Heresy 7

[lokisnow]

@yestoitall, great first post! You have brought up some important points and I agree! I also wanted to mention that I believe that it's very possible that the greenseers can use any tree, not just weirwoods, and that tree probably dosen't even need a face. I think they use the weirwoods for starters and the faces as well for training and later they aren't needed. It has to be extremely complicated to learn how to do it and the faces help along with the weirwoods considering they are probably "magical".

And there is surely a parallel to the faceless men in this paragraph...

oh the insights we can mine.

I agree that Bloodraven is something/somewhat undead, very much akin to Quarth--and Bran has visions ala Dany's in Quarth. another parallel! selection bias for the win.

The Faceless men also have something going on with undeadness, Arya gets the memories of the girl whose face she takes, and in a sense, by taking her place, the girl lives again, even as she is dead, Arya becomes undead in order to be faceless. (circular logic, whee!)

All of these creatures seem to have swapped out their natural life force - blood, if you want - for an elemental substitute of some kind. They've bypassed their internal batteries and are plugged directly into the wall socket. Or something like that

This is a truly exciting heresy. The undead greenseers have swapped out their blood for weirwood sap, the undead minions of the Drowned God have swapped out their blood for water, the undead minions of R'hllor have swapped out their blood for fire, the undead minions of the Others have swapped out their blood for ice, the undead minions of Quarth has swapped out their blood for some drug, the undead minions of the Faceless men have swapped out their blood for?

In a somewhat related heresy, I had a thread called "is Melisandre a Fire-wight?" that got little traction back during the days of "search-function-disabled" most people got very upset at the semantics of using the term wight, but I still feel like there is definitely a relationship, if she is indeed undead--as the text STRONGLY implies--then there's something important going on with R'hollor priests and priestesses being undead (and perhaps having undergone the fire ritual equivalent of the symbolic drowning of the drowned god followers)

edit: of course Gregorstein is also undead. Will he become the Seven's Champion in an unexpected twist?

[Eyron]

I don't think the FM have undead, their god is death. The one true god... Living forever would be kind of a herecy to them.

[Black Crow]

Let the internet connection go down to 24 hours and look what happens while I'm away...

Some really good stuff on the Wall, to which I'll just add one nagging little thought. We are faced with conflicting evidence as to whether or not Wights and presumably by extension White Walkers can pass through.

Coldhands says he cannot pass, which on the surface is straightforward enough since he has to send Sam and Gilly through to fetch Bran and Co.

What if he's lying about not being able to go through?

As to what's really going on, I'm still of the belief as discussed before with Eira, that things are as they are because the Red lot upset the balance long long ago when the Pact was broken and that it must now be restored not by defeating a chimerical invasion by the Others, but by defeating the Red lot.

Jon, as I've pointed out is an Ice Dragon - really really is.

If the Song of Ice and Fire is at heart The Ice Dragon writ (very) large then the bittersweet ending will see Jon kept alive by the old magic as the King of Winter and as the Ice Dragon coming to save Arya/Adara, slaying Dany and her three dragons to defeat the Red lot, but like the original Ice Dragon dying in the process.

[Lummel]

... The Wall will stand as long as the Night's Watch remains true; or something similar. So going off of that...

What if part of the pact with the COTF, and part of the NW remaining true has to do with the weirwoods along the Wall? What if the weirwoods aids the magic within the Wall that in turns protects the passge of white walkers? We know the WW have been active for much longer than first perception, so could that tie in with the weirwoods along the Wall being cut down or whatever happened with them? ( we have discussed that it's strange they do not have weirwoods at the castle's along the Wall before ) We suspect that the weirwoods offer some type of protection, like when Jon and other members find wildings and a giant waiting in the weirwood grove. Could not having weirwoogs weaken the magic spells in the Wall, but maybe take a little time to happen? Could the Night's Watch being true mean being true to the Old Gods, the old way, the children and the pact? We know the First Men cut down, or burned, weirwoods before the truce where the FM even changed faith to the Old Gods, so that has to be a part of the pact, to protect the weirwoods. Maybe it was a part of the start of the NW also, and has been lost in time like other things...

I like the idea of the change in faith from old gods to the Secret Seven having an impact and if part of "being true" is swearing the oath to a weirwood then the watch is a lot weaker than we thought!

Another thought on the weirwoods playing a role in being a part of the magical barrier - if Wildlings are gathering round weirwoods for safety from wights maybe they have an ability to repulse the wights and white walkers. I'm close to imagining that the original wall might have been a weirwood hedge. Or maybe weirwood was used in the construction somehow, or did the wall run from clump of weirwoods to clump of weirwoods and incorporate them whole into the structure of the wall?

