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Bran Vras

Three theories on Roose Bolton (The fate of Domeric, Last day in Harrenhal, Lady Dustin)

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Crackpot theory:

Roose is new Night's King. He's been in communication with The Others somehow and is sacrificing his children for long life and a Kingship after the impending Others invasion. His leeches and careful died indicates a man trying to exstend his life. The reason behind The Others delayed invasion (they are just picking people off in the woods and not attacking after all) is they are waiting for Roose to do something. Maybe that's kill off all the Starks or find out more about PWP.

Roose tries to keep Domeric from The Others as he wants an heir and sends him off to be a ward. He returns and the Others find out before Roose can send him away somewhere else. He is forced to kill Domeric to maintain his pledge.

Perhaps this women is an Other who he has been bewitched by or maybe when he was returning from a meeting with The Others he desperately wanted to seed a son The Others would not find out about so raped the first woman he could and tried ignoring her until his son was older. Unfortunately his son grew up to be Ramsay and he's stuck.

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Two things. A bag of stars - stars are the lowest value denomination coins in westeros

Thanks for that. I had realized it in the meantime (with a little suspicion of a double meaning).

Well it could be extrinsic compulsion, for the sake of the argument lets say he was bewitched. Alternatively the rape was witnessed by gods and men, if Bolton takes his old gods religion seriously (and I think he does) then there might be intrinsic compulsion to provide for your child (ie that's what the old gods says you should do).

Very interesting. I can believe that there is a moral imperative to provide means of living for children conceived under the auspices of the Old Gods. But where does it appear in the books? By saying "witnessed by gods and men" are you suggesting that the hanging of the miller and the rape took place under a weirdwood?

Where does Roose show any religious devotion? (Surely there is no septon at the Dreadfort. There must be a godswood, but Roose never mentions it. Roose never visited the godswood at Harrenhal. Above all participation in the Red Wedding signals a certain, say, capacity to defy the gods.)

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I'm speculating that there might be a tradition that you have to provide for your child. The old gods are described as being in the stones and streams as well as in the trees - they are not specifically only in weirwoods. Remember that Gilly tells Sam that the trees can't watch them while they are out at sea so he can get away with breaking his oath. So the rape would have been witnessed by gods and men.

Bolton certainly keeps to old traditions - he tells us he keeps to the right of the first night even though it's been illegal for well over a hundred years. With regard to the red Wedding, well he wasn't the host he was a guest and seeing as he was related by marriage to Walder Frey it would have been impious to risk harming his in-laws!

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So you want crackpot?

It's been suspected by some that the Starks and other human wargs might have some COTF blood.

Well, now, what about Roose Bolton?

From ASOIAF Wiki:

His body is "soft hairless". He is of average size and appearance, with his only noticeable feature being his eerie, pale eyes. His skin is pasty white, most likely due to the leechings.

Except that, maybe, the leeching isn't the cause. Either he's a hypochondriac wanting to purge his body of the half of him he feels as being weak, or he just uses leeches to fool other people and make them think it's the cause of his paleness.

Hairless skin, pale eyes, pale skin, a little bit like the woman the Night's King spotted eons ago.

In other words: what if Roose Bolton has a bit of Other "blood" in him?

Either the whole Bolton line, like suspected for Stark line with COTF, or just he?

If the overall Bolton line is tied to the Others, it could explain even better their antagonism to the Starks.

Going for even more crackpot, could it be that the Boltons are actually descendants of the Night King and his Other consort - the Dreadfort being the secret successor to the Night Fort, and therefore in eternal opposition to Winterfell and his Starks?

Last but not least, to go back to the OP, Roose could seek to mate with the select few who also have Other blood in them, explaining why he would off his Andal and common First Man offspring but would spare Ramsay - since her mother has some weird looks.

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Interesting thread.

I can see only one clear point that I can make: the woman has power over Roose. She made a demand one year after the "rape", again when she was expelled from the mill, and again when she needed a servant for Ramsay. Every time, Roose fulfilled the request. Every year, Roose feels he had to send offerings to her ("bag of stars"?).

If the woman was indeed some kind of woodwitch (or rather a herb woman), maybe she gave Domeric the poison when he came to visit his half-brother?

She is demanding toward Roose, so maybe seeing Domeric made Ramsay and his mother come up with the idea of getting rid of the only other child Roose had?

