R+L=J v.21

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe this has been asked before, if so please forgive me.

IMO it seems odd that a father would take a bastard away from it's mother to be raised in his household beside his own natural children, (especially Ned). Perhaps the mother is dead,(Asharra or Lyanna), Perhaps he could provide a better life for the child than the mother could,(Wyla). Ned would see to it that any child of his was provided for, but did he have to take him home? It would, however, be the best way to insure the child's safety.

What ever happened to Wyla anyway?

It is unusual for a noble father to bring his bastard home, yeah. Catelyn notes this — she wouldn't mind that much if Ned had a bastard, if he didn't live with them. That Ned did bring Jon home should be a clue that he's not "just" a bastard and may not be a bastard at all.

[Screaming Knight]

It is unusual for a noble father to bring his bastard home, yeah. Catelyn notes this — she wouldn't mind that much if Ned had a bastard, if he didn't live with them. That Ned did bring Jon home should be a clue that he's not "just" a bastard and may not be a bastard at all.

This is part of my issue with the approach Martin took with Jon. While we get the access to neds thoughts and dreams regarding Jon that certain characters do not, there are ample reasons for people to have suspicions about Jon. First, the fact that Ned even fathered a bastard would and did come as a shock to people. Not just because he is almost unanimously thought of as honorable, but also people don't seem to have a definite answer to who the mother is. The whole timeline of events and Lyanna disappearing with rhaegar would be enough to spark suspicion. Is there a universal opinion on what caused her death? I disagree with alot of catelyn's logic, but it's fair for her to feel disrespected by jons presence. Im not really satisfied with the reasoning that people are so disinterested with the details and rights of bastards that nobody thinks to question his birth. The timeline itself. Even though Ned is one of the most powerful lords and people might be hesitant to approach him on something he is very sensitive about, I would think all te effort put into the rebellion that someone would inquire and want specifics and might even formulate that it could be Rhaegars son. The excuse that is given is feasible an not impossible but it is kind of weak and unrealistic. I would think that Ned would have had to have a seamless and detailed story to explain the mother, how it happened, how Lyanna died and why he brought his bastard to live in winterfell with him and his family.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

My thinking is, Ned's reputation is such that he can say, "Lyanna died of THIS" and "Jon is my son" and no one will think twice about it. Whatever he said about Lyanna's manner of death, it must have been sufficient to answer questions, because no one in the current time — not even someone like Cersei, who still viewed Lyanna as a rival — thinks anything too strange happened or doubts his story. If it had been anyone else but Ned, it's possible that there might be more doubts. But Ned himself is pretty guileless, as shown in Game of Thrones when he tells Cersei his entire plan. It's a testament to his commitment to his sister that someone like him has been able to keep the secret for so long.

[David Selig]

Let's look at Ned's situation at the time when Jon was born the way it looks to people in Westeros - his father and brother have recently died in a horrible way, his sister is kidnapped, and he got married to a woman he didn't know at all and had to leave the next day after the wedding. Oh, and he had to fight a war and risk his life time after time for months. All that can lead even the most honourable men towards finding a lover while away from his new wife and facing possible death all the time, and fathering a bastard as a result of it. It's certainly a way more likely explanation if you don't have access to Ned's thoughts than him trying to pass Lyanna's child as his own.

It's not that strange that he doesn't want to talk about the mother either - again the most natural reason from the PoV of a Westerosi observer for that is because he feels ashamed of his temporary weakness and dishonoring his wife and wants to forget the whole thing.

[Lady Octarina]

yeah, I don't really know why but I got the dornish feel from them, maybe because of Lemore's lack of shyness or something, and the halfmaester, again, the cyvasse table is very weak as arguement but it's just a feel, you know. And well if it turns out to Lemore is Ashara wouldn't that make more sense in YG actually being Jon's twin, the older I would think, maybe Ned found himself with two newborns, one Starkish the other Targish...