[Eyron]

I also have a question; what was the exact quote? ( Old Nan maybe) The Wall will stand as long as the Night's Watch remains true; or something similar.

It's Old Nan, in ADwD, I stole this from Cap Ou Pas Cap, in the heresy 6 thread...

Bran found himself remembering the tales Old Nan had told him when he was a babe. Beyond

the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she

would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall

stands strong and the men of the Night’s Watch are true.

[Lummel]

... I also wanted to mention that I believe that it's very possible that the greenseers can use any tree, not just weirwoods, and that tree probably dosen't even need a face. I think they use the weirwoods for starters and the faces as well for training and later they aren't needed...

Intersting then that the wildlings in ADWD are carving faces on trees south of the wall, whether they are conscious or unconscious of the significance of doing that.

[Lummel]

This is a truly exciting heresy. The undead greenseers have swapped out their blood for weirwood sap, the undead minions of the Drowned God have swapped out their blood for water, the undead minions of R'hllor have swapped out their blood for fire, the undead minions of the Others have swapped out their blood for ice, the undead minions of Quarth has swapped out their blood for some drug, the undead minions of the Faceless men have swapped out their blood for?

In a somewhat related heresy, I had a thread called "is Melisandre a Fire-wight?" that got little traction back during the days of "search-function-disabled" most people got very upset at the semantics of using the term wight, but I still feel like there is definitely a relationship, if she is indeed undead--as the text STRONGLY implies--then there's something important going on with R'hollor priests and priestesses being undead (and perhaps having undergone the fire ritual equivalent of the symbolic drowning of the drowned god followers)

Praise be to Hotweaselsoup for the idea of being plugged into the mains (clearly Black Crow's internet needs something similar).

Getting back to Ice and Fire, Life and death are the two most obvious oppositions in nature (ice preserves and fire consumes). Perhaps the original transgression that overthrew the balance was an attempt to escape death, or more basically the conditions for life are best when ice and fire are in balance. If either one is too strong life can't exist.

[FanTasy]

What does the word 'song' imply to you? When you talk about sides, it sounds as though you are reading the word song as though it means the same as battle or conflict. I can imagine why you do this, because I think all readers do this, first time round, into that prologue, the royce boy killed by the white walker - it sets up the idea of conflict. But the title of the series is not 'the conflict between ice and fire' it is 'a song of ice and fire'.

To me that means we've got to put the conflict and the battle to one side and think about singing, at least for a little bit. No conclusions here, just some ideas.

Liked your post a lot, Lummel. A song is not always about harmony though, there are songs in classical music that are written as a battle. Not only duets of course, lots of songs, also in popular music, show internal battle.

I think GRRM uses 'song' in both ways. As fight/conflict and as harmony, coming together.

Nice you picked up on Arya's name! Her name struck me from the beginning as possibly not coincidental, as her character was described in one of the Bran chapters in AGOT. An aria is the form in which we see a character separate himself from the actions of others, talking to himself, lamenting but also deciding on actions. while other characters are off stage (there are some stage directions which don't stick to tradition though). Don't know if GRRM is into opera and maybe he chose Arya's name for different reasons, but if not it is a nice touch.

About Jon being the Ice Dragon. I like it, Black Crow. It doesn't solve the 'loss of harmony' issue completely, in my opinion. If Jon is the one predestined to restore balance, being the product of ice and fire, who or what was before him that secured the balance? Was there another example beforehand of a union between ice and fire? And what made the loss of balance occur?

[Lummel]

Heh, yes I suppose Arya is having a pretty operatic set of adventures, dramatic escapes, soliloquies, unfeasible disguises. Generally speaking though when there is conflict within a piece of music isn't is meant to be resolved?

[Eyron]

In a somewhat related heresy, I had a thread called "is Melisandre a Fire-wight?" that got little traction back during the days of "search-function-disabled" most people got very upset at the semantics of using the term wight, but I still feel like there is definitely a relationship, if she is indeed undead--as the text STRONGLY implies--then there's something important going on with R'hollor priests and priestesses being undead (and perhaps having undergone the fire ritual equivalent of the symbolic drowning of the drowned god followers)

I have argued a similar case, but I don't think she is most similar to the wights, but the white walkers themselves.

In any case she is not human per my definition anymore, she has transcended a mortal life.

[FanTasy]

To better convey what that way might be, we need to examine the "anatomy" of the Others. When the Other Sam stabbed dies, first its armour melts and runs down around the dragonglass. Plainly enough, that would mean the armour is made of some kind of ice, magically enhanced to provide protection while remaining thin enough to allow for graceful movements and the "rippling" effect that is described. The creature itself tries to touch the dragonglass with its hands, but where its palms touch it they begin to smoke. That tells us two things - firstly, although the armour is made of ice, the creature itself plainly isn't, else the palms would be melting as well, not smoking. Secondly, we know that the armour does not cover the entirety of the Other's body - the palms at least, and presumably other parts, are exposed. Finally, the Other dissolves into fine white mist.

