Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Bran Vras

Three theories on Roose Bolton (The fate of Domeric, Last day in Harrenhal, Lady Dustin)

Recommended Posts

It seems to me that you have made a terrific finding with the "monster" thing. Let's look at Roose's tale:

The word "monster" is much in use throughout ADwD. But it is used for exactly two babies. One is Ramsay, the other is Craster's son. Here are Val and Jon at the Wall, when Val is about to leave to search for Tormund.

Аnd what about the 'I'm your monster, Brandon Stark.' line of Coldhands? It sure is creepy for two babies and a wight to be called by the same nickname...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Roose also mention the customs of the people of Skagos, I can't remember the exact quote, it had something to do with heart trees there and that perhaps blood sacrifices were still made there possibly. Have to wonder if Roose has some sort of connection to Skagos and if he is trying to get their support? He doesn't give us any great details or describe any first hand knowledge however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are a fews more occurrences of the appellation by Val, and Jon. The Mountain clans bring the nurses for the baby (the same mountain clans that practice the first night?)

Hmm, this is interesting Bran Vras. A baby born of incest, destined to be given to the Others, being provided with wetnurses from the mountain clans who allegedly still practice their own form of outlawed sexual rites.

And is it merely a coincidence that the Night's King is suspected to have come from these two families amongst others?

According to the wiki on the NK:

Some claimed him to have been a Bolton, a Magnar, an Umber, a Flint, Norrey or Woodfoot. The only real information we have on the Night's King comes from one of Old Nan's stories which Bran recalls on reaching the Nightfort, in which she identifies him as a Stark of Winterfell and hints his name too was Bran. He was the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and a fearless warrior, he fell in love with a woman "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars...her skin was cold as ice." The description matches that of the Others.

I'm also pondering about the miller's wife and where she came from. I don't know how medieval marriage customs played out, but certainly the miller should have realised that he was risking his life by not alerting his lord to his new marriage? Here's what Roose says on the woman again:

The old miller had gotten himself a new young wife, a girl not half his age. She was a tall, willowy creature, very healthy-looking. Long legs and small firm breasts, like two ripe plums. Pretty, in a common sort of way. The moment I set eyes on her I wanted her.

A few curious things: 1. The word "healthy" is italicised - now is this to emphasise just how healthy she was looking, or to suggest that the appearance did not match the reality? 2. Roose says that the moment he set eyes on her he wanted her. Could he have been bewitched?

Then we have the strange similarity in name to address Ramsay and Gilly's baby: monster. Is there something inherently monstrous about the baby or Ramsay? Roose's question on whether Ramsay corrupted Reek or Reek corrupted Ramsay pertains to this issue of nature vs. nurture as well. FWIW, Roose believes Ramsay has tainted blood:

"His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leeches suck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though... his tainted blood would poison even the leeches, I fear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the midst of all this, can you explain the Reeks? I know Ramsey was the previous Reek, but who was the Reek before him? Do we know if this is a long line of Reeks, like the castle fool, always being replaced when they die?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still puzzled by the fact Roose clearly acknowledges that House Bolton won't survive more than a few years under Ramsay Bolton. Basically, he won't do better than a boy lord.

Or it's that he simply doesn't care anymore about the survival of his house, because it should be clear to him that it's utterly hopeless, both options leading to failure.

this supports the theory that Roose is using blood magic to stay youthful, because he doesnt seem the least bit worried about the eventual destruction of his house, implying that he expects to be around for a very long time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty sure Theon is over 20 in AGOT, thats like an old man in Westeros.

Rhaegar was in his mid 20's, 24 at the Trident.

Renly is a year older than Theon, so he is in his 20's when he goes to war.

Rob - He would have made the same mistake at 40, honor killed him. Plenty of "boy lords" have no problem with a little P in V action.

Martel - Herp Derp duhhhhhh, he would always be ugly so Dany would never be interested.

I think by boy lords, Roose was referring to kids and tweens.

In comparison to Roose-welt they are all stupid emo-boys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know Ramsey was the previous Reek

No he wasn't, though some people are speculating that they might of changed places at some point. Having said that as far as book facts go, Ramsey is not, was not Reek.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No he wasn't, though some people are speculating that they might of changed places at some point. Having said that as far as book facts go, Ramsey is not, was not Reek.

