hate him. Again, this doesn't disprove the theory. I just think that it makes a story based on the theory weaker than it would be if Jon were simply Ned's bastard.

If Ned told Cat about Jon, i think she would still hate him. Being the hidden prince puts her kids at risk. The only way Ned could keep the secret was to tell no one!!!

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I think #2 is the most likely scenario; I'm just saying that, in his head, Jon's oath the Night's Watch trumps any desire for personal glory. Winterfell tempted him because it's his home; I think the Iron Throne will look to him like a poisoned gift at best, no matter what his lineage.

Jon has fulfilled his oath to the nights watch, he died at his post!!!! He's done!!! When he comes back, however he comes back, I think he will defend the realm as king and unite/protect his family!! As Robb wanted!!!

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I think #2 is the most likely scenario; I'm just saying that, in his head, Jon's oath the Night's Watch trumps any desire for personal glory. Winterfell tempted him because it's his home; I think the Iron Throne will look to him like a poisoned gift at best, no matter what his lineage.

Jon has fulfilled his oath to the nights watch, he died at his post!!!! He's done!!! When he comes back, however he comes back, I think he will defend the realm as king and unite/protect his family!! As Robb wanted!!!

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