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Bran Vras

Three theories on Roose Bolton (The fate of Domeric, Last day in Harrenhal, Lady Dustin)

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Many good suggestions. It's difficult to keep up.

Brashcandy: we thought the same thing. Roose and Craster's father broke the same taboo by not acknowledging paternity, hence Ramsay and Craster suffer from the same curse.

This is why it seems plausible to me that the woman of Weeping Water is a wildling (or at least that she belongs to the wildling culture). I have no explanation for the presence of a wildling woman near the Dreadfort. But we know that Val, for instance, could have gone above the wall with Jarl (and she might even have met Mance on the south side of the Wall), and, after all, Osha came near Winterfell. The woman was apparently a newcomer at the mill, since Roose did not know her and Roose knew the miller.

Eira: Thanks for reporting the findings from the Heresies. I hoped somebody would do it.

Frey Pie: It has been said upthread (by jarl the climber and others) that Roose knows that his political situation is too brittle for him to hope to rule the North for long. I concur to your suggestion that Roose's real plans might be about survival during the Long Night. If we return to that fateful day at Harrenhal, when Roose decided to betray the Stark, we have a glimpse of what is in Roose's mind at that moment.

The hunting party returned near evenfall with nine dead wolves. Seven were adults, big grey-brown beasts, savage and powerful, their mouths drawn back over long yellow teeth by their dying snarls. But the other two had only been pups. Lord Bolton gave orders for the skins to be sewn into a blanket for his bed. “Cubs still have that soft fur, my lord,” one of his men pointed out. “Make you a nice warm pair of gloves.”

Bolton glanced up at the banners waving above the gatehouse towers. “As the Starks are wont to remind us, winter is coming. Have it done.”

Hence the Game of Thrones is not the only preoccupation of Roose. He knows that hard times are ahead.

I tend to agree with Eira: Roose wanted to be in Winterfell to have access to the crypts (and I have already said so upthread), which obviously have mystical powers (I like the cave of the children suggestion).

Gurkhal: I am not sure of your point. The main thesis of the OP is that the idea that Ramsay killed Domeric is entirely due to Roose. Roose tells Theon:

“Ramsay killed him. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison."

It would have been easy for Roose to absolve Ramsay of Domeric's murder. Roose would have just had to repeat the maester's pronouncement. Roose deliberately told the world that Ramsay killed Domeric. So I say that Roose uses Ramsay to hide the truth. For questions of motive, use of poison etc. See rest of the thread.

Small things I noticed, and questions:

1) In his tale with the miller's wife, Roose says that he found the woman as he was tracking a fox. There is the possibility that the fox led Roose to the woman. The beast might have been warged. For those interested in such a possibility, there is one hint that foxes can be warged, in a story told by Lysa to her son Robert:

“He likes stories about animals the best. Do you know the little song about the chicken who dressed as a fox? I sing him that all the time, he never grows tired of it.

2) The story of Roose cutting the miller's brother tongue seems to have an echo in Craster, who cut the tongue of Mance's envoy. Evidently Craster wanted to silence the envoy.

“That Mance Rayder?” Craster spit into the fire. “King-beyond-the-Wall. What do free folk want with kings?” He turned his squint on Mormont. “There’s much I could tell you o’ Rayder and his doings, if I had a mind. This o’ the empty villages, that’s his work. You would have found this hall abandoned as well, if I were a man to scrape to such. He sends a rider, tells me I must leave my own keep to come grovel at his feet. I sent the man back, but kept his tongue. It’s nailed to that wall there.” He pointed. “Might be that I could tell you where to seek Mance Rayder. If I had a mind.” The brown smile again. “But we’ll have time enough for that. You’ll be wanting to sleep beneath my roof, belike, and eat me out of pigs.”

3) Speaking of millers, isn't it remarkable that Ramsay, who had been raised as a miller's son, decided specifically to kill the miller, his wife and sons near Winterfell to obtain corpses for fake Bran and Rickon.

4) Here is another scene in which Craster's and Ramsay's cruelty seem to echo each other. In the second Craster chapter (it's in ASoS), a brother is gravely injured on the floor

“That one’s dead.” Craster eyed the man with indifference as he worried at a sausage. “Be kinder to stick a knife in his chest than that spoon down his throat, you ask me.”

In Winterfell, when a fight erupts between the Freys and the Manderlys:

A dozen more were wounded and one of the Bastard’s Boys, Luton, was dying noisily, crying for his mother as he tried to shove a fistful of slimy entrails back through a gaping belly wound. Lord Ramsay silenced him, yanking a spearfrom one of Steelshanks’s men and driving it down through Luton’s chest.

I noticed it because we do not have many instances of such "mercy" in the book.

5) Lord Mormont treats Craster with respect and even sympathy.

“A roof would be most welcome, my lord,” Mormont said. “We’ve had hard riding, and too much wet.”

It's curious that Mormont calls Craster "My Lord". Lord Mormont is proud and not prone to obsequiousity. I understand that Mormont wants Craster to say where is Mance. But, I don't think Mormont would call anybody My Lord who is not highborn somehow. Note that Mormont gave his own precious axe (with gold inlays) as a present to Craster, maybe this was the price to pay to get Mance. I suppose there is something that Lord Mormont knew and that we don't about Craster. Could it be that Craster's father was a lord exiled to the Wall?

