Three theories on Roose Bolton (The fate of Domeric, Last day in Harrenhal, Lady Dustin)

[Frey Pie]

We dont have any true evidence as far as i remember of roose performing magic using the leeches as Mel did.I would say hes uses the leeched blood to not only thin his own blood and the madness he holds at bay which Ramsey doesnt but also possibly to use as a type of transfusion later to preserve his own youth?Theres theories that Qyburn was using all the women Cersei gave him to cure Gregor or keep him alive.Might not Roose be able to do something like that with his own blood?

Also the flaying while being a form of mockery in my opinion is also an extremely potent method of torturing.

Ananta i would assume any offspring of the NK would be half human half other therefore half stark half other.

Craster is described as nearing the end of his years.Hes obviously still fit but must be pretty old.Therefore Bran i dont think Sams assurement that the 3horn calls hadnt been blown for hundreds of years is foolproof.

Good to see more people joining the thread!

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Roose may be manipulating Ramsay. As a Bolton bastard, Ramsay's actions cannot be directly imputed to Roose himself. Roose has taken advantage of his lack of direct responsibility for Ramsay by using him as his cat's paw. Ramsay was free to commit atrocities - forcibly marrying Lady Hornwood to expand Bolton lands, razing Winterfell to undermine the Starks, etc. - that Roose was not free to do himself. Now that Roose is ruling the North by force, however, he no longer has any incentive to distance himself from Ramsay. At the same time, Ramsay is rapidly outiving his usefulness, and Roose may come to view him in this stage as more of a liabiliity than an asset.

The relationship between Roose and Ramsay is analagous to that of Tywin and Clegane. In wartime, Clegane is good for waging total war on the Lannisters' enemies. In peacetime, Clegane is disposable, which is why Tywin readily agreed for him to duel Oberyn.

[Frey Pie]

Roose may be manipulating Ramsay. As a Bolton bastard, Ramsay's actions cannot be directly imputed to Roose himself. Roose has taken advantage of his lack of direct responsibility for Ramsay by using him as his cat's paw. Ramsay was free to commit atrocities - forcibly marrying Lady Hornwood to expand Bolton lands, razing Winterfell to undermine the Starks, etc. - that Roose was not free to do himself. Now that Roose is ruling the North by force, however, he no longer has any incentive to distance himself from Ramsay. At the same time, Ramsay is rapidly outiving his usefulness, and Roose may come to view him in this stage as more of a liabiliity than an asset.

The relationship between Roose and Ramsay is analagous to that of Tywin and Clegane. In wartime, Clegane is good for waging total war on the Lannisters' enemies. In peacetime, Clegane is disposable, which is why Tywin readily agreed for him to duel Oberyn.

However he did have Ramsey legitamized and even defends his attrocities slightly when talking to Robb and Catelyn

[bemused]

There's simply too much being read into things here... . Yes GRRM plants clues , foreshadows, lays the groundwork for future revelations.. but not everything is a clue. Too many dots are being connected , IMO.

Page 460 , hardcover, ADwD...There is no silver coin mentioned in Bran's vision of the " sacrifice " which may have been a sacrifice, or an execution for a crime , as far as we know .

Roose may have lots of silver, but other people would have silver too ( little Walder wasn't promised his weight in silver ) ,and it's very likely the silver was an empty promise , if silver was actually ever mentioned . It's also very possible that there was never any silver involved at all and that whole part of it was a cover story.

I think it's very possible to make a case that Roose could have been involved in the death..but for purely political and tactical reasons , without necessarily making the leap to necromancy.

I posted something about this before, way back somewhere... can't look right now.

[WetHair]

Nan/Arya is the one who removes Bolton's leeches; doesn't it seem likely that if she had been asked to keep them that would have been odd enough for her to mention?

