Three theories on Roose Bolton (The fate of Domeric, Last day in Harrenhal, Lady Dustin)

[Lykos]

@Lummel

Yes, that was my idea that the ravens couldn´t find GW and Fantasy confirmed that. Kaylee brought in the magic Idea and I sort of misread the post, thinking there was magic actually mentioned in the books by the Reeds. That got me all excited because I have the theory that Braavos was hidden from the Valyrians by the Childrens magic.

[Bran Vras]

The particular (absence of) colour in the eyes of Roose and Ramsay already showed up in the eyes of a...Stark. (ADwD, Davos)

“Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes

(The colour of the eyes of Roose and Ramsay is several times compared to dirty ice.) Perhaps Edrick Snowbeard, his son, or grandson had a woman alike Ramsay's mother for a wife.

[Bran Vras]

Here is something weird I noticed about Ramsay's "amusements". This is when Ramsay reveals himself to Theon in ACoK and tells how he was caught with Reek and a girl they were hunting.

“The girl’s fault. If she had not run so far, his horse would not have lamed, and we might have been able to flee. I gave him mine when I saw the riders from the ridge. I was done with her by then, and he liked to take his turn while they were still warm. I had to pull him off her and shove my clothes into his hands—calfskin boots and velvet doublet, silver- chased swordbelt, even my sable cloak. Ride for the Dreadfort, I told him, bring all the help you can. Take my horse, he’s swifter, and here, wear the ring my father gave me, so they’ll know you came from me. He’d learned better than to question me. By the time they put that arrow through his back, I’d smeared myself with the girl’s filth and dressed in his rags. They might have hanged me anyway, but it was the only chance I saw.”

It's barely believable that Ramsay put such fine clothes for a chase in the woods. Isn't it a sign that Ramsay was not simply obeying his sadistic urges, but performing a ritual, or something else important? He seems to be wearing clothes worthy of a wedding...

(Note the lame horse, like in Roose's story.)

There are other accounts of Ramsay's habits (including one by Manderly, and another by Theon). It seems to have been something precisely organized: The victim had the whole night to flee, the chase would begin at sunrise with the sound of a horn. But in the other accounts, there was no description of the clothes. Theon's tale mentions again the Weepwater (along which Domeric rode to find Ramsay, and along which the miller's wife lived).

[Kaylee]

This is interesting, can you tell me where the Reeds say this, still in Winterfell to Bran I guess. There has been speculation that Braavos was hidden by the same magic from the Valyrians. I want to know all about it.

ACOK - they are discussing ravens and it turns out that you can't send a raven to greywater watch because it moves. I had imagined that the watch was some kind of floating platform or a collection of boats in a marshy landscape rather than this being something magical but :dunno: who can say?

This is ACOK, but it is said a few more times. In one of Bran's chapters Meera says:

"My father taught me. We have no knights at Greywater. No masters-at-arms, and no maesters."

"Who keeps your ravens?"

She smiled. "Ravens can't find Greywater Watch, no more than our enemies can."

"Why not?"

"Because it moves," she told him.

Bran had never heard of a moving castle before

And in a Theon's chapter, when Bran and Rickon disappear:

"We won't find them," the Frey boy said suddenly. "Not so long as the frogeaters are with them. Mudmen are sneaks, they won't fight like decent folks, they skulk and use poison arrows. You never see them, but they see you. Those who go into the bogs after them get lost and never come out. Their houses move, even the castles like Greywater Watch."

and Maester Luwin answers:

"The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck. It may be that they have secret knowledge."

So the castle and magic are mentioned, but I don't know how much of it is just a story. Maester Luwin says it is magic but at this moment he has very good reason to lie. And now I think you may be right, Lummel, at least to some point. Bran and Walder are sure Greywater Watch is a castle, but Meera never says it. And it seems that nobody except the Reeds has ever seen it. Maybe there is no castle there, or any permanent settlement.

I don't think floating platforms would work in this climate though. Maybe in summer, but not in winter.

Apparently nobody, except the Reeds themselves, knows how to find Greywater. Even Robb, who is their liege lord and supposedly their friend. It is not exactly normal, is it? OTOH, the marshes in the neck are vast and there is probably a very simple reason why ravens cannot find it: there is no maester there. We know that ravens must be trained to fly to their destinations and if there is no maester, nobody trains birds to get there.

