Lady Octarina Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Judging by the backgrounds and descriptions of most of the nights watch I'd relate more to just an alternative to prison. Knights typically spend most of their lives going through the process to be knighted, where a man of the knights watch usually earns their title after being caught breaking the law and given their choice of punishment for their crime or the wall. The wall is also often the punishment. Of course there are exceptions in both orders. As for benjen, I doubt he knows of jons parentage. I just don't understand why he would or why would Ned would feel the need to tell him. I always thought that benjen had the same delusions of the prestige of the NW that Jon had. It's possible that the life or marriage and a family didn't appeal to him and being the 3rd son and being a stark may have thought it was his duty to serve on the wall.I remember reading that GRRM was asked why Benjen joined the Watch, and said that would be answered later. Well, if he joined because he was seeking honor, glory, or whatever it was Jon himself joined for, why not say so right away? If that was the case, it would probably be mentioned in GoT, in one of his many talks with Jon. But it never is. The thing is, Benjen certainly joined the Watch only after the war ended and Eddard returned ("there must always be a Stark in Winterfell") - consequently, after Jon arrived at Winterfell. We don't know how long it took him to take the black, but it can't have been that much. And, as I said before, he was close to Lyanna, he certainly would have noticed if Jon has anything of her (we're never told). He might have joined the Wall seeking redemption, but he also might have joined to run away from that living ghost that might remind him of his sister. And then imagine how annoyed he was when said ghost decided to follow him to the Wall? I was always surprised at how cold Benjen seemed, epecially towards Jon, when he was such a warmer child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorSwerve Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I remember reading that GRRM was asked why Benjen joined the Watch, and said that would be answered later. Well if that is the case, we are likely to see Benjen again, whether alive or as Coldhands. I can't think of anyone else alive who would know why Benjen joined the NW, which reaffirms my feeling that Jon will figure out his parentage from Benjen, not Howland Reed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Piece Maker Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Ned tells Jon "you don't have my name, but you do have my blood". Ned never calls him son. The only other Stark blood available,at the time of Jon's conception, are his siblings and his father. Benjen is at the wall, Brandon is in Riverrun preparing for his wedding, his father is in Winterfell or in Riverrun, and Lyanna is with Rhaegar. I vote for Lyanna. The only likely father for a child of hers at that time would be Rhaegar. Ned would lie about being Jon's father to protect Jon from being murdered by Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I remember reading that GRRM was asked why Benjen joined the Watch, and said that would be answered later. Well, if he joined because he was seeking honor, glory, or whatever it was Jon himself joined for, why not say so right away? If that was the case, it would probably be mentioned in GoT, in one of his many talks with Jon. But it never is. The thing is, Benjen certainly joined the Watch only after the war ended and Eddard returned ("there must always be a Stark in Winterfell") - consequently, after Jon arrived at Winterfell. We don't know how long it took him to take the black, but it can't have been that much. And, as I said before, he was close to Lyanna, he certainly would have noticed if Jon has anything of her (we're never told). He might have joined the Wall seeking redemption, but he also might have joined to run away from that living ghost that might remind him of his sister. And then imagine how annoyed he was when said ghost decided to follow him to the Wall? I was always surprised at how cold Benjen seemed, epecially towards Jon, when he was such a warmer child.If benjen went to the wall to escape the constant reminder of Lyanna, wouldn't he have gone to greater lengths to prevent Jon from going. He initially tells Jon they could use someone like him, but I don't think he expected Jon to be so stubborn about it. Obviously benjen was in winterfell to be "the stark in winterfell" while Ned was at war. I always got the impression that jons enthusiasm to the NW reminded him of his own when he was young and he now knows the truth and felt obligates to make sure Jon was aware of what he was getting into. And if benjen knew who jons parents were, was Ned aware of that? I'm not really sure that benjen didn't know who jons parents were, but I can't think of how he would know and why he would have assisted Lyanna and why his assistance would've been necessary. But maybe he knew, and he's still alive and will be the one to enlighten Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg1982 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I think that Benjen went to the Wall out of penance and guilt. He was definitely in on Lyanna's Knight of the Laughing Tree escapades, which was the start of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He might have helped her sneak letters to Rhaegar, etc. and perhaps even helped her escape. I also think that he knew about Jon because he would have put two and two together. That being said I thought that Benjen's warning to Jon was general, not specific. It was more maybe you should step back and experience life, sex, marriage, etc. rather than Jon you're the true heir to the throne and will one day be king. The Starks were loyal to Robert Baratheon; Jon wasn't going to be king. Ned claimed Jon as his bastard to save Jon's life and honor his sister's wish. There was no plans for Jon to claim the throne. If the ice zombies hadn't returned and a complex web of political intrigue hadn't started with Lysa and Littlefinger murdering Jon Arryn, then Jon would have remained Ned Stark's bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 First post...and havent made it through all of the forum...but does anyone else think Jon could be the real "Aegon" and Young Griff/aegon is actually