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That's possible, sure. I don't remember where he was, but I don't think it's a given that Roose would have been in his vicinity to poison him or even have him poisoned. And if Roose was eager to off him and blame Ramsay for it, why try to disuade Domeric from meeting Ramsay?

Well, like I said, maybe in his twisted logic he expected Domeric to abjure his half-brother, and that would be the proof he needed that the boy wasn't worthy of his blood. That, OR silkakc's hypothesis, which would also explain why he didn't mind the possibility that Ramsay was to be executed:

If Roose did do what the OP thinks, it has to be connected to him leeching himself. A person wouldn't leech themself willingly unless they thought they were tainted. I'm guessing that the taint could be illness, evilness or weakness. Maybe he sees this same taint in his children?

If it's weakness that Roose purges from himself with leeches, perhaps he found Domeric weak because he was a gentle boy that liked to read, if I remember correctly.

I hardly think Roose is completely sane; he's not crazy in the obvious manner Aerys or Cersei (or Ramsay) are, but I don't think he works on the same logic of the other Lords of securing an heir at all costs. Unless Martin presents us with a reason why Roose is addicted to leeches, I will go with the hypothesis that he thinks his blood is tainted and that taint should be erased from Earth (or Westeros =P), which is a much better theory than the one I came up with on #10 ^.^

2) We are into weird territory if we want to explore Roose's motives. What sense do you make of this man who keeps close to him the murderer of his son and who doesn't mind the murders of his future children? So think twice before expecting a rational explanation at once.

:agree:

Also, I read the rest of the thread and I particularly liked the mention of Lysene perfumes (and poisons) at the Dreadfort and the idea that Roose might have seen Domeric conspiring against him, or decided to show him a lesson after (possibly) repeated defiance to him.

Here are my rather vague thoughts about all that. Roose tells the story while downplaying its importance, but that should not arrest us. If it were a fairy tale, I would say that the fox guided Roose to the woman, who is a spirit or a wood witch. However, the attraction felt by Roose is not natural for him. She is the physical opposite of Fat Walda. (It's weird to compare breasts to ripe plums.) Ramsay is right to say that Roose was smitten, it seems to me.

I can see only one clear point that I can make: the woman has power over Roose. She made a demand one year after the "rape", again when she was expelled from the mill, and again when she needed a servant for Ramsay. Every time, Roose fulfilled the request. Every year, Roose feels he had to send offerings to her ("bag of stars"?).

Roose tells us that he forbade Domeric to ride upstream to meet Ramsay, presumably where the woman lives. The fact that Roose's courser came up lame from the encounter may indicate that horses are not welcome near the woman, and Domeric is mad for horses. (And I don't see why Roose can say "even the riding part is wrong" in Ramsay's version since he had his horse that day. So whatever version of the story Ramsay has, it seems closer to the truth than Roose's on another point.) If you add the "tongue of the miller's brother cut out" bit to prevent the Stark from hearing the story, it's likely that that Domeric's expedition along the Weeping Water was indeed an important transgression.

So, you suggest Ramsay's mother killed Domeric? Well, it is repeatedly said poison is a woman's weapon (or is that sex? or tears? =P), so it could be, but I don't see why Roose would then say it was Ramsay, not her.

Edit: Btw, I kept wondering about the leeches... could it be Roose has syphilis? It could explain something of his behavior, and also why Ramsay is that way (if he already had the disease back when he raped Ramsay's mother). Because it was common in the old days, and I always found it funny that no character in ASoIaF is reported to have it.

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If the woman was indeed some kind of woodwitch (or rather a herb woman), maybe she gave Domeric the poison when he came to visit his half-brother?

She is demanding toward Roose, so maybe seeing Domeric made Ramsay and his mother come up with the idea of getting rid of the only other child Roose had?

Poison are not that common, and require specialist knowledge in Westeros. The maesters are trained in the manufacture of poison, as maester Cressen told us (ACoK, prologue).

I maintain my suggestion that the poison is the Tears of Lys, which would exclude Ramsay as a suspect. I recall from the show that the Tears of Lys leave no trace. And Maester Uthor has examined Domeric and would have detected a lesser poison, I would suggest.

All indications are that Ramsay couldn't have poisoned Domeric. But the maester remains as a suspect.