There is no speculation, it's very explicit in the books.

Roose sent a boy called Reek to Ramsay. When Ramsay was hunted for the murder of Lady Hornwood Ramsay switched clothes with Reek. So Reek (in Ramsays clothes) was killed in his place. Ramsay continued to pose as Reek, calling himself Reek,until he unveiled himself to Theon when he took Winterfell from him. Those are the book facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, ok, so I've been thinking on this Bran, and going over the scene where Roose tells Theon about his encounter with the Miller's wife. Now, I think others have posited that because of this action, Roose may have been cursed, and somehow beholden to the Miller's wife and looking after her. Roose claims that other Northern families have kept up the tradition of the Lord's Night:

Now, Roose could very well be telling the truth here about the Umbers and the clans, or he could be trying to validate his actions to himself and to Theon by making an assumption that he's not alone in his actions. Either way, what Roose did went beyond merely raping the man's wife. He kills her husband and then takes the woman as the dead man is hanging from a rope on a tree.

As it is, Roose describes Ramsay as a "squalling, red-faced monster" when the mother show up at the Dreadfort, but relents because the babe had his eyes. I don't think anyone would describe Roose as caring and paternal, but this seems a like a fairly tender and fatherly reaction for him to have.

Onto the blood theory: I'm intrigued by your suggestion that it was Roose and not Ramsay who killed Domeric. I have one major question to that end: do we have any other proof that Domeric did indeed seek out his bastard brother as Roose claimed? As far as I know, trueborn sons are not in the habit of seeking friendship with their bastard relatives, except in the case where they may have grown up together. In any case, the supposed poisoning of Domeric definitely seems more in keeping with Roose's style as someone familiar obsessed with the properties of blood and purification.

Roose also poses an interesting question when he is talking to Theon:

We don't know do we? All we know is that Roose claims the first Reek had some kind of sickness of the blood which made him perpetually stink.

As to the book that he is reading and then burns, I agree that his deep contemplation and the general spooky atmosphere suggests that it could have been on a supernatural topic, something to do with sorcery.

So just what has Roose learnt over the years on this subject? And is this why he's never suffered a bruise of blemish despite fighting in many battles before? Is Roose trying to prolong his life unnaturally by using the blood of his sons?

Ahhh, questions, questions :)

Well, if you incline that Roose is some kind of countess Bathory or Jill de Rez - he'll need a huge pile of sons to help him sustain his eternal "youth" for years. A leach full with Edric Storms blood maybe helped Mel to imbue flames with some uncertain images, but something in the vein of what is implied to Rooses actions - will need a barrel of Bolton blood each times that he's making his rites (I presume), and that a resource that is hard to achieve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, Roose believes Ramsay has tainted blood:

So according to Roose Ramsay's blood is tainted, and original Reek's blood had a stench to it... If in both cases he inclines it literally, and not as a figure of speech - does it means that they share the same blood (are they actually relatives or even... ONE PERSON)? Worth to consider it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, if you incline that Roose is some kind of countess Bathory or Jill de Rez - he'll need a huge pile of sons to help him sustain his eternal "youth" for years. A leach full with Edric Storms blood maybe helped Mel to imbue flames with some uncertain images, but something in the vein of what is implied to Rooses actions - will need a barrel of Bolton blood each times that he's making his rites (I presume), and that a resource that is hard to achieve.

Not now that he has a fat, fertile wife whom everyone knows is just so anxious to provide Roose with true-born sons... Hmmm, maybe there's something more to Roose freely advertising Walda's letters to him when he was at Harrenhal, or god knows Roose could have been writing them himself, or getting Qyburn to do it...

"There is a letter from your lady wife." Qyburn pulled a roll of parchment from his sleeve. Though he wore maester's robes, there was no chain about his neck; it was whispered that he had lost it dabbling in necromancy.

"You may read it," Bolton said.

The Lady Walda wrote from the Twins almost everyday, but all the letters were the same. "I pray for you morn, noon, and night, my sweet lord," she wrote, "and count the days until you share my bed again. Return to me soon, and I will give you many trueborn sons to take the place of your dear Domeric and rule the Dreadfort after you." Arya pictured a plump pink baby in a cradle covered with pink leeches.

