R+L=J v.21

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

Hodor.

[Dragon greyscale]

Time is what hints at Rhaegar as his father...for Jon to be the age he was when Catelyn arrived at Winterfell (i.e. a newborn young enough for Cat to believe that Ned fathered him after they exchanged vows - she mentions in her early chapter in GOT about how his breaking vows hurt but they were strangers so she sort of got over it with the nature of war and all) Jon's father would have to have been around Lyanna at the beginning/early-middle of the war...the only man around Lyanna at that time was Rhaegar since his taking of her (willingly or not) happened well before the war. Since Lyanna was gone for a year it isn't possible for her to have a child as young as Jon was when he arrived at Winterfell and have been pregnant before the war started. Granted other male options are the any men that Rhaegar had with him and the three KG but I don't see them as viable options, particularly when the Prince seemed to want her for himself (or they wanted each other - since on this count it doesn't matter if it was a real abduction or she went willingly). Her captivity preventing other men from getting at her and the fact that she was at the TOJ for about a year are what hints to Rhaegar as really the only real possibility.

Yes that's why I said "direct" hints about lyanna. Deducing the chronology is still very indirect an conjectural(as opposed to textual references like "promise me ned". Promise you what???) you basically point this out by saying that the father COULD have been any of the other men.

I'm not saying rhaegar's paternity is impossible or unlikely, it's just a lot more ambiguous in the books than lyanna's maternity.

[Ihab]

I find it amusing how I just never thought about R + L = J while reading the whole damn series last month... It's only when i came here on the forum, did I come across this theory and found it pretty... surprising.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I find it amusing how I just never thought about R + L = J while reading the whole damn series last month... It's only when i came here on the forum, did I come across this theory and found it pretty... surprising.

I never gave it a second of thought either. I still don't as a matter of fact. It would be a real mind fuck if GRRMnever reveals who Jon's mother is at all.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes that's why I said "direct" hints about lyanna. Deducing the chronology is still very indirect an conjectural(as opposed to textual references like "promise me ned". Promise you what???) you basically point this out by saying that the father COULD have been any of the other men.

I'm not saying rhaegar's paternity is impossible or unlikely, it's just a lot more ambiguous in the books than lyanna's maternity.

I think the vision of the blue rose in the wall of ice is a pretty strong indicator that Rhaegar is Jon's father. The rose isn't just a symbol of Lyanna, but also of the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Rhaegar gave Lyanna the blues roses at the tourney and made sure she had them in the Tower. A blue rose growing in the ice walls shows that the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna is on the wall.

Also, if Rhaegar is not Jon's father, that completely negates the need for the Kingsguard to still be there after Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead. They probably wouldn't even be around for Rhaegar's bastard, but they sure as hell wouldn't be around for someone else's bastard.

Finally, some of Jon's melancholic behavior sounds a lot like what Rhaegar was like when he was younger. It's possible that Jon inherited some of his father's mannerisms and temperament, if not his physical appearance. I've heard the theory that Martin's purpose in making Aemon already blind before Jon got to the Wall was that if Aemon could see, he might recognize some of Rhaegar's affectations in Jon and blow the cover.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Yes that's why I said "direct" hints about lyanna. Deducing the chronology is still very indirect an conjectural(as opposed to textual references like "promise me ned". Promise you what???) you basically point this out by saying that the father COULD have been any of the other men.

I'm not saying rhaegar's paternity is impossible or unlikely, it's just a lot more ambiguous in the books than lyanna's maternity.

Sorry but unless she actually finished the answer to promise me what? That is also indirect evidence...we know she wanted something promised but no idea what or in relation to whom and if we are being technical, the very fact that she had a baby at all is completely based on indirect inferences and conjecture.

