Screaming Knight Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I've already answered this — Ned's reputation was strong enough that if he said something, people believed it. He was one of the people in power and his friends were the king and the Hand of the King. Whatever suspicions people may have had, if they had any, would have been shot down pretty quickly before they disappeared altogether. That no one in the modern time shows suspicion should be evident that whatever explanation Ned gave, people found it satisfactory. If that's not an a good enough answer for you, then I doubt anything will be.As other people have mentioned, it wouldn't be unusual at all for a lord on the road for a year in a war zone to come home with a bastard. It wouldn't have been out of the ordinary and probably not as suspicious as you suggest.And I already responded to your answer. I was quoting to someone else this time. And I will say again that I understand that is why there are no suspicions but I find it to be a very weak reason given all the other situations that I mentioned. I know it wouldn't be unusual for a lord to return from war with a bastard child, but ned's situation should not be as black and white, but it is and I get that. Do you not see all of the other variables involved that could've sparked suspicion? Let me reiterate that I am not asking for an answer to why there was no suspicion, I'm only stating my disappointment with the reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falrinn Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Allow me to digress: I often wonder how history would have been different if whenever a king didn't produce a male heir they'd just take one of their bastards or allow some one to impregnate their queen, lock her up for 9 months and then say "hey, here's my son, you owe him allegiance, etc.". It would have avoided so many wars...Then again, maybe they did.There's plenty of instances where undeniably legitimate infant Kings were swiftly deposed by more influential and established relatives. The truth was a child (especially an infant) could only rule if they had an effective and loyal regent, divine right be dammed. We see this a little in Westeros when Renly openly usurped Stannis's claim the the throne, and actually had more support then Stannis did prior to his untimely death. Probably would of conquered King's Landing if he was able to assault it with the armies of both the Stormlands and the Reach.At any rate, I don't think many people would of suspected Jon as being anything other then Ned's bastard. We, the readers, knows how Ned was honorable to a fault, but that doesn't mean the other characters saw him that way. Most people likely just had a vague understanding that Ned was the Lord of the North. They knew he was loyal to Robert, but most simply don't know him enough to realize that there is no way Ned would of fathered a bastard so quickly after his wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I'm having a tough time conveying my thoughts clearly I guess. I believe R+L=J. I believe it partly because of Ned's thoughts of rhaegar when he was at the brothel and his dream in the dungeon. I primarily believe it because of the KG being at the TOJ and there he found Lyanna in her bed of blood. I have reason to believe everyone knows Ned was involved in a fight with the KG based on cersei's words to Ned about ashara. I have to believe that cersei would have talked to jaime about this. They seemed to share everything with one another. And the timing of events alone are so blatantly obvious that anyone who gave these events, the possibility of rhaegar and Lyanna having intercourse, and Ned returning with a bastard son while refusing to speak of the mother, a little bit of thought could come to the conclusion that this bastard may be the son rhaegar targaryen. And that is a very big deal. One more time, I am annoyed( not skeptical) that I have to believe because Ned said it and that no one gives a shit about bastards that everyone kept quiet on the matter. I mean Jon could possibly be a Targaryen and a Stark. If anyone in a position of power suspected that they would without a doubt bring it forward. It would seem so obvious that many other lords ( especially southern lords) would support it, because of the threat someone with those blood lines would pose. So, I'm sorry but I'm not askingto be convinced why no one suspects it. I already know. Just wanted to state how weak the reason is that I am to believe why no one questions his parentage like we do. Cersei: Ned stark has a bastard son. He says the mother is someone named wylla but I think it's Ashara DayneTywin: well Ned never lies and who gives a damn about a bastard anyway. That works for me. Sorry for the sarcasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I'm having a tough time conveying my thoughts clearly I guess. I believe R+L=J. I believe it partly because of Ned's thoughts of rhaegar when he was at the brothel and his dream in the dungeon. I primarily believe it because of the KG being at the TOJ and there he found Lyanna in her bed of blood. I have reason to believe everyone knows Ned was involved in a fight with the KG based on cersei's words to Ned about ashara. I have to believe that cersei would have talked to jaime about this. They seemed to share everything with one another. And the timing of events alone are so blatantly obvious that anyone who gave these events, the possibility of rhaegar and Lyanna having intercourse, and Ned returning with a bastard son while refusing to speak of the mother, a little bit of thought could come to the conclusion that this bastard may be the son rhaegar targaryen. And that is a very big deal. One more time, I am annoyed( not skeptical) that I have to believe because Ned said it and that no one gives a shit about bastards that everyone kept quiet on the matter. I mean Jon could possibly be a Targaryen and a Stark. If anyone in a position of power suspected that they would without a doubt bring it forward. It would seem so obvious that many other lords ( especially southern lords) would support it, because of the threat someone with those blood lines would pose. So, I'm sorry but I'm not askingto be convinced why no one suspects it. I already know. Just wanted to state how weak the reason is that I am to believe