Three theories on Roose Bolton (The fate of Domeric, Last day in Harrenhal, Lady Dustin)

[Drunkenspeton]

^^^^

Good catch in this line of reasoning. Its entirely possible Roose is playing some sort of game.

Wicked men all no doubt and Ramsay is truly wicked.

I don't think Roose would provide a murderous cur with men he didn't consider loyal to himself. It just doesn't fit his character.

There are some things in the books. Roose would have the tongue from a servant the way another man would cuff a dog. I think Arya Acok.

Dustins statements on him. I don't think he's adverse to using anyone in any way. If its him and them. He's gonna make damn sure its him. No matter who it is.

Roose could have been lying to Theon or planting some seeds knowing it would get back to Ramsay.

Perhaps even baiting Ramsay in some way.

Then we have Ramsays letter to Jon. With Theons escape with 'Arya' this might have changed Rooses plans considerably.

The outcome of Winterfell and the contents of that letter will reveal alot to us. I could see Roose giving his bastard some men going backto the Dreadfort and saying to Ramsay 'win, get back your wife or don't come back'. Without Roose, Ramsay is nothing.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Ramsay is far too crazy for Roose.... I think the time in Winterfell has only reinforced that. Roose is not the kind of guy to tolerate excessive risks, and Ramsay is a risk on two feet. Maybe Roose's new lady wife will get herself knocked up, and convince Roose to do away with Ramsay.

I want Ramsay to face Stannis in the field.... mainly because I want to see Ramsay given to the flames. If ever someone needed to be burned at the stake, it is our dear Ramsay.

[Dimadick]

,and it's very likely the silver was an empty promise , if silver was actually ever mentioned . It's also very possible that there was never any silver involved at all and that whole part of it was a cover story.

Nobody promised to give Little Walder silver. The phrase by Big Walder was "I told him not to go out, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver". ... "He never said [which man], my lord. Only that he won the coin at dice". So silver is mentioned in the text, But no promises.

[Dimadick]

If we stop here, we can wonder if Reek's "stink" wasn't merely abuse of various perfumes. After all, Roose is quite clear that he whipped him because he stole scent.

Currently the prevalent theory is that Reek I suffered from Trimethylaminuria, a metabolic disorder which causes "urine, sweat, expired air, and other bodily secretions" to have a strong body odor, similar to that of rotting fish. While the body remains otherwise healthy, the condition is known to cause problems in social interactions. "At the clinical level, the condition can be extremely distressing for the affected individual and can be responsible for a general destructive effect on the schooling, personal and social lives, as well as having an impact in adult life upon careers. At its extreme, it can be accompanied by severe mental depression occasionally leading to suicidal tendencies." See: http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/29/4/517.full

"Some individuals become socially withdrawn and isolated and may go on to develop mental depression .... The condition can be particularly acute and severe for young children and adolescents who may be subject to ridicule, lose confidence, and even schooling." Does it sound like Reek I and his social status in the Dreadfort?

[Bran Vras]

I've noticed something in a passage from AGoT that I thought was quite interesting...

AGoT, Bran IV, chapter 24:

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.

Now, it's interesting because it's so very specific. Old Nan's choice of words, 'they hunted maids through frozen forests' makes me think very much about Ramsay Bolton and his 'hunts'. :eek:

It's quite interesting. I have one objection though. The pale things "hated the touch of the sun". Ramsay's hunts begin precisely at sunrise, after having left his poor victim a night to try to escape. They seem to be a sort of revenge on the creature of the night, the converse to what you are suggesting. But I think the idea is taking form that Ramsay, without being aware of it, might be reenacting something.

[brashcandy]

Another important point from the quote provided by kissedbyfire:

They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins

We know that Roose is careful to purge himself of the hot blood in his veins, and suggests that this is what will be necessary to "cure" Ramsay of his temper.

In ADWD:

"His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leeches suck away all the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though ... his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear."

In ACOK:

"Frequent leechings are the secret of a long life. A man must purge himself himself of bad blood.

The trouble with the Boltons and blood might not be because it's "bad", but because it's hot.

[rickard]

To add to the speculation of these threads: Would it be possible that Lady Dustin is Ramsay's mother?

Timing wise, I'm interested in when Brandon Stark took her maidenhead, when Domeric was born, when Ramsay was born.

Furthermore, what specifically is known about Roose's lineage? What were his parents like?