One way to account for such metaphysical behaviour is to assume that the Other's body is made of frozen vapour. It would make it light enough to walk on snow without leaving prints, it would explain the "dissolves into fine white mist" part - when the the magic that holds it all together is no more, the vapour would warm up to at least the temperature of its surroundings which would produce this effect. Finally it would explain how the Other meant to dispose of Sam at close quarters - simply touch him on the face with his palms. We have no idea how cold the Other's body is, for we have no account of anyone or anything besides the obsidian touching it (the obsidian was icy-cold after), but I think assuming anything between -50* and -250* C would not be unwarranted. If anything that cold touches human skin, the shock alone would kill. Now there is to consider the effect the touch would have on the Other itself - for now I will not speculate on that, for we know too little.

Liked this a lot, Solmyr! Glad you joined this thread.

The white walkers as solidified mist, nice catch! It solves some things (the lack of footprints, which bugged me a lot, the association with the white mist). I also like it because of the associations with the opposing force: the shadows that are created by Melisandre. It shows that her powers can't kill in itself, she needs a weapon to do the deed. Her shadowbaby is her weapon. I'd have to check but I suppose that in the birthing scene what comes out of her may be described as a mist, a vapor. It is described by Brienne, Catelyn and Davos as a shadow. Well, basically that is what mist or a vapor is: it creates something that hinders to see what it covers, as a shadow does.

Melisandre somewhere says that shadows are the children of light and can only be created by fire.

I think the white walkers are shadows created by ice, by cold. Fire can destroy and create, as can ice.

The white walkers are described (in ASOS, last Jon chapter if I recall correctly) by Stannis and Melisandre as demons of ice and cold.

I think the white walkers are created of frozen cold, ETA they are the solidified essence of cold.

They remind me of the white vapor you see when something is preserved in intense cold (nitrogen). I thought about their essence possibly being nitrohydrochloric acid, which interestingly is called 'kings water'. But that isn't blue, and the white walker we saw melted into a blue puddle.

If the white walkers are solidified essence of cold, it doesn't explain the sacrificing of Craster's sons. ETA unless there is another parallel: only death can pay for life, or: only the tapping off of life force (like Melisandre did to Stannis) can pay for life.

Edited for fuzzy English

[FanTasy]

Heh, yes I suppose Arya is having a pretty operatic set of adventures, dramatic escapes, soliloquies, unfeasible disguises. Generally speaking though when there is conflict within a piece of music isn't is meant to be resolved?

You're right, our 'ears' want a closing to a piece of music in which harmony is restored. The pieces where the composer leaves us without this happening some people find very disturbing, It leaves a void, something that has to be filled, 'balanced'.

[Eyron]

One thing though, if they are spirits of compressed mist (or some such) why do they have a skeleton core and blue blood?

I think that they have bones is important, and that it's the flesh that is created from the cold mist (it was the flesh that blew away into a mist, the bones melted). The bones do not seem like regular bones though, so it could be that they were regular before but have been magically altered and resurrected from ice magic.

Edit: sp

[Leto]

Hello!

Nice thread(s)! Did a lot of thread-reading/searching since I found my way to this forum but I'd be lying if I said I covered it all. So apologies if I'm walking up pre-paved path.

Like many people in this thread, I've been contemplating the "Song issue" as well as the religions. And I'm starting to think that all of the religions are just reflections of a non-divine entity, namely magic (or the seasons) which is in fact the song of ice and fire.

What?

Well all our earthly religions center around the sun, and its movements. Major holy days/traditions and what not are centered around the solstices and equinoxes. The main thematic discrepancies in religions are often decided by geography. e.g. In Egypt the scorching sun was feared and thusly Ra was a vengeful god, in Scandinavia the sun was highly anticipated and celebrate during the summer solstice since it marked prosperity.

So what does that ramble have to do with long seasons, others and fire gods?

First. We have absolutely zero proof of any kind of divine intervention from any god mentioned in the book.

The seven

zip

The drowned god

zip. You do have CPR which is a trick learned in priest school

R'hllor

visions - shared with warlocks, greenseers, Old gods and random dreaming people. More likely a magic trick that the red priests pick up in priest school.

Resurrection - resurrection or general death defying abilities are shared by many in this world. E.g.The undying, white walkers, R'hllor, Drowned god

Healing - Seems like any old blood magic or just killing infection with burning..

Old god

Warging/tree-net/visions. Well wee see very clear indication that this is just magic manipulated by "priests". I.e tricks from priest school.

etc etc.