Just now, I thought of something while typing, if they had been twins, and Ashara was keeping one of them, wouldn't Ned had been more concerned about Ashara's suicide? I just don't think Ned was the kind of guy to forget about a second nephew. I guess this makes for the twin theory, unless Ned knew she wasn't really dead but I don't think that was the case.

Well, I don't believe in the twins theory because I really don't see how YG being Jon's brother would add anything to the story, but you are right in one thing: Ned should have cared more about Ashara's suicide, even if it wasn't him, but Brandon, who broke her heart. Yet when Cersei mentions it, he completely ignores that, thinks nothing about Ashara, which leads me to believe that whatever excuse she came up with to leave Westeros, he knew about it, at least part of it (which doesn't mean he knew about YG, only that he knew she wasn't dead).

This is part of my issue with the approach Martin took with Jon. While we get the access to neds thoughts and dreams regarding Jon that certain characters do not, there are ample reasons for people to have suspicions about Jon. First, the fact that Ned even fathered a bastard would and did come as a shock to people. Not just because he is almost unanimously thought of as honorable, but also people don't seem to have a definite answer to who the mother is. The whole timeline of events and Lyanna disappearing with rhaegar would be enough to spark suspicion. Is there a universal opinion on what caused her death? I disagree with alot of catelyn's logic, but it's fair for her to feel disrespected by jons presence. Im not really satisfied with the reasoning that people are so disinterested with the details and rights of bastards that nobody thinks to question his birth. The timeline itself. Even though Ned is one of the most powerful lords and people might be hesitant to approach him on something he is very sensitive about, I would think all te effort put into the rebellion that someone would inquire and want specifics and might even formulate that it could be Rhaegars son. The excuse that is given is feasible an not impossible but it is kind of weak and unrealistic. I would think that Ned would have had to have a seamless and detailed story to explain the mother, how it happened, how Lyanna died and why he brought his bastard to live in winterfell with him and his family.

I agree that it's weird no one would have wondered if for all those months Lyanna was with Rhaegar she didn't get pregnant or anything. On the other hand, there's what Apple Martini said, plus people only see what they want, and with Robert "Ours is the fury" on the throne, I don't think that many people wanted to see who Jon could actually be anyway...

[corbon]

This is part of my issue with the approach Martin took with Jon. While we get the access to neds thoughts and dreams regarding Jon that certain characters do not, there are ample reasons for people to have suspicions about Jon. First, the fact that Ned even fathered a bastard would and did come as a shock to people. Not just because he is almost unanimously thought of as honorable, but also people don't seem to have a definite answer to who the mother is. The whole timeline of events and Lyanna disappearing with rhaegar would be enough to spark suspicion. Is there a universal opinion on what caused her death?

Yep. 99% of Westeros thinks Ashara was the mother. After all, Starfall is where Jon appeared, and Ashara committed suicide when Ned left with Jon. Ashara is also known to have been disgraced and possibly already rumoured to have been disgraced by a Stark. Its obvious.

When you have an obvious answer, especially one that satisfies on all sorts of levels (salacious, gossipy, tragic, noble, romantic), you don't need to go searching for more.

Robert of course thinks differently, partly because he is a moron that doesn't think at all and if Jon was his Wylla would have been the mother, and possibly partly because he knows, or doesn't believe, Ned ever had anything with Ashara.

I would think that Ned would have had to have a seamless and detailed story to explain the mother, how it happened, how Lyanna died and why he brought his bastard to live in winterfell with him and his family.

The story that other people come up with on their own is much better than the one you tell them.

It also means you don't have to lie and can't be caught out by inconsistencies in your story.

[Sasha Steelsong]

My thinking is, Ned's reputation is such that he can say, "Lyanna died of THIS" and "Jon is my son" and no one will think twice about it. Whatever he said about Lyanna's manner of death, it must have been sufficient to answer questions, because no one in the current time — not even someone like Cersei, who still viewed Lyanna as a rival — thinks anything too strange happened or doubts his story. If it had been anyone else but Ned, it's possible that there might be more doubts. But Ned himself is pretty guileless, as shown in Game of Thrones when he tells Cersei his entire plan. It's a testament to his commitment to his sister that someone like him has been able to keep the secret for so long.

