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R+L=J v.21


Angalin

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He's said before that he wouldn't change something even if readers had figured it out. Far as I'm concerned, that's the end of right there. I also think that "defying the formula" is being oversold and overemphasized here. He's still writing in the fantasy genre and however many loops he throws, he still has to adhere to that genre's conventions in a broad sense, or else it's not really "fantasy." It's getting to the point where people think he's going to turn something upside down solely for shock value and I think that's just silly.

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Dear R+L=J shippers, I have a question. It's maybe to logic for a fantasy book, but:

If Jon was born at the ToJ more shortly before or while the fight took place, and assuming his parents are R + L, he was too young to show distinctive features of either of them. Growing up, he could have looked like Rhaegar reborn. Why should Ned take him to Winterfell, where that look would stick in the eye of everyone, surely leading to rumors and questions. It would have made sense to deliver Jon to the Daynes and have Ashara raise him, especially when you are bringing Dawn there anyway.

So I must conclude that R+L does not equal J. It would make more sense to have Lyanna tell Eddard that Ashara is pregnant from him, with Lyanna begging Eddard to raise his child in Winterfell, and if Lyanna was pregnant as well, give her child to Ashara?

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But, you know, it really isn't that obvious to the casual fan who just watches the series, but may not choose to read the books.

In fact, I'd never heard of it until the HBO series, and I've read everything from Herbert, Bradbury, Michael Moorecock, etc.

It's been a while since I've committed to a work as vast as this, and even then, I probably speed-read a lot, because with my schedule, I just don't have the time to get that involved like I used to, so that said, no, Jon as Lyanna and Rhaegars son, will still be a surprise.

But, I think Martin has to be careful that this doesn't turn into a soap opera, rather than a great story.

As long as it is a story well told, it can be what some have referred to as "cliche," because a well told story, though done before, is better than one done soley for the sake of "originality," (which is a tall order at this point in time), but badly done.

I agree.

Key point for me is that everyone on here is a committed fan. We read the books, analysed them, wanted to go into further detail and get immersed in the World. But not every reader is like that - I'd say we're pretty much in the minority - and GRRM isn't just writing for us.

It may be obvious to everyone on here that, in all likelihood, R+L=J. But it's not obvious to everyone. I found this forum because I came up with the theory on my own initiative and did a bit of research to find if anyone else had had the same thoughts; and before I came on here, I chatted to others - colleagues who'd read the books, people on another (completely unrelated) internet forum :dunce: where there's a long thread on the books - and it hadn't occurred to the vast majority. They hadn't picked up on the clues, and I'll admit that I hadn't picked up on all of them. So, if it happened that way then it wouldn't be a surprise to us, but it would be a surprise (imho) to the watching and reading majority out there.

Same with Jamie potentially being the Valonquar. Yes, anyone who put 2+2 together and noted that Cersei came out first might be disappointed if this were the case. But, to most, that snippet will have passed them by and they'll all be assuming it's Tyrion.

More importantly, I guess, Cersei thinks the Valonquar is Tyrion and Jon has no idea of his lineage. So it makes for a good story, if that's the way we're going.

There will still be twists and turns, and unexpected deaths; whoever is what, none us us can comfortably guess who will end the series alive (after all, valar morghulis). Jon could be half Targ, tPtwP and AA reborn and still end up dying before the end...

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Just a few things.

1. I think that most readers — casual readers, most of whom don't visit forums — either don't know the R+L=J theory or they've thought about it but not too much. I think people on here have convinced themselves that it was more obvious than it really is.

2. It was meant to be figured out. So I don't understand people (not necessarily you) complaining that it can't be the solution because people can figure it out. Well, duh? He has enough clues and hints that yes, you can figure it out if you piece them together. That's what makes it good writing. He has a major development that he was able to tease under the radar in a way that a lot of people missed, but they can go back on rereads and see that clues were there all along. If Martin was a hack, then he would have a cheap "gotcha" solution that no one could see coming. But he's better than that, and it baffles me that some people apparently want that type of solution.