It is very clear that there is magic going on, very little proof that there is any divinity tied to it. Moreover, the magical accomplishments seem to be very similar in nature with local twists.

So my speculation is. There is no god. Each god just represents the hardship and prosperity for the local population, and this is tied to the seasons. The song of ice and fire is just a metaphor for time and the cyclical nature of magic and probably history (as the song is sung over and over).

The thought was much clearer in my head that it turned out in print, I'll just blame that on the post count.

[Eyron]

What started off as some scribblings on a piece of paper, probably from early in December, intended as a thought-out and hopefully coherent expression of some ideas regarding ASOIAF, has evolved into a hopelessly complicated notebook, which defies all attempts to

Let's start with the Greenseers. I think everybody seems to agree that their abilities allow them to view events through the weirnet, encompassing anything that took place within the sight of one of the faces carved into a weirwood tree (and possibly other locations as well…), from present day to thousands of years ago. What I don't think has been discussed on the thread is the unique position this puts the Greenseers in.

Welcome, nice first post!

I'm not sure it has been discussed, but it follows from what we know of them. I don't think it has been ignored, but it does not really automatically imply that Bloodraven has transcended every other loyalty he may have. I personally think he has, and agree with your post, but he could still have a personal agenda.

[FanTasy]

One thing though, if they are spirits of compressed mist (or some such) why do they have a skeleton core and blue blood?

I think that they have bones is important, and that it's the flesh that is created from the cold mist (it was the flesh that blew away into a mist, the bones melted). The bones do not seem like regular bones though, so it could be that they were regular before but have been magically altered and resurrected from ice magic.

Edit: sp

Yes, the skeletons are different (I suppose, we never saw one of Melisandre's shadowbaby's attacked and died dying). Maybe that is why the Craster sons come in.

Considering bones: there is an added scene in the TV Show Season 1 where Jaime is talking to Jon about what humans are: sacks of flesh held together by bones. This scene is not in AGOT The novel.

When we discussed the importance of bones in one of the earlier Heresy threads I looked for where these lines could come from, maybe they are borrowed from another character,. Haven't stumbled upon it, though. So it may have just been lines to flesh out :devil: Jaime's character.

But yes, there are bones that hold the white walkers together. There is a difference with Melisandre's shadowbaby's. Another difference is that the shadowbaby's don't seem to have an extended life: they are throwaway killers, created for one specific task.

The white walkers, the ice demons, seem to have an extended life.

Hmm ... for now I stick with my theorette that the white walkers are solidified essence of cold, held up by bones, which may be the contribution of human sacrifies. Or, as someone brought up (sorry, forgot who) the bones inside the white walkers are a sign of an association with the weirwoods.

[Lummel]

Heh, "the bones remember".

Maybe a structure is required to have something that the solidified cold mist can be built around in the same way that our muscles are attached to the skeletal structure, but equally maybe there is a magical reason - "the bones remember" how to move maybe or perhaps they give some human understanding to the white walkers or something similar.

[FanTasy]

Heh, "the bones remember".

Maybe a structure is required to have something that the solidified cold mist can be built around in the same way that our muscles are attached to the skeletal structure, but equally maybe there is a magical reason - "the bones remember" how to move maybe or perhaps they give some human understanding to the white walkers or something similar.

Yep, as in the wights. When you hack them in pieces the individual pieces do not die. Only when the bones are cracked (the wolf getting to the marrow) the body parts stop being active.

There was a wight who was decapitated. It didn't stop him from taking the head of the black brother who did it.

Makes me wonder what happens to a white walker when decapitated. Their fysiology seems quite complex, they have a language. You'd expect that their brain is more important for being active than is the case with the wights.

Gruesome thought: this could also be where the Craster sons could come in.

There is a line in one of the Arya chapters which is a sticky poster to my thoughts, where she says that you can kill every wizard by chopping off his head.

Maybe it destroys them too. Maybe this is where the vulnerability ETA of the white walkers to iron comes into the picture. The wights don't care about steel and obsidian doesn't stop them.

Well, I guess we need to witness more fights with white walkers to know more about them. I can't wait :devil: The next one will probably be at Castle Black, soon after the attack on Jon.

[Eyron]

Lummel, Or since the bones remember they are who they once were, with a new body... better, stronger, faster...

If the mind is intact via memories remaining in the bones, the language would be too, and memory of past loyalties. And we all know they speak the old tongue since we made it canon in the last thread ;) I just wonder who they will be loyal to *cough*Starks*cough*... :leaving:

[ghost the direwolf]

Question sorry to put in like this, i have been following this from the begining i have a question for " Black Crow" and all of you

Who is the 3eye crow? I really thought it was Bloodraven. I am now very very confused.

Thanks.