By the way... It seems that many northern families are suspicious or even hostile towards maesters, and probably many have secrets, but the Reeds are paranoid. What are they so afraid of?

[Kaylee]

Here is something weird I noticed about Ramsay's "amusements". This is when Ramsay reveals himself to Theon in ACoK and tells how he was caught with Reek and a girl they were hunting. It's barely believable that Ramsay put such fine clothes for a chase in the woods. Isn't it a sign that Ramsay was not simply obeying his sadistic urges, but performing a ritual, or something else important? He seems to be wearing clothes worthy of a wedding...

Maybe he just likes to play a lord when his father is away? At this time he was just a bastard, and we know he is vain...

(Note the lame horse, like in Roose's story.)

Yes, apparently lame horses explain everything. :)

There are other accounts of Ramsay's habits (including one by Manderly, and another by Theon). It seems to have been something precisely organized: The victim had the whole night to flee, the chase would begin at sunrise with the sound of a horn. But in the other accounts, there was no description of the clothes. Theon's tale mentions again the Weepwater (along which Domeric rode to find Ramsay, and along which the miller's wife lived).

Back to Domeric: in lady Hornwood's tale, Roose brought Ramsay to Dreadfort after Domeric's death and because of it. Roose claims it was Domeric who found Ramsay and he never wanted to have anything to do with his bastard... He did not even acknowledge him, he accused him of murder of his own brother (the better brother, if we believe Roose) and then he left him in charge of Dreadfort when he went to war. Does it make any sense? No.

I wonder what story the miller's wife would tell. And if she is still alive.

[Clueless Northman]

By the way... It seems that many northern families are suspicious or even hostile towards maesters, and probably many have secrets, but the Reeds are paranoid. What are they so afraid of?

I suppose the Citadel sided with the Andals when they came - unless it's even one of their creations. Whatever, they don't worship the Old Gods and seem closer to the Seven.

Now, based on various hypotheses made in the 12 pages of this thread, time to put 2 and 3 and see if we can get 7.

Time for utter crackpottery.

Roose to Theon: "Your stench is quite appalling. The way you smell is my son's doing, not your own. I am well aware of that."

Been there, done that?

"I knew the first Reek. He stank, though not for want of washing. I have never known a cleaner creature, truth be told. He bathed thrice a day and wore flowers in his hair as if he were a maiden. Once, when my second wife was still alive, he was caught stealing scent from her bedchamber. I had him whipped for that, a dozen lashes."

If we stop here, we can wonder if Reek's "stink" wasn't merely abuse of various perfumes. After all, Roose is quite clear that he whipped him because he stole scent.

Next, he alleges that Reek stank actually badly.

"The smell was something he was born with. A curse, the smallfolk said. The gods had made him stink so that men would know his soul was rotting."

Now, let's go into full crackpot and assume that Roose lies. Reek didn't stank badly, he had some, let's say, effeminate tastes for scent, that pissed off Rose to no end. And that common folk didn't like either. Something they would assume, he was "born with", and Roose was annoyed with.

Now, let's consider another of Ramsay's former buddies:

"Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind."

Of course, Rhaegar also had these qualities, so that doesn't mean they're purely "effeminate" in Westeros. (unless of course one would assume that Jon Connington's feelings weren't totally unrequited, but Rhaegar was a dutiful heir and thoughtful of his role as the dad of the Prince that was promised)

To try to correct these flaws, Roose sends him away as page, then squire.

"Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists."

Like, for instance, some young knight with a very flowery armor.

"Domeric had enjoyed the company of Redfort's sons. He wanted a brother by his side"

Obviously, his natural tendencies didn't disappear when he came back home, to Roose's displeasure.

Roose says he forbade Domeric to go see Ramsay. On the other hand, he also says he sent him Reek.

"It was meant to be amusing, but he and Ramsay became inseparable."

So, if we follow the previous clues, it's probable that Roose ordered him there, or tricked him to go there by forbidding it (still undecided, I think). Probably in the hope that Ramsay's wild and sadistic nature could make a manly man of his son.

Well...

