R+L=J v.21

[Cinder Stark Targaryn]

I think #2 is the most likely scenario; I'm just saying that, in his head, Jon's oath the Night's Watch trumps any desire for personal glory. Winterfell tempted him because it's his home; I think the Iron Throne will look to him like a poisoned gift at best, no matter what his lineage.

Jon has fulfilled his oath to the nights watch, he died at his post!!!! He's done!!! When he comes back, however he comes back, I think he will defend the realm as king and unite/protect his family!! As Robb wanted!!!

[DoctorSwerve]

I just thought that Benjen was talking about sex and family in general.

You could be right, however Jon said he didn't care about all that, and THEN Benjen said you would if you knew what the meant. It's the "meaning" part. If Benjen was only talking about the fact that sex feels good and it's quite swell to have kids, I don't think he would have replied to Jon the way he did. I think that he was implying that there was importance to Jon having kids, which is an important fact since why would his offspring mean anything if he was just a bastard?

I think that Benjen knows that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna which is why he took the black in the first place. Just a hunch.

[Gentso]

That would explain why Ned is almost in tears in the show when Jon asks about his mother. : )

[Gentso]

GRRM could of been allowing for multiple "correct" answers. He was likely just making sure they actually read the books.

But their answer was correct, that's the clincher. Those guys definitely read the books and are big fans, so the answer they came up with was surely Lyanna wouldn't you agree?

[Greywolf2375]

Either way after all the build up it seems unlikely that the reveal can meet the expectations.

Whose expectations though? The small (though vocal) members of on line communities that scour each letter for its tertiary meaning, or the majority of readers that haven't seen the Three Stooges reference? Look at the number of threads that have existed in the "I never saw THAT in my read...". I don't want him to try to write it to satisfy the minority readership if it goes overboard for the majority in its compexlty.

[Faint]

The part that makes the quote so revealing is "and the answer is not in the books." As everyone well knows, Wylla and Ashara are suggested in the books, more than once in each case. Lyanna, of course, is not. And you have to wonder, what other possible mystery candidate could they have guessed?

[Gentso]

I think the Sean Bean interview with New York Magazine is even more revealing where this subject is concerned. Although, really, how surprising is any of this? Most readers, or at least the ones that post here, back the theory.

I just looked it up! He said, "Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought." Goes along why what I just posted about Ned looking so distraught when Jon asks about his mother and the stuff at the Tower of the Hand website.

The evidence for this theory is so overwhemling it's pretty hard not to call it fact. : )

[protar]

The part that makes the quote so revealing is "and the answer is not in the books." As everyone well knows, Wylla and Ashara are suggested in the books, more than once in each case. Lyanna, of course, is not. And you have to wonder, what other possible mystery candidate could they have guessed?

Hodor?

[Faint]

I just looked it up! He said, "Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought." Goes along why what I just posted about Ned looking so distraught when Jon asks about his mother and the stuff at the Tower of the Hand website.

The evidence for this theory is so overwhemling it's pretty hard not to call it fact. : )

Yeah, Sean Bean was definitely being way too open in that interview. If you read between the lines, he almost confirms it.

Here is the part of the interview I brought up for reference for those that have not read it:

Interviewer: My money’s on the mother being Ned’s dead sister and the father being Rhaegar Targaryen. If Ned swore to protect his dead sister’s son from his own best friend, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own and take him in.

Sean Bean: Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

[Nukelavee]

Gentso - dude, of course Ned knows who the mother is. It doesn't mean that he knows it's his sister, either.

The whole "because this theory is the one that isn't plainly explained, it must be right" is also silly and naive. It's a basic tactic of misdirection to make people waste time on something compelling and mysterious (like the Tower events), and make the truth seem like a red herring.

It's not proof.

GRRM further muddied things with the last book. Aegon. It's possible to construct a theory that HE is Rheagar and Lynna's son. The reasons for making Ned promise would be the same - it's an heir to the defeated dynasty, at risk from Robert, and a potential tool for every power broker out there.

Varys tale of the swap before Gregor showed up could be a red herring.

Ned possibly could decide that Jon is an honourable man, and Westeros is too dangerous for the boy, and that his best way to protect his sister's son is to remove him from play for as long as possible.

I see nothing wrong with favouring one scenario over another, but none of them can be "proved" to be correct, yet.

[DoctorSwerve]

Nukelavee,

Now you are just being silly. It's obvious that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and is a Blackfyre.

[Dragon greyscale]

If the interviewer said lyanna (which is still conjecture from our point) it does not prove R+L=J. It proves ?+L=J.