I disagree. The chronology is what it is, it is fact. She was taken and found about a year later, and then Ned showed up with "his" bastard. That Rhaegar is the best potential father in that time really isn't a question, because I don't think anyone would have thought that Lyanna's bastard was anyone other than Rhaegar Targaryen's child given the circumstances (obviously I'm talking about if it had come out at the time that Lyanna not Ned had a bastard). Which is why Ned took such pains to end any discussion about the mother because the natural leap from discovering that Lyanna had a child was that she had it while a captive of Rhegar, since the whole kingdom knew that she was taken by him and roughly when.

What you said was "This has always been my main point of scepticism to embrace the theory wholeheartedly. Most direct hints point to Lyanna being Jon's mother (promise me Ned... Jon's appearance etc. etc.) but not necessarily to Rhaegar as father." - The evidence that points to Lyanna as a mother only points to her becoming a mother after she was abducted and given what we know about Rheagar (that he wanted another child to complete the prophesy) it is supremely unlikely that he was passing her around like Tysha...which would really be the only way one of the others who were potentially around might have impregnated her. Add to that the KG staying and it is unlikley that any child Lyanna had was a by-blow of Arthur Dane or anyone else, because that baby would not deserve KG protection.

[Dragon greyscale]

Sorry but unless she actually finished the answer to promise me what? That is also indirect evidence...we know she wanted something promised but no idea what or in relation to whom and if we are being technical, the very fact that she had a baby at all is completely based on indirect inferences and conjecture.

I disagree. The chronology is what it is, it is fact. She was taken and found about a year later, and then Ned showed up with "his" bastard. That Rhaegar is the best potential father in that time really isn't a question, because I don't think anyone would have thought that Lyanna's bastard was anyone other than Rhaegar Targaryen's child given the circumstances (obviously I'm talking about if it had come out at the time that Lyanna not Ned had a bastard). Which is why Ned took such pains to end any discussion about the mother because the natural leap from discovering that Lyanna had a child was that she had it while a captive of Rhegar, since the whole kingdom knew that she was taken by him and roughly when.

What you said was "This has always been my main point of scepticism to embrace the theory wholeheartedly. Most direct hints point to Lyanna being Jon's mother (promise me Ned... Jon's appearance etc. etc.) but not necessarily to Rhaegar as father." - The evidence that points to Lyanna as a mother only points to her becoming a mother after she was abducted and given what we know about Rheagar (that he wanted another child to complete the prophesy) it is supremely unlikely that he was passing her around like Tysha...which would really be the only way one of the others who were potentially around might have impregnated her. Add to that the KG staying and it is unlikley that any child Lyanna had was a by-blow of Arthur Dane or anyone else, because that baby would not deserve KG protection.

I don't think we're disagreeing as much as you make it out to be. This whole theory( the entire series) is shrouded in ambiguity. That's why I specifically used the word "hints" and not evidence. IMO, lyanna's promise is a direct question to the reader; it directly points to something that has to unveiled. Rhaegar's role in this is never addressed that literally.

Of course a lot of this has to do with the mother's role (definity of pregnancy etc.) and the father's role (cersei is undeniably joff's mother, robert not so much).

[The Bastard's Daughter]

There is also Jon Connington's introduction of Aegon to the GC

"My lords, I give you Aegon Targaryen, firstborn son of Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, by Princess Elia of Dorne"

Firstborn, not even trueborn, let alone only and the "by Princess Elia" not "and Princess Elia". is it possible to read this as saying anything other than Rhaegar has another legitimate son by a different wife?

[SerFelixCulpa]

There is also Jon Connington's introduction of Aegon to the GC

"My lords, I give you Aegon Targaryen, firstborn son of Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, by Princess Elia of Dorne"

Firstborn, not even trueborn, let alone only and the "by Princess Elia" not "and Princess Elia". is it possible to read this as saying anything other than Rhaegar has another legitimate son by a different wife?

Yes. It is perfectly consistent to call him "firstborn." That is literally true. It may be a piece of formulaic language. Certainly, interpreting it as evidence that Rhaegar had another son (that Connington even knows about and is keeping secret!) is over-parsing the line.