"Was it Ramsay who corrupted Reek, or Reek Ramsay?"

Probably a rhetorical question.

Ramsay was as prejudiced as Roose, but not as quiet, patient and kind with his kin.

By referring to Theon's fate and what we were told of Reek, one can deduce that Domereek's taste for perfume was perverted and punished by filth and rags.

We can also hypothesize that his appreciation for men was punished by gelding - which would show that it wasn't only merely erratic and sadistic behaviour towards Theon, but also turning him as close as possible into the original Reek.

Sure, we know Reek shared Ramsay's ladies once he was done with them, but when you're perverted that much and when you've been tortured that much, your first leanings don't matter much. And if Ramsay told Theon in ACOK that he was dealing with Ramsay's last dead girl, it doesn't even invalidate that part, because Theon is also ordered by Ramsay to "make ready" the fake Arya at the wedding night.

The main detail that looks odd is that Reek is said to have never been trained at arms, and he trained Ramsay (with a bad and savage style). Either this is wrong, or Reek simply couldn't fight as a true knight because he missed a few fingers and the like and had to rely on unelaborated moves.

Last but not least, we can even see that Roose isn't totally lying when he accuses Ramsay of Domeric's death, since it's Ramsay who sent him away as a decoy, fully knowing he would be killed on sight.

That's all for now.

This is how you do crackpot. At a stage when you don't know if you can seriously consider what you just said, but still have put enough stuff together that you can't rule it out just like that ;)

[Lykos]

I suppose the Citadel sided with the Andals when they came - unless it's even one of their creations. Whatever, they don't worship the Old Gods and seem closer to the Seven.

I think the Citadel was founded after the arrival of the Andals. Are there Maesters mentioned before that? And I think the Maesters will keep the faith they had when joining, so yes, most will worship the Seven.

Roose says he forbade Domeric to go see Ramsay. On the other hand, he also says he sent him Reek.

So you think the story of Domeric being poisoned by Ramsay, is a lie of Roose?

[Lady of Long Lake]

I think the Citadel was founded after the arrival of the Andals. Are there Maesters mentioned before that? And I think the Maesters will keep the faith they had when joining, so yes, most will worship the Seven.

I can't find out how old the Citadel is. They have some of the oldest buildings in Westeros- dating back to the Dawn Age- so we are talking 12,000 year old buildings. But maybe the Citadel started using those buildings after their inception?

[Lykos]

@silkakc

The wiki says the oldest building was from the age of Heroes and seat of a pirate lord at that time. But the wiki is often wrong/not up to date in little details like this. Also the timeline gets more imprecise the further it goes back. Do you have a quote from the books?

[Fire Eater]

@silkakc

The wiki says the oldest building was from the age of Heroes and seat of a pirate lord at that time. But the wiki is often wrong/not up to date in little details like this. Also the timeline gets more imprecise the further it goes back. Do you have a quote from the books?

AFfC Sam last chapter

"The Ravenry is the oldest building at the Citadel," Alleras told him, as they crossed over the slow-flowing rivers. "In the Age of Heroes it was supposedly the stronghold of a pirate lord who sat here robbing ships as they came down across the river."

[Ramsay Gimp]

Can I ask, from a narrative perspective, what the point of revealing Roose to be a centuries-old vampire-other would be? at this point, to normal readers (who don't peruse forums liek this) it would just seem weird and kind of out-of-the-blue

[Kaylee]

I think the Citadel was founded after the arrival of the Andals. Are there Maesters mentioned before that? And I think the Maesters will keep the faith they had when joining, so yes, most will worship the Seven.

Funny, I don't remember maesters mentioned anywhere. They write history but don't take part in it. At least officially.

Wait, who advised Aegon the Conqueror to convert to the Faith?

So you think the story of Domeric being poisoned by Ramsay, is a lie of Roose?

I think this part is true. Roose let it happen.