Also got to agree with this.

I remember reading the Harry Potter books and becoming hugely frustrated with the fact that they were, in my eyes, amateur whodunnits full of clues - the majority of which were red herrings, and the real ones being so obscure that you needed the author to explain them after the event. This isn't a murder mystery genre.

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Dear R+L=J shippers, I have a question. It's maybe to logic for a fantasy book, but:

If Jon was born at the ToJ more shortly before or while the fight took place, and assuming his parents are R + L, he was too young to show distinctive features of either of them. Growing up, he could have looked like Rhaegar reborn. Why should Ned take him to Winterfell, where that look would stick in the eye of everyone, surely leading to rumors and questions. It would have made sense to deliver Jon to the Daynes and have Ashara raise him, especially when you are bringing Dawn there anyway.

Winterfell is far from KL, and I doubt anyone there ever knew Rhaegar really well. If Jon grew up a purple-eyed blonde, people would most probably assume that he took after the mother, and with Ashara's purple eyes and the occurence of blonde hair in the Daynes, the gossip about Ashara would only seem more firmly based. As long as everyone believed that Ned was the father, different colouring would not be really suspicious.

And, I actually believe that Winterfell was a better location than Starfall because it was further from KL and more isolated, and therefore safer.

So I must conclude that R+L does not equal J. It would make more sense to have Lyanna tell Eddard that Ashara is pregnant from him, with Lyanna begging Eddard to raise his child in Winterfell, and if Lyanna was pregnant as well, give her child to Ashara?

Timelines do not fit. Unless Ned had some opportunities to be with Ashara that we were not infrmed about, we must assume that after the Harrenhall tourney, Ashara was in KL as Elia's companion, while Ned returned to the Vale. The rebellion started about a year after the tourney, and by that time, Ashara's child was already born. Besides, it is not clear whether the child was fathered by Ned, or by Brandon - I don't see Ned, who was too shy to even ask Ashara for a dance, suddenly become so bold as to have sex with her a couple of days later, not to mention the fact that dishonouring her so would be out of character for him. On the other hand, Brandon has a reputation of taking what he wanted and not really caring about nobleborn girls' maidenheads.

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Winterfell is far from KL, and I doubt anyone there ever knew Rhaegar really well. If Jon grew up a purple-eyed blonde, people would most probably assume that he took after the mother, and with Ashara's purple eyes and the occurence of blonde hair in the Daynes, the gossip about Ashara would only seem more firmly based. As long as everyone believed that Ned was the father, different colouring would not be really suspicious.

And, I actually believe that Winterfell was a better location than Starfall because it was further from KL and more isolated, and therefore safer.

Timelines do not fit. Unless Ned had some opportunities to be with Ashara that we were not infrmed about, we must assume that after the Harrenhall tourney, Ashara was in KL as Elia's companion, while Ned returned to the Vale. The rebellion started about a year after the tourney, and by that time, Ashara's child was already born. Besides, it is not clear whether the child was fathered by Ned, or by Brandon - I don't see Ned, who was too shy to even ask Ashara for a dance, suddenly become so bold as to have sex with her a couple of days later, not to mention the fact that dishonouring her so would be out of character for him. On the other hand, Brandon has a reputation of taking what he wanted and not really caring about nobleborn girls' maidenheads.

Oh , i think he cared about them..............in as much as how many he had taken. :cool4: He sounds like a playah and i would have loved to meet him in the books, just to hear how he spoke and carried himself.

Yes it is a semi plausable theory........but what if Lyanna had twins? The one with silver hair was left with the Daynes/Ashara, the one with dark hair was brought back by Ned to Winterfell...........just sayin.

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Yes it is a semi plausable theory........but what if Lyanna had twins? The one with silver hair was left with the Daynes/Ashara, the one with dark hair was brought back by Ned to Winterfell...........just sayin.