[brashcandy]

We dont have any true evidence as far as i remember of roose performing magic using the leeches as Mel did.I would say hes uses the leeched blood to not only thin his own blood and the madness he holds at bay which Ramsey doesnt but also possibly to use as a type of transfusion later to preserve his own youth?Theres theories that Qyburn was using all the women Cersei gave him to cure Gregor or keep him alive.Might not Roose be able to do something like that with his own blood?

Also the flaying while being a form of mockery in my opinion is also an extremely potent method of torturing.

Ananta i would assume any offspring of the NK would be half human half other therefore half stark half other.

Craster is described as nearing the end of his years.Hes obviously still fit but must be pretty old.Therefore Bran i dont think Sams assurement that the 3horn calls hadnt been blown for hundreds of years is foolproof.

Good to see more people joining the thread!

Great points. I agree that's he not using the leeches for anything afterwards, but curbing his own madness. He's been doing it for so long, however, that he's pretty much unable to feel anything. Roose has stripped himself of all the cares and concerns and passions and preoccupations of ordinary men and he's as close to something "Other" than human as a human being can get.

There's simply too much being read into things here... . Yes GRRM plants clues , foreshadows, lays the groundwork for future revelations.. but not everything is a clue. Too many dots are being connected , IMO.

Page 460 , hardcover, ADwD...There is no silver coin mentioned in Bran's vision of the " sacrifice " which may have been a sacrifice, or an execution for a crime , as far as we know .

Roose may have lots of silver, but other people would have silver too ( little Walder wasn't promised his weight in silver ) ,and it's very likely the silver was an empty promise , if silver was actually ever mentioned . It's also very possible that there was never any silver involved at all and that whole part of it was a cover story.

I think it's very possible to make a case that Roose could have been involved in the death..but for purely political and tactical reasons , without necessarily making the leap to necromancy.

I posted something about this before, way back somewhere... can't look right now.

I stand guilty as charged :) My only defence is to say that when we throw out these connections it's really just to see what others think, highlight curiosities and then go forth armed with new insights. Many ideas get left behind. I have considered that Roose could have done it for tactical reasons- right away he spurs on the men to go to battle against Stannis - but the whole point of this thread is that there's much more to Roose's activities than simply military strategies - so that's always going to be a factor in any analysis right now.

[Frey Pie]

Nan/Arya is the one who removes Bolton's leeches; doesn't it seem likely that if she had been asked to keep them that would have been odd enough for her to mention?

Good call.She removes them yet never says what is done with them so it may stull be speculated they are used for something.Not saying they are but who knows?

Great points. I agree that's he not using the leeches for anything afterwards, but curbing his own madness. He's been doing it for so long, however, that he's pretty much unable to feel anything. Roose has stripped himself of all the cares and concerns and passions and preoccupations of ordinary men and he's as close to something "Other" than human as a human being can get.

I stand guilty as charged :) My only defence is to say that when we throw out these connections it's really just to see what others think, highlight curiosities and then go forth armed with new insights. Many ideas get left behind. I have considered that Roose could have done it for tactical reasons- right away he spurs on the men to go to battle against Stannis - but the whole point of this thread is that there's much more to Roose's activities than simply military strategies - so that's always going to be a factor in any analysis right now.

If thats so is it possible that when he stops leeching his blood he somehow transforms and becomes more Ramseyish?Or white-like?

Ha if you take away speculation you might aswel not have a website.

As an aside Craster if he is a Stark relation seems to resemble the Karstark part of the family more then others if you go by their mens descriptions

[brashcandy]

If thats so is it possible that when he stops leeching his blood he somehow transforms and becomes more Ramseyish?Or white-like?

Yeah... perhaps. It could be why he's so careful about the leeching. I think his purpose is to become white-like though: emotionless/unfeeling - so that he'll be better able to carry out his plans. This is why I think he was behind Little Walder's death. We know nothing moves Roose, so his show of being concerned and raising his voice probably was all an act. Either he killed the boy himself or he had someone do it. But I'm betting on the former. Also he asks where the body was found. I wonder what the significance of that could be..