[Bran Vras]

Can I ask, from a narrative perspective, what the point of revealing Roose to be a centuries-old vampire-other would be? at this point, to normal readers (who don't peruse forums liek this) it would just seem weird and kind of out-of-the-blue

It doesn't quite answer your question. Roose knows that his situation is difficult. Even before sending the invitations for the wedding he tells Ramsay

“There are times you make me wonder if you truly are my seed. My fore-bears were many things, but never fools. No, be quiet now, I have heard enough. We appear strong for the moment, yes. We have powerful friends in the Lannisters and Freys, and the grudging support of much of the north ... but what do you imagine is going to happen when one of Ned Stark’s sons turns up?”

[...]Lord Stannis has taken Deepwood Motte from the ironmen and restored it to House Glover. Worse, the mountain clans have joined him, Wull and Norrey and Liddle and the rest. His strength is growing.”

and Theon

“He should be. Fear is what keeps a man alive in this world of treachery and deceit. Even here in Barrowton the crows are circling, waiting to feast upon our flesh. The Cerwyns and the Tallharts are not to be relied on, my fat friend Lord Wyman plots betrayal, and Whoresbane ... the Umbers may seem simple, but they are not without a certain low cunning. Ramsay should fear them all, as I do. The next time you see him, tell him that.”

Here is his ally Lady Dustin

“Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North? Tywin Lannister is dead, the Kingslayer is maimed, the Imp is fled. The Lannisters are a spent force, and you were kind enough to rid him of the Starks. Old Walder Frey will not object to his fat little Walda becoming a queen. White Harbor might prove troublesome should Lord Wyman survive this coming battle ... but I am quite sure that he will not. No more than Stannis. Roose will remove both of them, as he removed the Young Wolf. Who else is there?”

But Roose knows what he is doing by going to Winterfell (like every smart character with a good understanding of his situation does in these books). So, without even speaking of sorcery, the reader should to be aware that something Roose has prepared something.

[Bran Vras]

One more tidbit about the familiarity between Ramsay and Craster. In ACoK, here is Craster about Mance's envoy:

I sent the man back, but kept his tongue. It’s nailed to that wall there.

Here is Ramsay to Theon during the bedding in Winterfell:

I will cut off that tongue of yours and nail it to the wall.

Is there any other occurrence of the practice of nailing a tongue to the wall?

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Can I ask, from a narrative perspective, what the point of revealing Roose to be a centuries-old vampire-other would be? at this point, to normal readers (who don't peruse forums liek this) it would just seem weird and kind of out-of-the-blue

In terms of the story it would tie the game of thrones arc in with the fight against The Others so rather than this being about 2 different stories it all ties in as one. The main adversary against the Starks in the game of thrones is also a main adversary in the fight against The Others. Being able to tie up 2 storylines like this would also probably cut the length of the story (and allow him to finish in 2 books!).

[brashcandy]

In terms of the story it would tie the game of thrones arc in with the fight against The Others so rather than this being about 2 different stories it all ties in as one. The main adversary against the Starks in the game of thrones is also a main adversary in the fight against The Others. Being able to tie up 2 storylines like this would also probably cut the length of the story (and allow him to finish in 2 books!).

Yes, and as a poster noted up thread, all that's missing from the werewolves/zombies mix is the vampire. When we consider Roose's penchant for leeching, his smooth unblemished skin and youthful appearance, his apparent indifference to his heirs being killed, and the Lady Dustin's description of him as being emotionless, and viewing people as playthings, it really does paint a provocative picture of Roose as being fundamentally different from others in this society.

Added to all this is the strange history of Harrenhal, with the murderous Lothstons and the unfortunate Whent women who experience multiple miscarriages and stillborns. Roose was reading a book in Harrenhal that he later burnt. Now it's one thing to burn a letter, but burning a book indicates the attempt to conceal an entire topic of some sort. I'm going to go out on a limb and posit that the book had to do with vampirism in some form.

[Bran Vras]

In short, this long post will be about 1) Reek is a wildling from Whitetree and 2) Some observations and many questions about Whitetree.

First, let's return to the "monster" appellation, that Brashcandy has singled out upthread. There is a significant occurence of the m-word from the mouth of a wildling. Here is Ygritte.

A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”

A confirmation that the word has a strong meaning for the wildlings. It seems to designate the worst that can come out of incest, and perhaps cursed children in general. So it's compatible with the name given by Val. How is it that Craster calls himself a godly man if incest offends the gods?

