Three theories on Roose Bolton (The fate of Domeric, Last day in Harrenhal, Lady Dustin)

[Kaylee]

Didn't Jojen or Meera say to Bran (have to check to be sure) that Greywater Watch can't be reached by raven? That's why Robb sent two people with a message on them.

Ok, it seems I am wrong. Where is it?

[Bran Vras]

It sounds good, but what could be so valuable in the treasure vault of Harrenhal? I would expect some great mystery in the vault of Winterfell, or any other old castle that has been in possession of one family for generations. But what could Roose find in Harrenhal?

We have so little to speculate. In decreasing order of probability: It could have been the book. There might have been an entrance to crypts like those in Winterfell (there is a weirwood in Harrenhal). It could be something related to the strange habits of Lady Lothston (bath in blood). The building of Harrenhal is mysterious (see second theory). It could be something about house Whent (the current Stark children have a Whent Grandmother.)

Little remark: the bat figured on the banners of the Whents and Lothstons (and perhaps other previous lords of Harrenhal as well). A noted blood sucker, just like leeches.

[Eyron]

It's interesting that there is a godswood in Harrenhall, and especially a weirwood. Harren was ironborn so why did he keep a godswood, and why did he let the weirwood be?

Also interesting is that the godswood in Harrenhall did not burn when the dragons came and torched him and his family. Just like Winterfells godswood did not burn during the sack.

A little OT perhaps, but worth a thought I think.

[Lady of Long Lake]

If they are half-Starks then it might explain the need for such parodic imitation - flaunting their similarity yet essential difference.

Who says this in the books- about Boltons having Stark blood in their family blood lines?

[Bran Vras]

It's interesting that there is a godswood in Harrenhall, and especially a weirwood. Harren was ironborn so why did he keep a godswood, and why did he let the weirwood be?

Also interesting is that the godswood in Harrenhall did not burn when the dragons came and torched him and his family. Just like Winterfells godswood did not burn during the sack.

There is something in Harrenhal which reminds me of the North. Compare Old Nan's story

She remembered Old Nan’s stories of the castle built on fear. Harren the Black had mixed human blood in the mortar, Nan used to say,

to Jon Snow

“The Night’s Watch built those castles ...”

[...]

“... to defend the Wall,” Jon finished stubbornly, “not as seats for southron lords. The stones of those forts are mortared with the blood and bones of my brothers, long dead. I cannot give them to you.”

Since the brother of Harren was Lord Commander of the Watch, Harren must have been careful with the traditions of the North.

Here is another thought that occurred to me. Let's return once more to Roose's tale

The woman disobeyed me, though. You see what Ramsay is. She made him, her and Reek, always whispering in his ear about his rights.

Roose speaks about the rights of Ramsay. Since Ramsay is just a bastard, these rights derive from other laws than those of the Seven Kingdoms (I guess the marriage of Roose and the miller's wife was valid according to the laws of the wildlings.) Also, it seems Reek wasn't a dimwit. I made the case that Reek had the same manner of speech than Craster, and was possibly a wildling.

I am currently trying to have a second look at Mance Rayder (a thread will appear soon). In the Melisandre chapter, Mance says (still posing as Rattleshirt, but he says the truth, I believe)

[Melisandre]“I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on and on forever.”

“Long Lake. What else did you see around this girl?”

“Hills. Fields. Trees. A deer, once. Stones. She is staying well away from villages. When she can she rides along the bed of little streams, to throw hunters off her trail.”

He frowned. “That will make it difficult. She was coming north, you said. Was the lake to her east or to her west?”

Melisandre closed her eyes, remembering. “West.”

“She is not coming up the kingsroad, then. Clever girl. There are fewer watchers on the other side, and more cover. And some hidey-holes I have used myself from time—”

Mance little trip along Long Lake was on the Eastern side. Judging by the map, the nearest interesting destinations for those who follow Long Lake on the Eastern side are Winterfell and the Dreadfort. Winterfell is unlikely since Mance said he has been twice to Winterfell, once as a man of the Night's Watch and once as an itinerant bard, but the second time Mance bought a horse and hurried along the King's Road (see ASoS). So it's more likely that Mance went to the Dreadfort area. It's unlikely that Roose and Mance have met, otherwise Roose would have recognized Abel the Bard (there is the possibility that Mance was subject to glamour). So, this convoluted reasoning leads me to the source of the Weepwater and makes me think that perhaps Mance knew the miller's wife. In any case, Mance's tale informs us that it was possible that wildlings from beyond the Wall reached that area.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Ok, it seems I am wrong. Where is it?

Kaylee,

I think you are both right :) If I remember correctly, it says both things- that ravens can't be sent to GW and also says that Ned did send letters to GW.