why no one questions his parentage like we do.Cersei: Ned stark has a bastard son. He says the mother is someone named wylla but I think it's Ashara DayneTywin: well Ned never lies and who gives a damn about a bastard anyway. That works for me. Sorry for the sarcasm.But would anyone believe someone if they came forward? Whoever came forward would have to be on an equal footing with Ned — so Hoster Tully (who wouldn't come forward), Jon Arryn (who wouldn't come forward), Robert Baratheon (who wouldn't come forward), Balon Greyjoy (I doubt he'd care), Doran Martell (who I can see having doubts), Mace Tyrell (same) and Tywin Lannister (I really don't think he'd care; I think he'd see Ned's bastard as beneath his notice). You're not going to see the Fossoways or the Crakehalls or whoever pressing a claim against the Warden of the North. The guys who might press a claim that Jon isn't Ned's bastard are the ones on the wrong side of the war, and why would Robert listen to what they said anyway, when he himself chooses to believe Ned?Look what happened when Stannis (correctly) said that Joffrey was a bastard. Most of the houses wrote it off as a lie and put it down to Stannis wanting the throne for himself. I see absolutely no evidence that any claim against Ned would be met with any less skepticism. Ned must have said something about Jon's mother, because Robert knew to think of Wylla. And someone in Ned's service had to spread something about the Ashara Dayne rumor for it to be as prevalent as it is. I think that Ned avoids talking about Jon's mother to Catelyn, but it seems obvious that someone in authority did at one time ask him and he had to provide an acceptable answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Justin Scummy Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I don't think Robert knew about Jon' parentage cause I am not sure if his love for Lyanna was more then his hatred for targyens...But I suspect that Jon Arryn knew....I believe he knew all of it...Ned had to trust someone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 But I suspect that Jon Arryn knew....I believe he knew all of it...Ned had to trust someoneI don't even think he knew. I think the people who know/knew were the ones at the Tower and no one else. The risk was too great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Justin Scummy Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 When i think about it Jon Arryn knowing is plausibleWhy did he become Roberts Hand and not Ned from the beginning...He was old even then with no heir why would he want to fo to KL instead of back to the vale....I think he took the post as Hand so that Ned could take Jon back to the North to raise away from everyone else...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 When i think about it Jon Arryn knowing is plausibleWhy did he become Roberts Hand and not Ned from the beginning...He was old even then with no heir why would he want to fo to KL instead of back to the vale....I think he took the post as Hand so that Ned could take Jon back to the North to raise away from everyone else......Jon Arryn made perfect sense as Hand. Robert was still relatively young then (as was Ned) and likely needed the guidance of someone more experienced, hence Jon. And it's not about him wanting it. It's about Robert asking him to do it and Jon saying, "Yes." When Robert asks, you say yes. Just ask Ned.Jon Arryn, 99% likely, didn't know anything about Jon's parentage. No evidence that he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming Knight Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 But would anyone believe someone if they came forward? Whoever came forward would have to be on an equal footing with Ned — so Hoster Tully (who wouldn't come forward), Jon Arryn (who wouldn't come forward), Robert Baratheon (who wouldn't come forward), Balon Greyjoy (I doubt he'd care), Doran Martell (who I can see having doubts), Mace Tyrell (same) and Tywin Lannister (I really don't think he'd care; I think he'd see Ned's bastard as beneath his notice). You're not going to see the Fossoways or the Crakehalls or whoever pressing a claim against the Warden of the North. The guys who might press a claim that Jon isn't Ned's bastard are the ones on the wrong side of the war, and why would Robert listen to what they said anyway, when he himself chooses to believe Ned?Look what happened when Stannis (correctly) said that Joffrey was a bastard. Most of the houses wrote it off as a lie and put it down to Stannis wanting the throne for himself. I see absolutely no evidence that any claim against Ned would be met with any less skepticism. Ned must have said something about Jon's mother, because Robert knew to think of Wylla. And someone in Ned's service had to spread something about the Ashara Dayne rumor for it to be as prevalent as it is. I think that Ned avoids talking about Jon's mother to Catelyn, but it seems obvious that someone in authority did at one time ask him and he had to provide an acceptable answer.You're right, it would be problematic for anyone with suspicions to bring them forward to Robert. I'm primarily focused on tywin. In stannis's situation, he wasnt a loved and admired person to begin with and people were willing to dismiss his accusations as trying to steal the throne. But tywin, while he would see ned's bastard as beneath him, would also see the threat he would pose to his family. I'm sure he knew of ned's disgust with the murder of the 2 children and if he had suspicions of jon's parents, he may have also had concerns with what ned's intentions were. He might think that Ned was so disgusted that he would try and claim the throne for Jon while revealing his true parents. Now we know that Ned wouldn't do that, but that would be the truly honorable thing to do ( decide he won't serve under a regime that would condone the murder of children and present Jon as the rightful heir). I don't think tywin would be hesitant to act on this knowledge because he came late to Roberts cause. I think he would see it as a threat and do what he had to do to remove that threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 This thread's passed 400 posts awhile ago. Please feel free to start v. 22 of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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