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Well, like I said, maybe in his twisted logic he expected Domeric to abjure his half-brother, and that would be the proof he needed that the boy wasn't worthy of his blood. That, OR silkakc's hypothesis, which would also explain why he didn't mind the possibility that Ramsay was to be executed:

I hardly think Roose is completely sane; he's not crazy in the obvious manner Aerys or Cersei (or Ramsay) are, but I don't think he works on the same logic of the other Lords of securing an heir at all costs. Unless Martin presents us with a reason why Roose is addicted to leeches, I will go with the hypothesis that he thinks his blood is tainted and that taint should be erased from Earth (or Westeros =P), which is a much better theory than the one I came up with on #10 ^.^

Also, I read the rest of the thread and I particularly liked the mention of Lysene perfumes (and poisons) at the Dreadfort and the idea that Roose might have seen Domeric conspiring against him, or decided to show him a lesson after (possibly) repeated defiance to him.

So, you suggest Ramsay's mother killed Domeric? Well, it is repeatedly said poison is a woman's weapon (or is that sex? or tears? =P), so it could be, but I don't see why Roose would then say it was Ramsay, not her.

My interpretation of the tale of Ramsay's conception is speculative. But, it seems to me that the woman is important to Roose, that Domeric's insistence to see Ramsay, and consequently the woman, was unacceptable for Roose.

Domeric a harp player, great jouster, and fine gentleman might have found himself at odds with what he saw at the Dreadfort. By the way, there are few scary things that haven't been explained about the Dreadfort:

1) Here is Robb in AGoT

Lord Roose never says a word, he only looks at me, and all I can think of is that room they have in the Dreadfort, where the Boltons hang the skins of their enemies.”

2) There is an unidentified prisoner in the Dreadfort, that the Walders briefly mistake for Theon (so I presume he has been equally badly treated).

3) I don't understand the maester situation: Roose went to war in the South without a maester. When Theon goes to the great Hall in the first Reek chapter, there is no maester present at the feast. When Roose tells Domeric's story he speaks of Maester Uthor in the present tense.

In the Theon chapter of TWoW, we learn that Tybald is the maester of the Dreadfort and is with the Karstarks.

Edit: Btw, I kept wondering about the leeches... could it be Roose has syphilis? It could explain something of his behavior, and also why Ramsay is that way (if he already had the disease back when he raped Ramsay's mother). Because it was common in the old days, and I always found it funny that no character in ASoIaF is reported to have it.

I am going to talk about leeches in the second theory. About syphillis, I guess GRRM keeps the good stuff for the last books. We'll write a letter of complaint if he doesn't. :drunk:

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Unless Martin presents us with a reason why Roose is addicted to leeches, I will go with the hypothesis that he thinks his blood is tainted and that taint should be erased from Earth (or Westeros =P), which is a much better theory than the one I came up with on #10 ^.^

If this is the case, with the addition of bastards being considered "tainted", there seems to be absolutely no reason he would kill Domeric before Ramsay.

Is it really too much to take Roose at face value? He doesn't seem like a guy scared to tell it how it is. He was fond/proud of Domeric, Ramsay killed him, but he doesn't want to kill Ramsay because 1) kinslayers are accursed and 2) boy lords are the death of a household (see: Robb Stark). So he keeps Ramsay around because he's all that House Bolton has, as none of Roose's future issue would be old enough to rule properly (read: not be a boy lord) when Roose dies even if Ramsay were to not kill them.

It makes perfect sense for a character presented as cold and calculating as Roose Bolton is.

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If this is the case, with the addition of bastards being considered "tainted", there seems to be absolutely no reason he would kill Domeric before Ramsay.

Is it really too much to take Roose at face value? He doesn't seem like a guy scared to tell it how it is. He was fond/proud of Domeric, Ramsay killed him, but he doesn't want to kill Ramsay because 1) kinslayers are accursed and 2) boy lords are the death of a household (see: Robb Stark). So he keeps Ramsay around because he's all that House Bolton has, as none of Roose's future issue would be old enough to rule properly (read: not be a boy lord) when Roose dies even if Ramsay were to not kill them.

It makes perfect sense for a character presented as cold and calculating as Roose Bolton is.

I agree, these explanations are all rational and, ultimately, what I believe about Roose. But I did find this thread funny, and some crackpot theories will never harm us :laugh: Though I am now convinced Roose is syphilitic, exactly because it makes so much sense. So, yes, I'm willing to forget what I wrote on the beginning of that post and say he uses leeches because of that disease, specifically.

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Eh, I think you're looking too hard for something that isn't there. There's zero evidence that Roose killed any of his sons, and there is absolutely no logic behind thinking he did. Also, kinslaying seems to be the biggest taboo sin in Westeros. Roose didn't do it.