I agree. I also think the element of a paragon fallen (i.e. that even a supremely honorable man like Ned had a bastard) would keep people from questioning Ned's story. Afterall as dark as it is, humans do like to see that others aren't perfect and since he was admitting it and it made him not perfectly honorable, others might have been happy to think he had that flaw.

[The Piece Maker]

It is unusual for a noble father to bring his bastard home, yeah. Catelyn notes this — she wouldn't mind that much if Ned had a bastard, if he didn't live with them. That Ned did bring Jon home should be a clue that he's not "just" a bastard and may not be a bastard at all.

What woman would want her husband's bastard in her home, to have to see/deal with him every day? To know that EVERY ONE in her household had him there as a daily reminder that she had been wronged/disrespected. Ned knew this. Jon must be very special for Ned to treat his lady-wife so poorly.

[Ser Justin Scummy]

To me the whole R+L=J has merit. I will freely admit that until I read a thread that suggested that I believed that Jon was Ned's bastard. IT gives Ned's charcater more depht having a bastard but now That i think about all thew hints and clues that GRRM put in one could believe that Jon is the PTWP...It also help you understand why Ned didn't want to kill all the targaryens like Robert did. He was protecting Jon also should it all come out.

[Screaming Knight]

My thinking is, Ned's reputation is such that he can say, "Lyanna died of THIS" and "Jon is my son" and no one will think twice about it. Whatever he said about Lyanna's manner of death, it must have been sufficient to answer questions, because no one in the current time — not even someone like Cersei, who still viewed Lyanna as a rival — thinks anything too strange happened or doubts his story. If it had been anyone else but Ned, it's possible that there might be more doubts. But Ned himself is pretty guileless, as shown in Game of Thrones when he tells Cersei his entire plan. It's a testament to his commitment to his sister that someone like him has been able to keep the secret for so long.

This is my issue. I would think those in positions of power who went to such lengths to destroy an entire dynasty would take notice and demand explanations to a bastard that is coincidentally born around a time that would coincide with any kind of relations Lyanna may have had with rhaegar.( whether they thought it was consensual or not). And then her brother returns with an infant after he gets tipped off to her location There are plenty of paranoid people in this world. This doesn't prove or disprove anything but I wonder if Ned or someone else told people how Lyanna died, or if people knew she was dying. Seems like major details to leave out. That no one asked because the status of bastards and details of their parentage are so unimportant to people that they don't bother to find out. Look what cersei did to Barra. I guess I have to accept that people were satisfied with Ned not providing much information and because he was a bastard didn't care, even though there are holes in his story, or more like there is a story somewhere in all the holes. Id think someone would see how obvious it is and care enough to ask.

[Buried Treasure]

This is my issue. I would think those in positions of power who went to such lengths to destroy an entire dynasty would take notice and demand explanations to a bastard that is coincidentally born around a time that would coincide with any kind of relations Lyanna may have had with rhaegar.( whether they thought it was consensual or not). And then her brother returns with an infant after he gets tipped off to her location There are plenty of paranoid people in this world. This doesn't prove or disprove anything but I wonder if Ned or someone else told people how Lyanna died, or if people knew she was dying. Seems like major details to leave out. That no one asked because the status of bastards and details of their parentage are so unimportant to people that they don't bother to find out. Look what cersei did to Barra. I guess I have to accept that people were satisfied with Ned not providing much information and because he was a bastard didn't care, even though there are holes in his story, or more like there is a story somewhere in all the holes. Id think someone would see how obvious it is and care enough to ask.