I suppose it would be reasonable to claim that there is a connection between the House of Black and White and the Bolton's. How does the theory that Roose is sacrificing his truborn children to the old gods fit with the House of Black and White and Qyburn? How does Qyburn connect to the House of Black and White? I'm going to ponder the possibilities.....

[Bran Vras]

I very much like Brashcandy's suggestion that Roose has himself leeched so that his blood does not make him prey to the cold, dead things.

This might be nothing, but Roose says of Ramsay's mother

If truth be told, the wench was hardly worth the rope.

as if she were herself very cold and devoid of passions.

Concerning the age of Roose's sons: We know that Domeric spent four years as page, and three years as squire before returning to the Dreadfort. It seems that he died not long afterwards as a man grown two years before ACoK. I would guess he was less than twenty. (There is this incomprehensible remark of Roose where he says that "Lord Rickard's daughter", presumably Lyanna, could not outride him.) It seems to me that Ramsay is older. But I have seen no evidence.

[Frey Pie]

As an aside is it not weird that Roose sent Domeric for trainig and knighthood at all?How many knights do we know in the north outside Manderly?Helman Tallhart and a few more maybe.I dont think any of the dreadfort men are mentioned as being knights.So why is Domeric sent south at all?A sign perhaps that Roose never ment him to follow him as Lord?

[ckongo]

What is this evidence people are talking about? Talk about conspiracy theories. There's no motive/indication that Roose killed Domeric, but it's hard to believe Ramsay wouldn't have killed him when he visited considering the benefits. All your quotes show is that Roose is cold and has little emotion.

[Bran Vras]

As an aside is it not weird that Roose sent Domeric for trainig and knighthood at all?How many knights do we know in the north outside Manderly?Helman Tallhart and a few more maybe.I dont think any of the dreadfort men are mentioned as being knights.So why is Domeric sent south at all?A sign perhaps that Roose never ment him to follow him as Lord?

Domeric "played the high harp, read histories, rode horses", and was preparing to become a jouster. The harp is a known instrument in the north. I think Sansa has learnt to play it. I am not sure what "read histories" meant. The jousting tradition is surely southern. Brandon participated in the jousting at Harrenhal, but that might have resulted from Lord Rickard's "southern ambitions".

So I tend to think you are right, Domeric might have been prepared to become something else than a standard northern lord (not really a knight, unless Domeric was raised in the Faith of the Seven, something we have no reason to suspect).

What is this evidence people are talking about? Talk about conspiracy theories. There's no motive/indication that Roose killed Domeric, but it's hard to believe Ramsay wouldn't have killed him when he visited considering the benefits. All your quotes show is that Roose is cold and has little emotion.

The point of the first theory is not that Roose necessarily killed Domeric. It's that Roose insists on accusing Ramsay, as he doesn't have to. He could just have said "Maester Uthor said that Domeric died of a sickness at the belly". And that would be the end of it.

There is also the suspicion that Domeric was killed by the tears of Lys, a poison that Ramsay didn't have access to.

[Lykos]

Domeric "played the high harp, read histories, rode horses", and was preparing to become a jouster. The harp is a known instrument in the north. I think Sansa has learnt to play it. I am not sure what "read histories" meant. The jousting tradition is surely southern. <snip>

Domeric is made to appear as Rhaegar Mark II.

I don´t think Roose Bolton really sees Ramsey as his heir. The wedding at Winterfell serves the purpose to provoke Stannis, according to Roose. I think Roose is trying to provoke Jon into coming to Winterfell, and that he made Ramsey write the letter when Jon didn´t come, but I´m not shure why.

Edit for typos.

[Bran Vras]

As it has been noted upthread, Roose has no illusion about the real support he can expect from the north and the Lannisters. He counts only on Lady Dustin and expects a Stark son to resurface. He does not believe in Ramsay, and even undermined him by spreading rumours about the murder of Domeric. Nevertheless. Roose insists that the wedding should take place in Winterfell and on the presence of all the north, despite the possible problems with Manderly etc.

Since Roose is suspect to be practicing the dark arts, my provisional conclusion is that he came to Winterfell because the place holds some power, presumably in the crypts, that Lady Dustin insisted on visiting, perhaps on Roose's behalf.

I have considered that Roose could have written the letter. But I don't see how and why it could work yet.