[Bran Vras]

Two little things:

I said that the maester situation was unclear at the Dreadfort. When maester Aemon asked for help in ASoS, he sent the same plea twice to every northern house, and once to every other house of the Seven Kingdoms. Here are the destinations for the north.

To the Umbers and the Boltons, to Castle Cerwyn and Torrhen’s Square, Karhold and Deepwood Motte, to Bear Island, Oldcastle, Widow’s Watch, White Harbor, Barrowton, and the Rills, to the mountain fastnesses of the Liddles, the Burleys, the Norreys, the Harclays, and the Wulls, the black birds brought their plea.

The Dreadfort is there (and Barrowton as well, even though its maester doesn't seem to be there anymore in ADwD.) (Little riddle: Who can find the missing destination?)

This list of northern houses incites me to ask: who was Roose's first wife?

She was undoubtly highborn. Not necessarily a northwoman. Since Domeric was a man grown when he died two years before the war. Roose's first wife died at least twenty years ago. It's not said whether Bethany was the mother of Domeric's brothers.

I don't see how Roose's first wife could have comme from a Northern Family from the above list, except perhaps one of the mountain clans. But the mountain clans don't seem to like the Boltons, and might not be highborn enough.

I have something not very imaginative to suggest: she was a Redfort. The reason for the fostering of Domeric at the Redfort was possibly valid also for a marriage alliance between Redfort and Dreadfort, and the fostering might have compensated for the untimely death of the first wife and the sons. The Redfort is far enough so that there is no connection with the current situation in the North, this is why no northman mentions the first wife.

(The current Lord Redfort has had three wives, all dead, if that is the clue to anything.)

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

However he did have Ramsey legitamized and even defends his attrocities slightly when talking to Robb and Catelyn

Going through the motions, perhaps - just as he did in pretending to serve Robb Stark - until he has Ramsay eliminated. Roose cannot kill Ramsay himself without the stigma of kinslaying, so it may take longer to arrange his death. Not that Roose is one to care about how he is perceived, but given how he has seized power he cannot really afford to make himself look worse.

[Eyron]

Missing: Greywater watch...

[Bran Vras]

Missing: Greywater watch...

True. I have forgotten the crannogmen. The destination I had in mind was the important Flint clan. I wonder if the "certain mountain clans" that practice the first night are the same than those who don't have a maester.

[Eyron]

I find it especially interesting that no birds were sent to Howland Reed, for some reason I thought that would be one of the first places to send ravens.

I think the reason could lie in them having a bit of a reputation, or that they have some other responsibility and can't be summoned to join in the defense of the Wall.

I think only the castles have maesters, not sure any of the clans do. Eddard use to go visit them himself at least.

[Lykos]

Could the fact, that Graywater Watch is moving be the reason that no ravens where sent ?

[Bran Vras]

Recall what Roose said:

The Umbers keep the first night too, deny it as they may. Certain of the mountain clans as well, and on Skagos ... well, only heart trees ever see half of what they do on Skagos.

There might be a correlation between not having a maester and practicing the first night. Maester Aemon's list does not include Skagos. There are hints that the Bolton's relationship with the maesters are not simple (no maester was present at the Dreadfort for the feast to honour the Karstarks, see also what Lady Dustin said). No maester is listed for the Umbers. I wonder if Whoresbane, who has been trained as a maester, is tending the ravens at Last Hearth.

Another piece of evidence of Roose's dislike for the maesters. When Roose took Harrenhal, here is one of the first thing he did (ACoK, Arya):

Do the ravens remember Maester Tothmure? Arya wondered. Are they sad for him? When they quork at him, do they wonder why he doesn’t answer? Perhaps the dead could speak to them in some secret tongue the living could not hear.

Tothmure had been sent to the axe for dispatching birds to Casterly Rock and King’s Landing the night Harrenhal had fallen, [...]

Maester Tothmure had served Lady Whent and then Tywin when he took hold of Harrenhal. Tywin didn't execute him when Harrenhal has fallen the time before. Why would maester Tothmure have betrayed the new lord instead of serving him? The maesters simply serve the new lord when a fortress is taken (see maester Luwin in ACoK). I suspect that Roose did not want a maester near him when he was in Harrenhal.