This has always been my main point of scepticism to embrace the theory wholeheartedly. Most direct hints point to Lyanna being Jon's mother (promise me Ned... Jon's appearance etc. etc.) but not necessarily to Rhaegar as father.

[zzzNitro]

I think that Benjen knows that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna which is why he took the black in the first place. Just a hunch.

I always thought that the equal to a knight for the northmen was to serve in the NW, since knights is more of a new gods thing, but this works for me, Benjen learning the secret and isolating himself to the watch to leave the Stark family issues and think only of his new brothers.

[Ran]

One of the little tidbits that Anne Groell reveals in the Subtext, annotated-edition of A Game of Thrones is that George asked her the same question... when she was editing the very first book in the series.

She guessed right, apparently.

[Dragon greyscale]

Nukelavee,

Now you are just being silly. It's obvious that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and is a Blackfyre.

Obvious? Really? After spending some time here and with the books, nothing is obvious. It requires a whole lot of conjecture and knowledge about the blackfyre's to consider fake aegon as obvious. It's an interesting theory but definitely not obvious.

[Dragonfish]

I see nothing wrong with favouring one scenario over another, but none of them can be "proved" to be correct, yet.

Well, there are a few reasons to favor R+L=J over your theory:

1) The "blue rose growing from a wall of ice" vision strongly suggests that whoever Rhaegar and Lyanna's child is, he is on the Wall.

2) Ned says in AGOT that he's been "living lies" for fourteen years. Hard to figure what that refers to if Jon is actually his son.

3) Lastly, when Ned lists his children in his own mind, he leaves Jon out. Some have attempted to twist the meaning of this in such a way that Jon could still be Ned's child, but I honestly think that the best interpretation of this passage is that Ned omits Jon from the list because he is not really his child.

[Ser_Talligan]

He could have just been asking to make sure they didn't say something dumb like "Uhhh... Harry Potter? Maybe Egwene?"

[Sasha Steelsong]

If the interviewer said lyanna (which is still conjecture from our point) it does not prove R+L=J. It proves ?+L=J.

This has always been my main point of scepticism to embrace the theory wholeheartedly. Most direct hints point to Lyanna being Jon's mother (promise me Ned... Jon's appearance etc. etc.) but not necessarily to Rhaegar as father.

Time is what hints at Rhaegar as his father...for Jon to be the age he was when Catelyn arrived at Winterfell (i.e. a newborn young enough for Cat to believe that Ned fathered him after they exchanged vows - she mentions in her early chapter in GOT about how his breaking vows hurt but they were strangers so she sort of got over it with the nature of war and all) Jon's father would have to have been around Lyanna at the beginning/early-middle of the war...the only man around Lyanna at that time was Rhaegar since his taking of her (willingly or not) happened well before the war. Since Lyanna was gone for a year it isn't possible for her to have a child as young as Jon was when he arrived at Winterfell and have been pregnant before the war started. Granted other male options are the any men that Rhaegar had with him and the three KG but I don't see them as viable options, particularly when the Prince seemed to want her for himself (or they wanted each other - since on this count it doesn't matter if it was a real abduction or she went willingly). Her captivity preventing other men from getting at her and the fact that she was at the TOJ for about a year are what hints to Rhaegar as really the only real possibility.

[Independent George]

Either way after all the build up it seems unlikely that the reveal can meet the expectations.

I can sort of agree with this. At this point, I think the reveal itself and how it's done will be just as crucial as what the reveal is, if that makes sense.

The way I see it, there are three likely ways for the reveal:

1. Howland Reed appears for some reason, and tells Jon and/or Dany the story

2. Bran, Jon, and/or Dany see it explicitly in one of their visions.

3. We get a flashback to the Tower of Joy as a prologue.

These are not mutually exclusive - as the only witness, Howland Reed would necessarily have to confirm it to Jon or Dany at some point for plot purposes - but it could well pop up before then. I'm actually hoping that the penultimate book ends with the reveal, and the final book opens with a Howland Reed flashback POV.his. At this point, I think the reveal itself and how it's done will be just as crucial as what the reveal is, if that makes sense.

[Independent George]

If the interviewer said lyanna (which is still conjecture from our point) it does not prove R+L=J. It proves ?+L=J.

This has always been my main point of scepticism to embrace the theory wholeheartedly. Most direct hints point to Lyanna being Jon's mother (promise me Ned... Jon's appearance etc. etc.) but not necessarily to Rhaegar as father.

Rhaegar is the only person for whom Ned would need to conceal the paternity.