So maybe reading letters aloud is nothing extraordinary in such a time and place, but a personal letter from one's wife should at least merit a private reading, shouldn't it? We also learn that Walda has been sending constant letters filled with the same info and the fact that Arya is privy to this suggests that Roose is being quite free with the contents of his wife's letters on a regular basis. But what is really interesting is that Roose is keen to let others know that his wife plans on filling the Dreadfort with his trueborn sons.

Later on in ADWD he tells Theon:

"... Lady Walda is a Frey, and she has a fertile feel to her. I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. The two before her never made a sound in bed, but this one squeals and shudders. I find that quite endearing. If she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons. Ramsay will kill them all of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House. Walda will grieve to see them die, though."

So Roose is quite pleased with the fact that he has a fertile wife who is a lot more vocal and responsive in bed. He isn't shy about letting Theon know this, and he wasn't shy about letting his men know in the first example of just how eager Walda is to provide him with heirs. But of course Roose doesn't expect them to live very long. So there's a puzzling contradiction and inconsistency at work here. I think Roose wants those babies, and he wanted others to know he was setting about to getting them... but he doesn't intend for fat Walda's children to live very long, and he has the perfect scapegoat to blame it all on now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been looking at the boards since I finished Dance back in July. I have to say, this is the most interesting thread I've come across since. It is certainly the only thread over 3 pages where I've read every post. So Kudos to Bran Vras, Brashcandy and all others who are contributing to a great read.

I read all the books in about a four week span and am waiting to do a re-read until after I see the season on HBO. Naturally, I've missed a lot of suff. I had completely forgotten that Qyburn has been around since Clash. I loved his character, thought he was super creepy, but didn't really think much of him because I figured Martin wouldn't that much with such a new character. After reading this thread and realizing he has been around almost as long as Melisandre, made me think you guys are right on and I can't wait to see the full extent of his evil/plans.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that the Wildlings know a lot more about the mythology of the WWs than they have told. That phrase "the North remembers" also applies to them. I also love how much mythology is coming around full circle. Azor Ahai, dragons, the Nights King, etc. It makes me think that this is some supernatural/celestial cycle that the world Westeros, Essos, and Southryos inahbit goes through every several thousand years or so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the matter with Roose being the only child? I cannot think of another house in the series with the exception of the Arryns, where there is only the heir-apparent: Baratheon - 3 brothers, Tully - 3 children of Lord Hoster, Stark - 4 children of Lord Rickard, Tyrell - 4 children (I think) of Mace Tyrell and I don't want to even mention the Freys. Upthread someone quoted Roose talking about his forebears and their heritage - isn't it odd that he is the only Bolton of his generation around - no siblings, his wives die one after another, his children too. Is there some tradition in House Bolton which causes that? Has Roose passed some sort of a test in order to not be killed (by the forebears) and inherit his lordship?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have studied a bit the Craster/Roose connection. The investigation is not over, but I found a few things of interest.

1) Here is what Ygritte told Jon

“Craster’s more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t’ his Wall. She went t’ Castle Black once t’ show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster’s blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse.” She ran her fingers lightly across his stomach. “I feared you’d do the same once. Fly back to the Wall. You never knew what t’ do after you stole me.”

Compare to Roose's story:

A year later this same wench had the impudence to turn up at the Dreadfort with a squalling, red-faced monster that she claimed was my own get

and Roose about Ramsay:

His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leeches suck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though ... his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear.”

There are two analogies. Like Roose and Ramsay, Craster has "bad blood". Like Ramsay's mother, Craster's mother brought the baby back to his father, to demand something.

Remark: Craster's father fled after "having had" Craster's mother. Roose tells us that when he came back home his favourite courser was lame. Did Roose flee after having taken his first night's right?

2) Roose says:

Each year I sent the woman some piglets and chickens and a bag of stars, on the understanding that she was never to tell the boy who had fathered him.

When the Night's Watch come to Craster's keep, the animals (pigs, sheep) have disappeared. The Black brothers wonder about the location of Craster's larder. It seems now that Craster gave his animals as offerings.

3) Here is Gilly

Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”

“They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They. They. They.”

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

We know that Ramsay and Domeric have brothers who died in the cradle.