the son of Lyanna?The thought crossed my mind but I threw it out, being then unable to explain why Jon looks so much a Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Why? isn't it more a matter of covering up for lyanna? Am I missing something?Rhaegar's heir is a claimant to the Iron Throne, and a reminder to Robert that Rhaegar took her away from him. Keeping his paternity secret is about protecting him from Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I think that Benjen went to the Wall out of penance and guilt. He was definitely in on Lyanna's Knight of the Laughing Tree escapades, which was the start of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He might have helped her sneak letters to Rhaegar, etc. and perhaps even helped her escape. I also think that he knew about Jon because he would have put two and two together. That being said I thought that Benjen's warning to Jon was general, not specific. It was more maybe you should step back and experience life, sex, marriage, etc. rather than Jon you're the true heir to the throne and will one day be king. The Starks were loyal to Robert Baratheon; Jon wasn't going to be king. Ned claimed Jon as his bastard to save Jon's life and honor his sister's wish. There was no plans for Jon to claim the throne. If the ice zombies hadn't returned and a complex web of political intrigue hadn't started with Lysa and Littlefinger murdering Jon Arryn, then Jon would have remained Ned Stark's bastard.I agree that Benjen's warning was a general warning, stating the obvious cons that are inherited when taking the black. I'm just unsure of what role Benjen could have played in enabling a relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ok, say he knew she was the KOTLT, that doesn't make him complicet in any kind of affair if he kept that a secret.( not sure if this is what you were getting at). I didn't know Martin said that it would be revealed why Benjen took the black but since he did I guess it is going to be relevant to those events since he went to the wall shortly after the end of the war. I always assumed that, growing up, Brandon was groomed to succeed his father at winterfell and Ned to be somewhat of a VP. And Benjen, being the youngest, probably felt that he would contribute more at the wall, and once Brandon was killed and Ned was at war for an extended period of time, the reality of him having to take over winterfell became a little too real for him and essentially solidified his fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaison Biagini Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 it seems like everyone wants this to be true so jon snow can eventually ride a dragon. but it doesn't have to be so. why couldn't bran slip the skin of one on the dragons? it's seems like he is going to be one of the most powerful wogs to ever exist. why couldn't he be the dragon jon snow rides?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 it seems like everyone wants this to be true so jon snow can eventually ride a dragon. Sorry but I think for the majority, this is just an outcome, not the reason.Concerning Benjen: I believe that Bran's vision of a girl sparring with a younger boy was Lyanna with Benjen. I think it is not far-fetched to assume that if he was willing to spar with her, she could have trained jousting with him, as well - and it was these training sessions that allowed her to become KOTLT (if she did), which would make Benjen sort of indirectly responsible. If he was crossing Lord Rickard orders in this, he might have felt guilty like hell after that; he was still very young, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Piece Maker Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Why? isn't it more a matter of covering up for lyanna? Am I missing something?Remember what happened to Rhaegar's other 2 children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Ned tells Jon "you don't have my name, but you do have my blood". Ned never calls him son. The only other Stark blood available,at the time of Jon's conception, are his siblings and his father. Benjen is at the wall, Brandon is in Riverrun preparing for his wedding, his father is in Winterfell or in Riverrun, and Lyanna is with Rhaegar. I vote for Lyanna. The only likely father for a child of hers at that time would be Rhaegar. Ned would lie about being Jon's father to protect Jon from being murdered by Robert.Actually, Benjen is in Winterfell (There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.) He stayed there during the rebellion. (Rickard and Brandon were killed, Ned was fighting, Lyanna "kidnapped". Benjen was the only available Stark) He joined the Watch only after Ned arrived home with Jon. (I don't know how soon or why, though. I guess he felt guilty because he helped Lyanna to run away with Rhaegar, and I think he also knew, or at least suspected, that R+L=J) And Benjen was like 13-14 at the time. (younger than Lyanna who died at 16 I think) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Wow. Sean Bean really gave it away there."Even if I were his true father."I mean, come on. That settles the matter once and for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Piece Maker Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Actually, Benjen is in Winterfell (There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.) He stayed there during the rebellion. (Rickard and Brandon were killed, Ned was fighting, Lyanna "kidnapped". Benjen was the only available Stark) He joined the Watch only after Ned arrived home with Jon. (I don't know how soon or why, though. I guess he felt guilty because he helped Lyanna to run away with Rhaegar, and I think he also knew, or at least suspected, that R+L=J) And Benjen was like 13-14 at the time. (younger than Lyanna who died at 16 I think)My bad!! Benjen was probably was in Winterfell. But wasn't Lyanna's "kidnapping" the cause of the rebellion? At the time of Jon's conception, had Rickard and Brandon already been murdered? Brandon went to call out Rhaegar at KL because of the "kidnapping". Wasn't Rickard summoned to KL because of Brandon's actions? Wasn't Ned fighting because Robert thought that Rhaegar had stolen his betrothed? How did Benjen help L & R to run away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The timeline is not that clear to me, I think the following happened:1) Harrenhal tourney2) Brandon leaves for