Let' continue with Ygritte:

“Craster’s more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t’ his Wall. She went t’ Castle Black once t’ show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster’s blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse.”

So Craster has probably been raised in Whitetree by his mother. Here is a sample of Craster's speech.

“Had no good southron wine up here for a bear’s night. I could use me some wine, and a new axe. Mine’s lost its bite, can’t have that, I got me women to protect.”

Other wildlings do not speak in the same manner. They don't say "me" for "my". Not Tormund, not Ygritte, certainly not Val or Mance, and not even Gilly. Usually children usually learn to speak with their mother. Gilly learnt probably learnt with her own mother and not with her father.

I have mentioned already that, when Ramsay impersonates Reek in a ACoK, he speaks in the same manner than Craster and says:

Haven’t fucked no one since they took me, m’lord. Heke’s me true name. I was in service to the Bastard o’ the Dreadfort till the Starks give him an arrow in the back for a wedding gift.”

This is why I suppose the first Reek came from Whitetree, or at least his mother did. Since Ramsay's mother behaved like Craster's mother, she might have come to the Dreadfort area with the same group of wildlings. About Reek's origin, here is again Ramsay impersonating Reek:

“I was born up north here. I know many a man, and many a man knows Reek.”

The first sentence is probably true. There might be some meaning to the second sentence.

Let's look at Whitetree (ACoK)

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam’s old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep’s skull in the ashes.

It's suggested, but never said, that it is a human skull. There is another smaller skull in the tree.

The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire. Beneath the skull he saw another, smaller, the jaw broken off.

I am not sure what sense I should make of this. Apparently, an adult and a child have been burnt inside the tree. The rangers of the Night's Watch presume that the wildlings have burnt their dead. But why burn them in a tree? Is there a sense to make of the broken jaw?

On his way back from Craster's Keep, in ASoS. Sam mistook another village for Whitetree.

All wildling villages looked much alike, though. A huge weirwood grew in the center of this one . . . but a white tree did not mean Whitetree, necessarily. Hadn’t the weirwood at Whitetree been bigger than this one? Maybe he was remembering it wrong. The face carved into the bone pale trunk was long and sad; red tears of dried sap leaked from its eyes. Was that how it looked when we came north? Sam couldn’t recall.

Around the tree stood a handful of one-room hovels with sod roofs, a longhall built of logs and grown over with moss, a stone well, a sheepfold . . . but no sheep, nor any people.

The other village is typical: it has a weirwood (smaller than Whitetree's, and without the big mouth), etc but has something that Whitetree lacks: a wooden longhall. I guess that buildings made of different material serve different functions, especially in such a small place. Here is a little indication that the longhall could have a religious function

[sam's] back ached so abominably from the walking that he would have liked to lean up against one of the carved wooden pillars that supported the roof, but the fire was in the center of the hall beneath the smoke hole and he craved warmth even more than comfort.

Is there a connection between the absence of longhall in Whitetree and the presence of the hollow weirwood? Is this discrepancy the sign of different religious practices?

Are the inhabitants of Whitetree the orthodox or the heretics? Craster, despite originating from Whitetree, seems to have the opposite religious affiliation: he lives in a longhall, but has nothing to do with stone buildings and weirwoods. We know that Craster is religious, since he insists on calling himself a godly man.

One more thing, in relation to Reek's origin in Whitetree: inside one of the houses of the village, which has been deserted for some time by now.

Dolorous Edd sniffed the air. “I smell dung.” The smell was very faint. “Old dung,” said Jon.

Could it be that the house had been inhabited by someone just as foul smelling as Reek? It's certainly possible that wildlings came to the Dreadfort area (Mance mentioned a trip along the east side of Long Lake, which logically brought him around the Dreadfort).

[brashcandy]

Good clues, Bran :) Those skulls in the weirwood trees are very strange, and the broken off jaw has to be important for some reason. Will think on this and be back!

Also, I like your suggestion that the first Reek could have been from Whitetree.

[brashcandy]

Bran, do you think it's possible that Domeric wasn't Roose's child?

[jarl the climber]

Just a crazy crackpot theory here, when Roose burns his book in ACOK is this perhaps an attempt to see signs in the fire by making an offering to R'hollor? Not really a theory just a thought.