Domeric either died of Illness (not uncommon in Westeros) or was murdered by his psychopath brother.

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Well, like I said, maybe in his twisted logic he expected Domeric to abjure his half-brother, and that would be the proof he needed that the boy wasn't worthy of his blood. That, OR silkakc's hypothesis, which would also explain why he didn't mind the possibility that Ramsay was to be executed:

I hardly think Roose is completely sane; he's not crazy in the obvious manner Aerys or Cersei (or Ramsay) are, but I don't think he works on the same logic of the other Lords of securing an heir at all costs. Unless Martin presents us with a reason why Roose is addicted to leeches, I will go with the hypothesis that he thinks his blood is tainted and that taint should be erased from Earth (or Westeros =P), which is a much better theory than the one I came up with on #10 ^.^

:agree:

Also, I read the rest of the thread and I particularly liked the mention of Lysene perfumes (and poisons) at the Dreadfort and the idea that Roose might have seen Domeric conspiring against him, or decided to show him a lesson after (possibly) repeated defiance to him.

So, you suggest Ramsay's mother killed Domeric? Well, it is repeatedly said poison is a woman's weapon (or is that sex? or tears? =P), so it could be, but I don't see why Roose would then say it was Ramsay, not her.

Edit: Btw, I kept wondering about the leeches... could it be Roose has syphilis? It could explain something of his behavior, and also why Ramsay is that way (if he already had the disease back when he raped Ramsay's mother). Because it was common in the old days, and I always found it funny that no character in ASoIaF is reported to have it.

Roose leeches himself because of a bowel movement problem or something,it was mentioned in COK and in DWD I think. To tell you the truth I think everyone is reading too much into this, Roose says he wanted Domeric to succeed him and hopefully turn the image of the Boltons into something better.

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Eh, I think you're looking too hard for something that isn't there. There's zero evidence that Roose killed any of his sons, and there is absolutely no logic behind thinking he did. Also, kinslaying seems to be the biggest taboo sin in Westeros. Roose didn't do it.

Domeric either died of Illness (not uncommon in Westeros) or was murdered by his psychopath brother.

The only way Roose killed Domeric is if he thought he wasn't his, which is unikely but not impossilble. Lady Dustin does beleive that Ramsey killed him or so Roose tells us. I've always wondered if there was any signifigance in Theon seeing a resemblance between Lady Dustin and Ramsey when he is talking to her in the crypts.

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The only way Roose killed Domeric is if he thought he wasn't his, which is unikely but not impossilble. Lady Dustin does beleive that Ramsey killed him or so Roose tells us. I've always wondered if there was any signifigance in Theon seeing a resemblance between Lady Dustin and Ramsey when he is talking to her in the crypts.

I have noticed the passage as well. Here it is, at the mention of Ned Stark's bones:

Her lips twisted. It was an ugly smile, a smile that reminded him of Ramsay’s.

(More later on Lady Dustin.)

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I have noticed the passage as well. Here it is, at the mention of Ned Stark's bones:

(More later on Lady Dustin.)

Now, we're on to something here.

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My crackpot theory is that Reek was the millers wife child, Ramsey is Rooses trueborn son through Lady Dustins sister and Domeric was Lady Dustins child through Brandon Stark.

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I dont think Roose needs any kind of motive to kill anyone.Many killers dont.

If the Boltons were always trying to overthrow the straks due to them having the nightd king/others blood then surely the starks would remember this ancient enmity if the boltons do.I think its simply house rivalry

If the millers wife was part other or something akin to that would she have married a miller?

My crackpot theory is that Domeric is Ramsey somehoww.I have nothing to back this up with other then the fact Ramsey seems to be a skilled enough horseman but has never been thought by anyone.Reek is the real Ramsey.This just passed through my mind as a what if as i was reading so i said id throw it up for shits and giggles

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I'd really like to know more about past Boltons. Unfortunately, Roose has no sibling, no living parents. There is only one indication on the previous Boltons. It's not much, but it seems to imply something.

Roose made a face, as if the ale he was sipping had suddenly gone sour. “There are times you make me wonder if you truly are my seed. My fore-bears were many things, but never fools.[..]"

Another creepy details about the Dreadfort that I noticed:

The great hall was dim and smoky. Rows of torches burned to left and right, grasped by skeletal human hands jutting from the walls.

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