Meaning, the silver-haired one would be YG? That would be a wonderful twist - a real Targaryen passing himself off as another Targaryen :cool4:

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Dear R+L=J shippers, I have a question. It's maybe to logic for a fantasy book, but:

If Jon was born at the ToJ more shortly before or while the fight took place, and assuming his parents are R + L, he was too young to show distinctive features of either of them. Growing up, he could have looked like Rhaegar reborn. Why should Ned take him to Winterfell, where that look would stick in the eye of everyone, surely leading to rumors and questions. It would have made sense to deliver Jon to the Daynes and have Ashara raise him, especially when you are bringing Dawn there anyway.

So I must conclude that R+L does not equal J. It would make more sense to have Lyanna tell Eddard that Ashara is pregnant from him, with Lyanna begging Eddard to raise his child in Winterfell, and if Lyanna was pregnant as well, give her child to Ashara?

I think you're onto something here, but you raise doubt on your conclusion. The fact that one can't tell for sure who a new born will grow up to look like, especially if they are born bald, which many are, is a great point. However, purposely propagating the the rumor that Jon's mother might have been Ashara Dayne would help to explain if Jon did grow up looking Targish. Great cover story, just in case..

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Dear R+L=J shippers, I have a question. It's maybe to logic for a fantasy book, but:

If Jon was born at the ToJ more shortly before or while the fight took place, and assuming his parents are R + L, he was too young to show distinctive features of either of them. Growing up, he could have looked like Rhaegar reborn. Why should Ned take him to Winterfell, where that look would stick in the eye of everyone, surely leading to rumors and questions. It would have made sense to deliver Jon to the Daynes and have Ashara raise him, especially when you are bringing Dawn there anyway.

So I must conclude that R+L does not equal J. It would make more sense to have Lyanna tell Eddard that Ashara is pregnant from him, with Lyanna begging Eddard to raise his child in Winterfell, and if Lyanna was pregnant as well, give her child to Ashara?

No such thing as too young to show distinctive features. Babies can be born with hair. And Jon has grey eyes so in that case no worries about him not looking like a Stark.

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I'm a little late, but I'll answer these anyway.

Oh for ... :bang: :bang: :bang:

TARGS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE!

Martin has already said, multiple times, that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Not even Dany is immune to fire — she was ONE TIME, when she birthed her dragons. She burned just fine in the fighting pit. It's not going to happen again. Multiple Targaryens have died in fire-related incidents — molten gold, normal fires, wildfire, dragonfire, etc. People see one isolated incident and read into it what is not really there.

I laughed as I read that post because I was sure you would be the one to answer it

:rofl:

But you do know that new fans will keep asking this in the next versions of this thread, until Daenerys is so burned in the books there can be no doubt about it (I'm still betting on that barbecue for Drogon). Until then, we can keep blaming HBO for setting false clues to the whole fandom. ^.~

Is there a differance between being a Targ and a dragon? Are all dragons Targs and not all Targs dragons? Dany said fire cannot kill a dragon.

Daenerys is a megalomaniac girl who doesn't take the opportunities life offers her to educate herself on what being a Targaryen actually means. We really shouldn't take her words that serious, since what little information she does have she learned through Viserys, who wasn't the sanest person around either ^.^

I get what you're saying, but I think his thematic chore speaks most consistently to the idea of defying formulaic expectations. What Cornwell enjoys doing with the glory of war, GRRM enjoys doing with fantasy givens. So, not even just because it's been spotted, but because of how it's being spot-able (sic) speaks to the kind of dovetailing I think he sees as crass, I wonder if feedback wouldn't reinforce a need to change tack if R+L+J seems so right for so many.

And while I agree we aren't necessarily representative of the average reader, we are probably the type whose temperature he can most readily take.

Martin has declared a few times that he avoids visiting fan boards and seeing people's theories or how much they have figured out, so that he won't be tempted to change his original plans. I guess that means R+L=J will probably stand the test of time and be revealed in a few years, and we'll have a little party in the 50th version of this thread to celebrate, of course.