Ned is one of those in a position of power. He's not going to turn on himself. But if Jon Arryn, say, had harboured suspicions about baby Jons parentage it would not have been politic to raise that suspicion. A living Targ heir is a threat to the new dynasty, but Jon was an honourable man and would not condone killing babes. However if the child is in Ned's custody and being claimed as Ned's bastard then he can't be called Rhaegar's son at the same time. The danger of Jon being used as focus of rebellion is already neutralised. Whereas asking Ned the question could make him defensive over his nephew and destabalise the alliance between the victors.

Whereas Ned dealt with most people by not answering their questions it seems that with Robert he did actually lie and say the mother was Wylla. I guess Robert accepted this answer.

[The Piece Maker]

I think that Ned's famous moral character was such that all that he had to do was say something was true and it was asumed to be true. One of the best ways to get caught in a lie is to say too much, to provide information that could possibly be disproven. Ned provided very little information about Jon. He said Jon was his and refused to speak of his mother,except to Robert when forced. No one ever thought to challange or question him because he was the honorable Ned Stark.

[Screaming Knight]

Ned is one of those in a position of power. He's not going to turn on himself. But if Jon Arryn, say, had harboured suspicions about baby Jons parentage it would not have been politic to raise that suspicion. A living Targ heir is a threat to the new dynasty, but Jon was an honourable man and would not condone killing babes. However if the child is in Ned's custody and being claimed as Ned's bastard then he can't be called Rhaegar's son at the same time. The danger of Jon being used as focus of rebellion is already neutralised. Whereas asking Ned the question could make him defensive over his nephew and destabalise the alliance between the victors.

Whereas Ned dealt with most people by not answering their questions it seems that with Robert he did actually lie and say the mother was Wylla. I guess Robert accepted this answer.

I said I understand that Ned is one of the most powerful people in westeros and that I would think someone else in a position of power i.e. Tywin lannister, would have questions. A more detailed explanation of Jon and a detailed explanation of lyannas death would seem necessary to someone like him. I completely understand how and why characters in the book are content with what knowledge they have of Jon but it doesn't compute with other scenarios in the book regarding babies that could threaten the lines of succession. Cersei plotting to kill Roberts bastards. Jaime saying a pregnant jeyne is more dangerous than the blackfish. Tywin killing the targaryen children. Did any other rebels know that the KG were at the TOJ with Lyanna? Everyone knew she was taken with rhaegar. Were they also content to believe they were not havin sex when they were together?(whether it was thought to be consensual or rape). I'd be very interested to hear an opinion from someone like tyrion or Jaime or on who they think jons parents are and how they think Lyanna died, but I guess they don't care enough.

[Red Raven]

it doesn't compute with other scenarios in the book regarding babies that could threaten the lines of succession

That only works if the interested parties who would want to kill the child even knew Lyanna was pregant, which they didn't.

She could have been sequestered in the TOJ before she began to show. There was no TMZ back then and Varys, if he knew, has remained very quiet.

Of the known people who were at the tower, only Ned and Howland survived and the only clue that we have that she even had a child is from Ned's thoughts about her bloody sheets. Ned and Reed could have agreed to say Lyanna was killed in the fighting and never mentioned a pregnancy to anyone.

Besides, Ned was bouncing all over the countryside: the Trident, King's Landing, Storm's End, (ToJ,) Starfall...he could have picked up a baby anywhere.

[zzzNitro]

@Screaming Knight, I would think that Tywin Lannister being the smart-socipath-fucker that he is would have thought or at least suspected something about it, but I guess he never got a chance to change the scale in his favor, I mean, he was the last to join Robert's side, his daughter never actually gain any love for his house from the king and his son was the kingslayer, I suppose he was clever enough to not brought it up while Ned was the best friend of the king, had Robert and Ned got into a discussion or if Ned had refused or do something to win the kings hate or at least disaproval, I bet Tywin would been there planting the seed of doubt about it, but since it didn't happen and the king died while being like brothers with the hand there was no point for it to be revealed.

Now, a Tyrion chapter putting the pieces together would be interesting, after all the dwarf and the bastard are almost friends or at least don't think of each other as enemies.