Riverrun, he goes to marry Catelyn. Ned is with Jon Arryn. I don't know where Rickard is, prob. Winterfell.3) Lyanna "disappeares"4) Brandon gets the news before arriving at Riverrun, and goes straight to KL.5) Aerys summons Rickard and other fathers6) Execution time.7) Aerys summons Ned and Robert. Jon Arryn calls the banners. Ned goes home to do the same.8) Ned marries Catelyn, and leaves soon after.9) rebellion time. It lasts over a year.10) End of rebellion, Robert is on the throne.11) Ned goes to the ToJ, Lyanna gives birth.Problem is:We don't know how old Jon is. I think GRRM mentioned that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Dany was conceived right before the sack, so Jon was born around that time. Ned claimed Jon is younger than Robb, but actually he can be older. Anyway, Jon was conceived around the time Ned and Cat married (+/- 2 months, I guess). So I would say he was conceived after or around the time Rickard and Brandon died.We don't know where Lyanna was when she disappeared. Did Rhaeger take her from Winterfell? Or they met somewhere south? Where was Benjen at the time? We don't know.The main reason I think Benjen had something to do with Lyanna's "kidnap" is the fact that he joined the Watch after Ned returned home (I think GRRM said it happened soon after) He must have had a good reason for it, otherwise it makes no sense. Benjen would be a spare heir is case something happens to Robb. (Jon is a bastard, he can't inherit) Bran is 7 years younger than Robb. If Benjen really wanted to join the Watch out of some noble reason, he should have waited until another boy is born (I know girls can inherit as well, but it is still safer to have several boys around). And surely Ned could have used his help in Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 3) Lyanna "disappeares"4) Brandon gets the news before arriving at Riverrun, and goes straight to KL.Brandon was at Riverrun when he got the news. Hoster Tully counselled him not to go off to KL and called him a "gallant fool" or something like that.8) Ned marries Catelyn, and leaves soon after.9) rebellion time. It lasts over a year.Robb is conceived on the wedding night, since IIRC Ned leaves the next day.The Rebellion is 'about a year' depending on when you take it's start time (Jon Arryn calls his banners?) and when you take its end time (the sack?) The first few months are mostly mustering troops and moving around though. Ned and Catelyn probably get married several months into the rebellion, since Ned has to get from the Vale to Winterfell, muster his troops and then march down from Winterfell to Riverrun (they were married at Riverrun, since Brandon was going to be and Robb is later born there).We don't know how old Jon is. I think GRRM mentioned that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Dany was conceived right before the sack, so Jon was born around that time. Ned claimed Jon is younger than Robb, but actually he can be older. Anyway, Jon was conceived around the time Ned and Cat married (+/- 2 months, I guess). So I would say he was conceived after or around the time Rickard and Brandon died.Yes, Jon is born around the same time as the sack, give or take a few weeks or so. Robb is claimed to be older, though it seems unlikely, but Jon cannot be very much older (if any) as the difference between, say, a 6 month old baby and a 3 month old baby is pretty obvious.We don't know where Lyanna was when she disappeared. Did Rhaeger take her from Winterfell? Or they met somewhere south? Where was Benjen at the time? We don't know.While we don't know for sure, it is pretty likely she was somewhere south. She was going to marry a southern Lord and the purpose of being in the south (includin Harrenhal) is obviously to meet as many important people and get to know them and be known by them. She is going to be a major great lady, so she has to make up for all those years isolated in the north as much as possible. Not to ention, that fairly soon her brother is going to get married, so the chances are that since Harrenhal she had been visiting nobles in the Stormlands (her future husband's vassals) or at/around KL, and was quite possibly on her way to Riverrun for Brandon's wedding (making more visits along the way) when the 'abduction' happened. It seems very unlikely she'd have travelled all the way back to the north for a few months just to come south again, and missed all those opportunities for making useful future connections.But we don't know for sure. The guess that she was south is just based on logical principles based on known plans and typical behaviour for the period and culture.Benjen's location is totally unknown at the time, though he spent the war in Winterfell. It seems likely he was in Winterfell by the time Rickard received Aery's summons and rode south, which might suggest he was there earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Thanks for the correction.I still has a feeling that Benjen knew something or helped Lyanna. Otherwise I don't see why he joined the Watch when Ned arrived home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokefall Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Not that it was ever likely, but this is basically a confirmation that the fisherman's wife is out of the running. And the quote from the show's creators is really strong evidence that neither Wylla nor Ashara are the mother.I agree, but I reckon Wylla and the fisher woman may be the same person. Wylla is a name associated with that area (Wylla Manderley, for example), it doesn't seem to be a Dornish name. I think Wylla might have a far more interesting history, involving Ned, than is now generally thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reek it rhymes with meek Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 R+L=J Please not be true, please please! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serie Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Thanks for the correction.I still has a feeling that Benjen knew something or helped Lyanna. Otherwise I don't see why he joined the Watch when Ned arrived home.I can think of a thousand reasons. For example, he was in love with Cat :Pseriously now, the pain of loss alone would be enough. But that doesn't mean he didn't know or was not involved in R+L situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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