:cool4:

Oh , i think he cared about them..............in as much as how many he had taken. :cool4: He sounds like a playah and i would have loved to meet him in the books, just to hear how he spoke and carried himself.

Yes it is a semi plausable theory........but what if Lyanna had twins? The one with silver hair was left with the Daynes/Ashara, the one with dark hair was brought back by Ned to Winterfell...........just sayin.

Yes, but what would be the point of that? What could be the importance of YG being an impostor of an impostor of... uh, something. I just think his being Lyanna's son with Rhaegar wouldn't be good for the story - Jon is enough for that; whereas his being a Blackfyre... then I can see a good plot!

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Meaning, the silver-haired one would be YG? That would be a wonderful twist - a real Targaryen passing himself off as another Targaryen :cool4:

That... sounds extremely interesting, maybe that's why the Lemore and the half-maester have a dornish feel to them? (Lemore is thought to be the mother of one of the Sand Snakes, and the Haldon has a cyvasse table in the middleof his cabin)
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That... sounds extremely interesting, maybe that's why the Lemore and the half-maester have a dornish feel to them? (Lemore is thought to be the mother of one of the Sand Snakes, and the Haldon has a cyvasse table in the middleof his cabin)

From what I understand, cyvasse is a game from Essos, isn't it? Dornish play that because of the frequent commercial exchanges and, well, they're not that far from Essos anyway. I don't remember anything pointing to the Halfmaester being Dornish, and Lemore, well... the most famous theory is that she is Ashara herself, so... (also, is Tyene's mother ever revealed to be Dornish as well?)

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I realise I come to this thread very late, but I really want in :D

I never thought of R+L=J when I first read the books (I'm not the most attentive reader), and since reading about it I can't help but seeing clues everywhere. So last night I started re-reading AGOT and these quotes caught my eye (they've probably been mention before, but still...):

- “Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.” Ned's 2nd chapter. Seeing he called Jon his son, that would be the lie.

-· “What good is that? There are no more dragons,” [Jon Snow] said with the easy certainty of youth." Tyrion2

And my favourite : “[Jon Snow] absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.” Tyrion2 :lmao:

If it turns out Lyanna was his mother, that's pretty ironic.

On a different note, I'm not very keen on R+L=J and at this point I think it would be a cool twist if it weren't true, but I don't get why some people think it makes ASOIAF "soapy". If GRRM didn't give us clues and pieces of the puzzle and everything were what it seemed, the books would be pretty one-dimensional.

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Dear R+L=J shippers, I have a question. It's maybe to logic for a fantasy book, but:

If Jon was born at the ToJ more shortly before or while the fight took place, and assuming his parents are R + L, he was too young to show distinctive features of either of them. Growing up, he could have looked like Rhaegar reborn. Why should Ned take him to Winterfell, where that look would stick in the eye of everyone, surely leading to rumors and questions. It would have made sense to deliver Jon to the Daynes and have Ashara raise him, especially when you are bringing Dawn there anyway.

Nonsense.

1. Jon would probably have shown some features — eyes, hair, nose, whatever — even from a very young age. It was probably evident early on that he'd gotten the Stark look.

2. Even if he hadn't, Ned could have just let people assume that ASHARA was his mother. Male Daynes can have silver hair and purple eyes. So if Jon grew up to have those, people would think they came from a Dayne mother, not a Targ father.

3. The Daynes are not kin. Ned is. So Ned is the one who would take responsibility for him. End of.

So I must conclude that R+L does not equal J.

Was that your only justification? Because it's incredibly weak.

It would make more sense to have Lyanna tell Eddard that Ashara is pregnant from him, with Lyanna begging Eddard to raise his child in Winterfell, and if Lyanna was pregnant as well, give her child to Ashara?

... What?