(That reopens the question of how the association with Qyburn came to be.)

[Bran Vras]

One more thing about Harrenhal. Here are the persons Roose executed at once:

Tothmure had been sent to the axe for dispatching birds to Casterly Rock and King’s Landing the night Harrenhal had fallen, Lucan the armorer for making weapons for the Lannisters, Goodwife Harra for telling Lady Whent’s household to serve them, the steward for giving Lord Tywin the keys to the treasure vault.

Of course, it is a message sent by Roose to his own men: they'd rather by loyal to him. But, I wonder what the treasure vault contained. I wonder whether the steward really gave the keys to Tywin and if it was a mean to silence him. The content of the treasure vault might be either with Roose or with the Lannisters in KIng's Landing (in the latter case, Qyburn has access to it). By beheading the maester and the steward, Roose killed the two persons who might have known about the book that he burnt later (besides Qyburn of course).

[Fragile Bird]

One more thing about Harrenhal. Here are the persons Roose executed at once:

Of course, it is a message sent by Roose to his own men: they'd rather by loyal to him. But, I wonder what the treasure vault contained. I wonder whether the steward really gave the keys to Tywin and if it was a mean to silence him. The content of the treasure vault might be either with Roose or with the Lannisters in KIng's Landing (in the latter case, Qyburn has access to it). By beheading the maester and the steward, Roose killed the two persons who might have known about the book that he burnt later (besides Qyburn of course).

Awesome point. I hope we get an answer sooner or later.

This thread really does point out how much pleasure you can get out of re-reads, IMHO.

[FanTasy]

Could the fact, that Graywater Watch is moving be the reason that no ravens where sent ?

Didn't Jojen or Meera say to Bran (have to check to be sure) that Greywater Watch can't be reached by raven? That's why Robb sent two people with a message on them.

[Eyron]

Lykos, FanTasy, you are probably right! I forgot that part :)

[Kaylee]

Could the fact, that Graywater Watch is moving be the reason that no ravens where sent ?

Is the Greywater Watch really moving? People in Westeros don't even believe in magic any more, things like flying knights, the Others or disappearing castles are legends, not reality. And the Reeds are very real. So I would say that it is hard to find, perhaps protected by some old spells, but not really moving, as the Reeds say.

By the way, it is possible to send a raven to Greywater Watch:

He was curious about these mudmen. He could not recall ever seeing one before. His father had sent letters to the Lord of Greywater over the years, but none of the crannogmen had ever called at Winterfell.

Recall what Roose said:

There might be a correlation between not having a maester and practicing the first night. Maester Aemon's list does not include Skagos. There are hints that the Bolton's relationship with the maesters are not simple (no maester was present at the Dreadfort for the feast to honour the Karstarks, see also what Lady Dustin said). No maester is listed for the Umbers. I wonder if Whoresbane, who has been trained as a maester, is tending the ravens at Last Hearth.

Very good point about the Umbers.

The first night is an old law, and apparently mostly forgotten. It would seem that the oldest and most traditional families don't trust maesters as much as the rest. Or simply don't trust them at all.

One more thing about Harrenhal. Here are the persons Roose executed at once:

Of course, it is a message sent by Roose to his own men: they'd rather by loyal to him. But, I wonder what the treasure vault contained. I wonder whether the steward really gave the keys to Tywin and if it was a mean to silence him. The content of the treasure vault might be either with Roose or with the Lannisters in KIng's Landing (in the latter case, Qyburn has access to it). By beheading the maester and the steward, Roose killed the two persons who might have known about the book that he burnt later (besides Qyburn of course).

It sounds good, but what could be so valuable in the treasure vault of Harrenhal? I would expect some great mystery in the vault of Winterfell, or any other old castle that has been in possession of one family for generations. But what could Roose find in Harrenhal?