[Gentso]

If the interviewer said lyanna (which is still conjecture from our point) it does not prove R+L=J. It proves ?+L=J.

This has always been my main point of scepticism to embrace the theory wholeheartedly. Most direct hints point to Lyanna being Jon's mother (promise me Ned... Jon's appearance etc. etc.) but not necessarily to Rhaegar as father.

Well, the way I see it is if Lyanna is the mother then Rhaegar has to be the father. She wasn't pregnant before she ran off with Rhaegar to spark the rebellion so who else would have impregnanted her during that time?

[genegirl]

I remember Kit Harrington commenting at Comic Con that Jon Snow's parents were RT & LS.

[Screaming Knight]

I always thought that the equal to a knight for the northmen was to serve in the NW, since knights is more of a new gods thing, but this works for me, Benjen learning the secret and isolating himself to the watch to leave the Stark family issues and think only of his new brothers.

Judging by the backgrounds and descriptions of most of the nights watch I'd relate more to just an alternative to prison. Knights typically spend most of their lives going through the process to be knighted, where a man of the knights watch usually earns their title after being caught breaking the law and given their choice of punishment for their crime or the wall. The wall is also often the punishment. Of course there are exceptions in both orders. As for benjen, I doubt he knows of jons parentage. I just don't understand why he would or why would Ned would feel the need to tell him. I always thought that benjen had the same delusions of the prestige of the NW that Jon had. It's possible that the life or marriage and a family didn't appeal to him and being the 3rd son and being a stark may have thought it was his duty to serve on the wall.

[Gentso]

I remember Kit Harrington commenting at Comic Con that Jon Snow's parents were RT & LS.

What! Is there a video or transcript of this available somewhere? I remember the comic con panel where someone asked him if he knew who his parents were and he said that George didn't tell him. Afterwards George said that if he knew he'd have to kill him. : )

[The guy from the Vale]

Except that Benjen was the only brother Ned had left once Ben decided to join the watch. So in case Catelyn or Robb died, he'd have been in a good position to inherit. It might well be that he went to the wall for any other reason, but Benjen (just as Howland Reed) wouldn't necessarily need Ned to tell him about the Rhaegar/Lyanna romance, and he knew Lyanna well enough to possibly see her in Jon. Howland Reed knew of their romance, as he was in some way responsible for them meeting and falling in love, and Benjen might well have known from Lyanna herself. I don't think it's a coincidence that Reed was a member of Eddard's Seven, and I wouldn't be surprised when Benjen going to the wall was no coincidence either, but his self-inflicted punishment for helping Lyanna run off.

[Faint]

One of the little tidbits that Anne Groell reveals in the Subtext, annotated-edition of A Game of Thrones is that George asked her the same question... when she was editing the very first book in the series.

She guessed right, apparently.

Interesting . . .

Not that it was ever likely, but this is basically a confirmation that the fisherman's wife is out of the running. And the quote from the show's creators is really strong evidence that neither Wylla nor Ashara are the mother.

I have to say, Lyanna being Jon's mother is almost a sure thing at this point.

[Dragon greyscale]

Rhaegar is the only person for whom Ned would need to conceal the paternity.

Why? isn't it more a matter of covering up for lyanna? Am I missing something?

[Dragonfish]

Why? isn't it more a matter of covering up for lyanna? Am I missing something?

No, it's about making sure Robert doesn't find out that a son of Rhaegar is still alive. If he did find out, then he'd probably have the boy killed.

[zzzNitro]

Judging by the backgrounds and descriptions of most of the nights watch I'd relate more to just an alternative to prison. Knights typically spend most of their lives going through the process to be knighted, where a man of the knights watch usually earns their title after being caught breaking the law and given their choice of punishment for their crime or the wall. The wall is also often the punishment. Of course there are exceptions in both orders. As for benjen, I doubt he knows of jons parentage. I just don't understand why he would or why would Ned would feel the need to tell him. I always thought that benjen had the same delusions of the prestige of the NW that Jon had. It's possible that the life or marriage and a family didn't appeal to him and being the 3rd son and being a stark may have thought it was his duty to serve on the wall.