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From what I understand, cyvasse is a game from Essos, isn't it? Dornish play that because of the frequent commercial exchanges and, well, they're not that far from Essos anyway. I don't remember anything pointing to the Halfmaester being Dornish, and Lemore, well... the most famous theory is that she is Ashara herself, so... (also, is Tyene's mother ever revealed to be Dornish as well?)

yeah, I don't really know why but I got the dornish feel from them, maybe because of Lemore's lack of shyness or something, and the halfmaester, again, the cyvasse table is very weak as arguement but it's just a feel, you know. And well if it turns out to Lemore is Ashara wouldn't that make more sense in YG actually being Jon's twin, the older I would think, maybe Ned found himself with two newborns, one Starkish the other Targish...

Just now, I thought of something while typing, if they had been twins, and Ashara was keeping one of them, wouldn't Ned had been more concerned about Ashara's suicide? I just don't think Ned was the kind of guy to forget about a second nephew. I guess this makes for the twin theory, unless Ned knew she wasn't really dead but I don't think that was the case.

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I agree.

Key point for me is that everyone on here is a committed fan. We read the books, analysed them, wanted to go into further detail and get immersed in the World. But not every reader is like that - I'd say we're pretty much in the minority - and GRRM isn't just writing for us.

It may be obvious to everyone on here that, in all likelihood, R+L=J. But it's not obvious to everyone. I found this forum because I came up with the theory on my own initiative and did a bit of research to find if anyone else had had the same thoughts; and before I came on here, I chatted to others - colleagues who'd read the books, people on another (completely unrelated) internet forum :dunce: where there's a long thread on the books - and it hadn't occurred to the vast majority. They hadn't picked up on the clues, and I'll admit that I hadn't picked up on all of them. So, if it happened that way then it wouldn't be a surprise to us, but it would be a surprise (imho) to the watching and reading majority out there.

Same with Jamie potentially being the Valonquar. Yes, anyone who put 2+2 together and noted that Cersei came out first might be disappointed if this were the case. But, to most, that snippet will have passed them by and they'll all be assuming it's Tyrion.

More importantly, I guess, Cersei thinks the Valonquar is Tyrion and Jon has no idea of his lineage. So it makes for a good story, if that's the way we're going.

There will still be twists and turns, and unexpected deaths; whoever is what, none us us can comfortably guess who will end the series alive (after all, valar morghulis). Jon could be half Targ, tPtwP and AA reborn and still end up dying before the end...

Agreed.

And again, pressuring Martin into trying to be "original" and "breaking the rules," as some seem to want to do, really isn't fair.

I think his legacy has to be that of a story well told.

Probably not since Shelleys "Frankenstein" has there been a work that truly impacted fantasy culture, (IMHO). This was a story written at a little less than two hundred years ago, (1818), using the science of galvanism as well as the concept of creation, and yet today we are still talking about this story, still making films about it, (I think another one is due out in a year), even though our own science has progressed beyond stitching dead body parts together.

Now THAT kind of story telling is a legacy, but it goes beyond the concepts which were "shocking" for that time.

And Martin has put together a story of such developed characters with their own unique environments, that in interviews when he says he will have to go back and check something, I think that is just what he means, because the development is so vast, and because he wants to remain consistent.

(So, I don't think he makes that statement necessarily to "tweak" his fans, though I think he has referenced in slight sarcasm, the idea that he would change his work just to "throw people off," because the idea is just a little insulting).

If he did do that, then that could be the delicate thread that actually could bring his work down, and ruin it, so I think he sticks to original intent as evidenced by the appearance of Aegon, because he has never said that character was actually dead.

My Husband refuses to come on this board even though I think he'd find some topics helpful, because he's afraid the experience will be ruined for him.

He wants to be surprised, and not be inadvertently influenced by others ideas and opinions.

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Maybe this has been asked before, if so please forgive me.

IMO it seems odd that a father would take a bastard away from it's mother to be raised in his household beside his own natural children, (especially Ned). Perhaps the mother is dead,(Asharra or Lyanna), Perhaps he could provide a better life for the child than the mother could,(Wyla). Ned would see to it that any child of his was provided for, but did he have to take him home? It would, however, be the best way to insure the child's safety.

What ever happened to Wyla anyway?

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