[Screaming Knight]

I think that Ned's famous moral character was such that all that he had to do was say something was true and it was asumed to be true. One of the best ways to get caught in a lie is to say too much, to provide information that could possibly be disproven. Ned provided very little information about Jon. He said Jon was his and refused to speak of his mother,except to Robert when forced. No one ever thought to challange or question him because he was the honorable Ned Stark.

I suppose neds explanation was enough for Robert, but not everyone shares that belief. I would like to hear how everyone thinks Lyanna died. What did Ned tell everyone happened to Lyanna? Murdered by rhaegar or the kingsguard? He returned her to winterfell so people know he found her. Regarding lyannas death, I can understand everyone respecting neds wishes if he does not want to get into the details of her death. I'll just have to live with that everyone was satisfied with whatever they heard about Jon and didn't give a shit beyond that.

[Screaming Knight]

That only works if the interested parties who would want to kill the child even knew Lyanna was pregant, which they didn't.

She could have been sequestered in the TOJ before she began to show. There was no TMZ back then and Varys, if he knew, has remained very quiet.

Of the known people who were at the tower, only Ned and Howland survived and the only clue that we have that she even had a child is from Ned's thoughts about her bloody sheets. Ned and Reed could have agreed to say Lyanna was killed in the fighting and never mentioned a pregnancy to anyone.

Besides, Ned was bouncing all over the countryside: the Trident, King's Landing, Storm's End, (ToJ,) Starfall...he could have picked up a baby anywhere.

Yes, or his sister had Rhaegars baby....no way if tywin lannister suspected anything he wouldn't have done something about it. You added to my point. Someone like tywin, you would think, would have considered it a possibility. But he didn't. If he knew he would've done what needed to be done for those suspicions to surface.( if he didn't do it himself). Maybe we will eventually get in someones head who will tell us the most popular opinions regarding Jon and how Lyanna died and this will all be cleared up for me. After reading the books and coming to the conclusion that R+L=J and then seeing on here even more hard evidence from people that I never even picked up on it really started to bother me that there isn't any character suspicious of it or a better alibi. Or even a half decent alibi for that matter.

[Ser Justin Scummy]

I just came up with the craziest idea...while I want to bleieve Jon is a targ consider this and I am probly wrong but it is somthing to chew on

Septa Lemore=Lyanna

Aegon/Yg= Son of R+L....

[Dragonfish]

Septa Lemore=Lyanna

I don't think so. Ned recalls that Lyanna "gave up her hold on life", and that Howland found him cradling her body. George also mentioned in an interview a few months back that Rhaegar and Lyanna were "dead characters," so at this point her death is basically confirmed.

Aegon/Yg= Son of R+L....

I'm not sure if there's anything that can outright refute this, but there are a couple holes:

1) If R+L=YG and Jon is Ned's son, then why does Ned recall that he has "lived lies" for fourteen years? Along the same lines, what "price" would he have paid for keeping his promises to Lyanna, if they merely involved giving YG away?

2) What does the vision of the blue rose growing from a wall of ice refer to, if not to a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna being on the Wall?

Honestly, I think R+L=J is still the strongest theory of Jon's parentage, as most of the alternative theories still can't answer even these basic questions.

[Red Raven]

Someone like tywin, you would think, would have considered it a possibility.

Tywin, as shrewd as he is, isn't omniscient. For example, he never considered his mistreatment of Tyrion would come back to bite him. If he thought to consider an alternative for Jon's origins he probably dismissed it; officially, the boy had no rights, he was way up north and would probably end up on the Wall anyway. Tywin didn't bother Aemon and probably didn't feel the need to waste his energy on Jon. Most others probably thought the same. If Varys knows he's biding his time for his own reasons.

If Tywin really needed to get rid of Jon he had plenty of money to hire a Faceless Man.

Frankly, I don't think anyone cared. Robert was the only one grinding his teeth over known living Targaryens Viserys and Daenerys (Jorah told Daenerys as much), why would Jon even blip on anyone (besides Robert's) radar?