[alienarea]

Domeric is made to appear as Rhaegar Mark II.

I don´t think Roose Bolton really sees Ramsey as his heir. The wedding at Winterfell serves the purpose to provoke Stannis, according to Roose. I think Roose is trying to provoke Jon into coming to Winterfell, and that he made Ramsey write the letter when Jon didn´t come, but I´m not shure why.

Edit for typos.

I can only speculate, but with his reading, the burning of that one book, his leechings and so on Roose seems to be searching for something. It could be sorcery, or old knowledge that got lost. The only reason I can think of for wanting Jon in Winterfell in this context is because he needs him to open the crypts. Roose believes Bran and Rickon to be dead and knows Arya is false, so Jon is the only Stark left.

[Bran Vras]

I can only speculate, but with his reading, the burning of that one book, his leechings and so on Roose seems to be searching for something. It could be sorcery, or old knowledge that got lost. The only reason I can think of for wanting Jon in Winterfell in this context is because he needs him to open the crypts. Roose believes Bran and Rickon to be dead and knows Arya is false, so Jon is the only Stark left.

I am open to the idea that a Stark is needed to open the crypts. However, Roose knows that Bran and Rickon are not dead. He says

[...] but what do you imagine is going to happen when one of Ned Stark’s sons turns up?”

It's not even conditional. Roose believes that a young Stark will reappear.

[alienarea]

I am open to the idea that a Stark is needed to open the crypts. However, Roose knows that Bran and Rickon are not dead. He says

It's not even conditional. Roose believes that a young Stark will reappear.

I missed that. Still, Roose knows where Jon is but doesn't know where Bran and Rickon are.

[Clueless Northman]

Roose insists that the wedding should take place in Winterfell and on the presence of all the north, despite the possible problems with Manderly etc.

Since Roose is suspect to be practicing the dark arts,

Obvious answer is that he wants to tie them all to his house with the wedding, hoping to gain their loyalty.

Crackpot theory could be that he wants to off the heads of all major houses in some red wedding redux. But that seems a bit weird and off-base to me.

[Lykos]

I have the idea that Roose is holding Rickon. And Manderly sent Davos, not only because he´s experienced at sea, but also a renowned smuggler.

So either Roose just wants to lure Jon into a trap to remove him, or he needs Stark blood to gain a certain power residing in Winterfell. And he doesn´t want to use Rickon for some reason.

I´m stil quite shure that Lady Dustin is not really Roose´s ally. She asked Theon when explaining her support for Roose, " who else is there?". This could of course have happened to find out whether Theon knew where Bran is.

Edit for typos.

[brashcandy]

As it has been noted upthread, Roose has no illusion about the real support he can expect from the north and the Lannisters. He counts only on Lady Dustin and expects a Stark son to resurface. He does not believe in Ramsay, and even undermined him by spreading rumours about the murder of Domeric. Nevertheless. Roose insists that the wedding should take place in Winterfell and on the presence of all the north, despite the possible problems with Manderly etc.

Since Roose is suspect to be practicing the dark arts, my provisional conclusion is that he came to Winterfell because the place holds some power, presumably in the crypts, that Lady Dustin insisted on visiting, perhaps on Roose's behalf.

I have considered that Roose could have written the letter. But I don't see how and why it could work yet.

I do think Lady Dustin might be much more involved in whatever Roose is planning. Besides her very informal way of addressing him, she's also strangely knowledgeable about Roose the man, and what motivates him, or in this case, what doesn't motivate him. Roose is also certain of her loyalty, asserting that if one of Ned's sons turn up, she will be the only remaining friend they have:

The elder Bolton sighed. “Again? Surely you misspeak.

You never slew Lord Eddard’s sons, those two sweet boys

we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak’s work,

remember? How many of our grudging friends do you

imagine we’d retain if the truth were known? Only Lady

Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots …

inferior boots. Human skin is not as tough as cowhide and

will not wear as well. By the king’s decree you are now a

Bolton. Try and act like one. Tales are told of you, Ramsay.

I hear them everywhere. People fear you.”

[Lykos]

brashcandy congrats to 4000 th post.

That makes it most likely that Roose will play Ramsay against Jon. Then turning against Ramsay, his only heir, to gain the support of the North. If that´s not enough he planned to present Rickon (but Davos has smuggled Rickon away in the meantime) to ensure the North´s loyalty.

Edit for typos.