Perhaps Ned had letters hand delivered to the edge of the swamp. I remember when Robb sent Maege, Mallister and Glover to GreyWater with his Last Will, they asked him how to find it. Robb told them @ " Don't worry about needing directions. Just enter the swamp and they'll know you are there and come to you".

Or Ned could have flown Reed's letters to Lord Manderly's castle and then had him deliver the message. He's a lot closer to GW than Winterfell is.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Warning crackpot appreciation post so don't read if that's not your style. :) I love the thread Bran Vras! I also love some of the ideas from the posters and I had the same ideas from reading the thread. I like the crackpot ideas like...

That Roose may be leeching himself to get rid of the red hot blood...And that he could be using blood magic to stay young... House Bolton could be an offshoot of the Night's King and his Other Queen children. If the NK was a Stark then Starks would be related to the Boltons. I have wonder why House Stark never wiped out House Bolton after thousands of years of rebellion that was not the normal kind, like wearing the skins of Starks, so if they might be related this could be why. I know it's not normal to wipe out houses like Tywin did but the Boltons are something very different and would warrent such action.

All the talk about calling the babie's monsters stood out to me as well. It reminded me of Old Nan's story about woman laying with Others to sire terrible half-human children, which someone posted...So I wondered if Roose might be like this then could the miller's wife could too, and the fact of baby Ramesy's eyes told Roose all he needed to know. This could be why the miller's wife was so attractive to Roose...I like the idea being insinuated the the miller's wife could be one of Craster's daughters/wifes. She could have escaped and the desription of Ramsey could be similar to Craster. So if Roose is half human half Other and the miller's wife is similar that would be very interesting.

Another thing about Harrenhal is weirwoods were cut down for the rafters and beams so blood and weirwoods were used to make HH. I have always wondered why they made a godswood at all, with it being such a young castle in the Riverlands, like only three or four hundred years old (right?), and built by an Ironborn.

After reading the thread I have started to wonder if the Bolton's really can skinchange. Maybe they are not wargs meaning they don't use wolves like the Starks. They may only want to skinchange to control humans and do not care about the animals so that could be why they have a flayed man as their sigil...we take your skin. This could have led to the animosity with House Stark. House Bolton's words are "Our blades are sharp" which could mean their minds are sharp, I don't think they would tell everyone if they do skinchange humans....the more common saying for their house words are "A flayed man holds no secrets" which is probably very true but the same could be said for a man who was warged...A warged man holds no secrets. (Ramesy and his dogs raise some red flags maybe)

I'm probably reading too much into things but it sure has been fun and that's why I love threads, and posters, like this one. I do have a few questions that I want to think about more but I might as well see what ideas all of you have. 1) Why would Domeric be fosterd at the Vale and how common is it to be fostered outside of your region? (not an overlord house) 2) Does anyone else get the impression that Roose seems all most fond of the first Reek from his stories of him before he was sent to Ramsey? 3) What happened to Maester Uthor and who was he?

[Eyron]

There is something in Harrenhal which reminds me of the North.

...

Since the brother of Harren was Lord Commander of the Watch, Harren must have been careful with the traditions of the North.

Another thing about Harrenhal is weirwoods were cut down for the rafters and beams so blood and weirwoods were used to make HH. I have always wondered why they made a godswood at all, with it being such a young castle in the Riverlands, like only three or four hundred years old (right?), and built by an Ironborn.

This is exactly what is bothering me, it does not add up, but is plain to see. Harren built Harrenhall with northern old magic it seems, very atypical for Ironmen I would guess, and he kept a godswood (likely he built at the site of an old sacred forest, the tree Arya was climbing in was not a small one), something ironmen would never do. But, he also cut down huge weirwoods for beams, which seems like it would anger the old gods, the children. It's just weird to me.

I'm probably reading too much into things but it sure has been fun and that's why I love threads, and posters, like this one. I do have a few questions that I want to think about more but I might as well see what ideas all of you have. 1) Why would Domeric be fosterd at the Vale and how common is it to be fostered outside of your region? (not an overlord house) 2) Does anyone else get the impression that Roose seems all most fond of the first Reek from his stories of him before he was sent to Ramsey? 3) What happened to Maester Uthor and who was he?

You have probably noted already but, the Nightfort, the Dreadfort and the Redfort? I don't know if there is anything to that (and there are some more castles and keeps called forts), but it's interesting how names can point to underlying themes sometimes, not necessarily this time though.

2) I also had the feeling that Roose was fond of Reek somehow, or that he respected him or something like it. He was strong and healthy, just also smelly, in Roose's eyes.

[Lummel]

Harren the black wasn't a greyjoy. The greyjoys seem to be the ultra conservatives on the iron islands, other iron born families seem to be more open to influence from the green lands.