Yeah, obviously the watch is made of a lot of used-to-be bad guys, but then again, for the people in the north the watch is an ancient and respectable order, at least for the ones that keep the old gods and have the blood of the first men, or that's how I read it at least.

Except that Benjen was the only brother Ned had left once Ben decided to join the watch. So in case Catelyn or Robb died, he'd have been in a good position to inherit. It might well be that he went to the wall for any other reason, but Benjen (just as Howland Reed) wouldn't necessarily need Ned to tell him about the Rhaegar/Lyanna romance, and he knew Lyanna well enough to possibly see her in Jon. Howland Reed knew of their romance, as he was in some way responsible for them meeting and falling in love, and Benjen might well have known from Lyanna herself. I don't think it's a coincidence that Reed was a member of Eddard's Seven, and I wouldn't be surprised when Benjen going to the wall was no coincidence either, but his self-inflicted punishment for helping Lyanna run off.

Again, this works for me too, either Benjen took the black as self punishment and/or isolation for he knew the secret, that's good, and if he turns out to be Coldhands then there's a reason to keeping him talkative rather than as the zombiefied version of wights.

[Screaming Knight]

Except that Benjen was the only brother Ned had left once Ben decided to join the watch. So in case Catelyn or Robb died, he'd have been in a good position to inherit. It might well be that he went to the wall for any other reason, but Benjen (just as Howland Reed) wouldn't necessarily need Ned to tell him about the Rhaegar/Lyanna romance, and he knew Lyanna well enough to possibly see her in Jon. Howland Reed knew of their romance, as he was in some way responsible for them meeting and falling in love, and Benjen might well have known from Lyanna herself. I don't think it's a coincidence that Reed was a member of Eddard's Seven, and I wouldn't be surprised when Benjen going to the wall was no coincidence either, but his self-inflicted punishment for helping Lyanna run off.

Yea could be. This is just another mystery there is no answer for. I just don't get any kind of vibe that a specific event made benjen take the black. I meant growing up as the youngest of three in the most powerful family in the north, he could've just thought that joining the NW was the best way for him to leave a legacy and contribute. He was still a boy at this point in time, I can't imagine his assistance wouldve been needed. I've read a lot of posts regarding benjen and what his role was/is in all of these events. I never read anything in the books though, that made me suspect there is more to benjen that meets the eye. But like I said up top, just an opinion until something happens in the book to prove it.

[Screaming Knight]

Yeah, obviously the watch is made of a lot of used-to-be bad guys, but then again, for the people in the north the watch is an ancient and respectable order, at least for the ones that keep the old gods and have the blood of the first men, or that's how I read it at least

Haha. Definitely not all "used-to-be-bad guys". A long time ago a man of the NW might have been as respected as knights, and it was even common for a knight to join the order. But the two orders really don't have anything in common. Knights are free to marry, have families, own lands, travel. The NW is basically a branch of military with one very specific mission that never changes and really gets very little respect. I think very few people aspire to be a man of the NW like people would a knight. Benjen may have been one of the few who did aspire to be a man of the NW. He fit the criteria perfectly. High born male low in the the line of succesion who's older brother was getting married and given the timeline, Robb was probably conceived on Ned and Cat's wedding night. I'm sure that was their intention, to make sure Ned left an heir at the first opportunity since he was fighting a war. This is what I think cemented benjen taking the black. I think he always had intentions of taking the black. When Brandon and Rickard died and Ned became lord of winterfell. Ned made sure to get Cat pregnant and benjen would stick around until Ned returned and if he didn't he would run winterfell until Robb was old enough and then go to the wall. And if he did know about Jon, I think he really would have made sure he didn't go to the wall. I know he tried to dissuade him but he was more just tellin him, it's nothing like you think or have been told.