4) Here are Craster's last words, which make him sound suspiciously like Ramsay:

“Who calls me bastard?” Craster roared,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting clues there, Bran :) Especially the one with Craster's mother turning up at the wall and being driven off by the crows. And Ygritte's statement that Craster is more his kind than the wildlings is intriguing as Roose would not be considered part of the wildling culture either. So just what is the curse that Craster bears which compels him to give up his sons to the Others? And does Roose bear this same curse? Is this why he's so happy with being married to the fertile Walda? Or did Roose's "acceptance" of the child change the dynamics of the curse? (Sorry if this all sounds like mumbo jumbo folks! Just speculating as I'm typing :))

Let's say that the origins of Ramsay's birth have given him the same bad blood as Craster. What natural law did Roose transgress when he raped the miller's wife, or was it the woman who was important herself? Did Roose in effect "steal" the woman, and was then responsible for her as the wildlings believe?

And I'm wondering what to make of Ygritte's statement right before she tells Jon about Craster's origins:

A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.

ETA: And that bastard accusation really seemed to freak Craster out. So I'm definitely supporting the Craster/Ramsay/Roose connection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for general knowledge purposes, here's the story Bran tells of the Night King (from Old Nan):

He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself a king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse quen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joruman of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forgotten.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no speculation, it's very explicit in the books.

Roose sent a boy called Reek to Ramsay. When Ramsay was hunted for the murder of Lady Hornwood Ramsay switched clothes with Reek. So Reek (in Ramsays clothes) was killed in his place. Ramsay continued to pose as Reek, calling himself Reek,until he unveiled himself to Theon when he took Winterfell from him. Those are the book facts.

Thank you, I must have missed that part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, I must have missed that part.

You are very welcome, it's easy to miss such details in books as massive in information as these :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Concerning the black blood and the curse, hotweaselsoup put together a list of the references to black blood a while back if you are interested, we were also discussing it. But I would like to add that bastards seem to be mentioned in connection to bad blood and black blood.

My response to hws post was:

It seems GRRM likes to write "black blood" in all possible circumstances biggrin.png

Black blood seems to mean something bad in general, like something that is doomed, via poison, illness, death, perhaps sorcery and then the Night's Watch... That makes me a bit uncomfortable, why do the NW have "black blood" exactly? Maybe it has something to do with them being doomed, or that their purpose is tied to death, as in dying for the realms of men, like lambs of sacrifice. Or am I just reading too much in this?

Thought you may be interested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting clues there, Bran :) Especially the one with Craster's mother turning up at the wall and being driven off by the crows. And Ygritte's statement that Craster is more his kind than the wildlings is intriguing as Roose would not be considered part of the wildling culture either. So just what is the curse that Craster bears which compels him to give up his sons to the Others? And does Roose bear this same curse? Is this why he's so happy with being married to the fertile Walda? Or did Roose's "acceptance" of the child change the dynamics of the curse? (Sorry if this all sounds like mumbo jumbo folks! Just speculating as I'm typing :))

Let's say that the origins of Ramsay's birth have given him the same bad blood as Craster. What natural law did Roose transgress when he raped the miller's wife, or was it the woman who was important herself? Did Roose in effect "steal" the woman, and was then responsible for her as the wildlings believe?

And I'm wondering what to make of Ygritte's statement right before she tells Jon about Craster's origins:

A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.

ETA: And that bastard accusation really seemed to freak Craster out. So I'm definitely supporting the Craster/Ramsay/Roose connection.

That word monster creeping in again.Interesting to note that while Yrgitte says this offends the gods while Craster often describes himself as a godly man.Points towards different gods to me-the wildlings follow the old gods of the trees,Craster worships the WW as gods.Black blood can always be a description of him having NW blood in him.

I would think it was the woman who was important.If Roose had done me a slight,with what i know of him,i wouldnt go after him without an army.This one woman comes and demands help raising the child.You dont do that wthout major cojones.

Is there a chance perhaps that Roose is proud that Ramseys blood is so bad?With all this talk of Roose and his heirs lets keep this in mind-if he is in league with the others he thinks the end of the world as he knows it is coming.In the face of this perhaps having a viable heir to play the game of thrones isnt so important

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×