Also if harrenhall was to cement his hold on the eastern riverlands then it was probably good politics to show his vassals that he wasn't some kraken chomping alien but was one of them and honoured their traditions.

There is also a history of using weirwood - The Ned's bed in winterfell is made of weirwood. I imagine only weirwoods without faces are felled though.

[brashcandy]

2) I also had the feeling that Roose was fond of Reek somehow, or that he respected him or something like it. He was strong and healthy, just also smelly, in Roose's eyes.

Eira,

I got the feeling that it wasn't so much fondness as it was fascination on Roose's part. It could be that Reek's foulness is what started Roose's investigation or study into blood magic. And he perhaps sent the boy to live with his bastard for a reason other than mere amusement.

[Eyron]

Harren the black wasn't a greyjoy. The greyjoys seem to be the ultra conservatives on the iron islands, other iron born families seem to be more open to influence from the green lands.

Ah right, I tend to think of the ironborn as the same, but of course it was not always so.

Also if harrenhall was to cement his hold on the eastern riverlands then it was probably good politics to show his vassals that he wasn't some kraken chomping alien but was one of them and honoured their traditions.

Yes this is probably a better explanation :)

There is also a history of using weirwood - The Ned's bed in winterfell is made of weirwood. I imagine only weirwoods without faces are felled though.

This is odd to me since the trees are their gods (sort of), but I knew from a few other instances that they used weirwood for furniture and gates, but those were not made by First men as far as I know. I didn't remember that Ned had a weirwood bed though... Maybe he got it as a present from southron friends ;)

[Eyron]

Eira,

I got the feeling that it wasn't so much fondness as it was fascination on Roose's part. It could be that Reek's foulness is what started Roose's investigation or study into blood magic. And he perhaps sent the boy to live with his bastard for a reason other than mere amusement.

Right, Roose probably can't feel fondness at all really. Fascination is a better word!

I am probably trying to make Roose more human in my head, and attach sentiments to him, where a normal person would have some I guess.

[Bran Vras]

That Roose may be leeching himself to get rid of the red hot blood...And that he could be using blood magic to stay young... House Bolton could be an offshoot of the Night's King and his Other Queen children. If the NK was a Stark then Starks would be related to the Boltons. I have wonder why House Stark never wiped out House Bolton after thousands of years of rebellion that was not the normal kind, like wearing the skins of Starks, so if they might be related this could be why. I know it's not normal to wipe out houses like Tywin did but the Boltons are something very different and would warrent such action.

Well the Boltons do not cause trouble all the time. For instance, Jon says that his father had no cause to complain about Roose Bolton. Lummel just reminded us of Roose's private motto.

I'm probably reading too much into things but it sure has been fun and that's why I love threads, and posters, like this one. I do have a few questions that I want to think about more but I might as well see what ideas all of you have. 1) Why would Domeric be fosterd at the Vale and how common is it to be fostered outside of your region? (not an overlord house) 2) Does anyone else get the impression that Roose seems all most fond of the first Reek from his stories of him before he was sent to Ramsey? 3) What happened to Maester Uthor and who was he?

This is exactly what is bothering me, it does not add up, but is plain to see. Harren built Harrenhall with northern old magic it seems, very atypical for Ironmen I would guess, and he kept a godswood (likely he built at the site of an old sacred forest, the tree Arya was climbing in was not a small one), something ironmen would never do. But, he also cut down huge weirwoods for beams, which seems like it would anger the old gods, the children. It's just weird to me.

You have probably noted already but, the Nightfort, the Dreadfort and the Redfort? I don't know if there is anything to that (and there are some more castles and keeps called forts), but it's interesting how names can point to underlying themes sometimes, not necessarily this time though.

2) I also had the feeling that Roose was fond of Reek somehow, or that he respected him or something like it. He was strong and healthy, just also smelly, in Roose's eyes.

About the Redfort/Dreadfort connection, could you tell us more about other castles named --fort, Eira? Off the top of my mind, I can't find any. It's possible that the Redforts and the Boltons became friends during Robert's Rebellion. We know that Roose was at the battle of the Trident (*). The Redfort were well-known to Robert and Ned.

No idea about maester Uthor. Uthor is not a northern name. Roose speaks of him in the present tense. I guess that after the execution of the Harrenhal maester, Roose must be hated at the Citadel, and nobody wants to be sent at the Dreadfort. (I imagine there is much solidarity in the corporation of maesters.)

(*) I mentioned upthread that both Ramsay and Craster were proponents of killing in cold blood wounded people. Roose advocated the same thing for Barristan at the battle of the Trident (but Robert sent his maester and Barristan was saved). Definitely a pattern there.

[Eyron]

I remembered wrong I think, there is one more.

There is the Dun fort, at Duskendale (of all places heh) seat of House Rykker.

ETA: Uthor ends with -or, like Sandor and Gregor.

[Elaena Targaryen]

@Bran Vras about the Boltons rebelling against the Starks I was refering to the past before they accepted Stark as their overlord...was it one hundred years ago or one thousand, I can never remember?

In general on Maester Uthor I was reminded of something....The Unmasking of Uthero...it's so close. Here is the reference and I can not find anything else...Arya at the House of Black and White the Kindly Man starts to tell her the story of their founding..."...we are older than the secret city. Before the the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero, before the Founding, we were." Also there is a Umma that is a cook at the temple. Could it be a name from Essos or even Braavos? If it is then would that even matter?

[Bran Vras]

I read that the Boltons bent the knee a thousand years ago. There was an important rebellion three hundred years ago (see Davos' chapter in ADwD). It might have been related to the end of the Kingdom of the North. Perhaps the Boltons didn't accept to be part of the Seven Kingdoms then. They wanted to keep their first night etc.

The names Luthor and Guthor are from the Reach, and there is a Uthor in the Vale. I'd like to know more about the maester as well.

[Lykos]

Is the Greywater Watch really moving? People in Westeros don't even believe in magic any more, things like flying knights, the Others or disappearing castles are legends, not reality. And the Reeds are very real. So I would say that it is hard to find, perhaps protected by some old spells, but not really moving, as the Reeds say.

<snip>

This is interesting, can you tell me where the Reeds say this, still in Winterfell to Bran I guess. There has been speculation that Braavos was hidden by the same magic from the Valyrians. I want to know all about it.

[brashcandy]

Ok, have we talked about the strange lack of fertile women in the Whent family? In looking through the appendix on the Freys I found mention of Wynafrei Whent, married to Ser Danwell Frey. It says there - [many stillbirths and miscarriages] Going to the wiki, the point is made clear:

The Whent House at the end of the third century

The known Whents during the timespan of the events described on A Song of Ice and Fire are:

• Lady Shella Whent, wife of the unnamed Lord Whent who hosted the tournament in 281 AL. It is not known from which house she was before her marriage. She is an old woman without heirs.
  

Previous members:

• {Lord Whent}, the previous lord of the house, who was rich and open-handed, and hosted the tournament were Rhaegar and Lyanna met
  
  • {His children}, four sons and a daughter.
    

  [*]{Ser Oswell Whent}, brother of Lord Whent and a member of Aerys's Kingsguard. Known for his black humor, he died at the Tower of Joy.

• {Minisa Whent}, Deceased wife of Lord Hoster Tully and mother to Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure.
  

• Wynafrei Whent, married to the ninth son of Lord Walder Frey, Danwell. With no progeny. Many stillbirths and miscarriages.
  

• {Sarya Whent}, fifth wife of Lord Walder Frey. Deceased with no progeny.
  

Of Lady Shella Whent, wife of the unnamed Lord Whent, is said that she is without heirs. Therefore is must be assumed that all of Lord Whent's progeny died before the start of the books.

It is remarkable the apparent poor fertility of the Whent women. Wynafrei and Sarya were both childless. Only Minisa and her line has proved fertile, although she died in childbed.

Now given all we've noted about Harrenhal, and Roose's strange activities there, is it possible that there's some curse on the castle that is preventing the women from having children, or causing the children to die early? (Cat's mother Minisa being the notable exception) Did Roose learn something about this curse from the book he later burned in Harrenhal. And is this why Roose is now trying to undermine his wife's fertility by claiming that Ramsay will murder all his heirs, when in truth and fact, Roose is the one who will be getting rid of those children for some reason?

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

We dont have any true evidence as far as i remember of roose performing magic using the leeches as Mel did.I would say hes uses the leeched blood to not only thin his own blood and the madness he holds at bay which Ramsey doesnt but also possibly to use as a type of transfusion later to preserve his own youth?Theres theories that Qyburn was using all the women Cersei gave him to cure Gregor or keep him alive.Might not Roose be able to do something like that with his own blood?

Possibly the leeches could help but every so often he needs a larger dose, hence the dead children? Perhaps the first child died naturally and he experimented on/let Qyburn experiment on the corpse. Before long he was hooked and killing his new borns for himself. Like a smack addiction.

I think his behaviour will be interesting around the time of the birth of his next child and its untimely death. Does he get a sudden burst of energy? Does his appearence change? Does he feel remorseful? Does he punnish Ramsey?

[Lummel]

This is interesting, can you tell me where the Reeds say this, still in Winterfell to Bran I guess. There has been speculation that Braavos was hidden by the same magic from the Valyrians. I want to know all about it.

ACOK - they are discussing ravens and it turns out that you can't send a raven to greywater watch because it moves. I had imagined that the watch was some kind of floating platform or a collection of boats in a marshy landscape rather than this being something magical but :dunno: who can say?