6) Someone has to say it at a point: Domeric rhymes with Reek. I am unable to disprove that Reek is Domeric. Roose says that:

Reek was his tutor, the first Reek, and Reek was never trained at arms.

I first thought that would distinguish him from Domeric. But, of Domeric, Roose says

A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin’s page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses ... the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard’s daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first.”

No mention of training at arms. Of course, if Reek was Domeric, much has to be explained (was his personality even more completely erased than Theon's ever was?).

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Well, they took it. They didn't take Arya/Jeyne to the Dreadfort and married her to Ramsay there, it was important for them to show the north that Ramsay is now lord of Winterfell. To me it seems the power over the north derives from Winterfell, traditionally, and perhaps there is also some substance behind it besides the symbolism of being the lord of the Stark residence.

Precisely, that was my point.

Some more ideas about Boltons, BrosBeforeSnows postes this in the #1 Heresy thread:

I think that the Boltons and the Starks have an intimate history, and they are probably related since way back. All the northern noble houses should be, like European royalty...

Thanks for all the extra info.I think if enough is gathered the answer may be found.Think im going to give it some time to try and think this through a bit more!If Winterfells the answer why torch it?I know it wasnt destroyed but even so.....built by Brandon with giants and magic one would think-a place where magic is stronger?Useful for Roose if our darker thoeries are true.....

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@Eira - did you guys find out anything more about the Night's King in the heresy threads?

@Frey Pie - oh yeah, baby killing is definitely evil; I just meant that I was going to consider his agenda more broadly :)

Also, in thinking about the story Ygritte told Jon about Craster's mother, where the NW men blew horns and chased her off, this seems like a bit of overkill doesn't it? And just how many horn blasts did they make?

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On the matter of the word monster Jaime wonders if hes a monster when he feels nothing after hearing of Joffreys death.This is partially explained by the distance imposed between them due to the necessity off keeping there relationship secret.Jaime later goes on to say if Cersei wants more kids hel give them to her and this time hel be their father.Therefore i find this in contrast to a completely unfeeling Roose-Jaime is grey,Roose is black.

Bran-my post was being written as you made yours so apologies for the overlap.Im not sure if this was the day Roose decided to break with Robb.If what i was thinking earlier is true then Boltons would always have treachery in the back of their minds.Ned was too strong with too many allies to break with.I do think this is the day when Roose found out what he needed to to make him firm in his purpose though.

On the Domeric=Reek note-would Domeric the excellent rider be caught by Rodricks men?

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Bran, how are pronouncing Domeric? I always say it with a harsher "ick" ending that doesn't rhyme with the softer "eek" of Reek.

Anyways, I like your suggestion that the fox could have been warged (it conveniently escaped) and as it was, that entire day was cursed for Roose with his horse going lame.

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5) Lord Mormont treats Craster with respect and even sympathy.

It's curious that Mormont calls Craster "My Lord". Lord Mormont is proud and not prone to obsequiousity. I understand that Mormont wants Craster to say where is Mance. But, I don't think Mormont would call anybody My Lord who is not highborn somehow. Note that Mormont gave his own precious axe (with gold inlays) as a present to Craster, maybe this was the price to pay to get Mance. I suppose there is something that Lord Mormont knew and that we don't about Craster. Could it be that Craster's father was a lord exiled to the Wall?

I noticed this too, and also thought it strange. It made me think that Craster's father was an important man of the Watch. We know Craster don't consider himself a bastard, so that could be why Mormont is so polite. I think it implies that Craster thinks his father was noble, and his mother was married to him, she could have been too. The nothern marriage ceremony only requires a weirwood and perhaps witnesses, as far as I know. And the free folk marriage custom only requires the man to steal the woman. So in a way he probably was a lord.

I was going to add what Brashcandy just wrote above... :)[about Craster's father]

That the brothers of Craster's father drove her away is interesting since we don't hear that the father himself was involved. Maybe the brothers were trying to protect the man, as in they didn't want anyone else in the Watch to know about who he was, he would have broken his vows. It could also be the other way around I suppose, his father was hated or cruel, and nobody wanted his child around, or feared what he would do if the child was brought to him. I think the former suggestion is more likely.

What is most strange about it is that we know of a second incident similar to this, and that is when the Watch took in Mance, another wildling child. I guess it could have happened during different LC's and therefore different policies, but for some reason we are specifically told of these two instances, and they differ a lot. I don't know how common it used to be, that the Watch took wildling children in, I can't remember if it was mentioned more times.

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Also, if Craster's father was a lord, it would make sense that this is why he wasn't punished by the NW and was actually protected by them when the woman was chased off.

ETA: Eira, we were typing at the same time it seems :)

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And it can't be a coincidence that Mance's child and Craster's child end up at the wall, except that this time the positions are switched and Craster's child gets to stay, whilst Mance's leaves with Gilly and Sam.

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Brashcandy, the discussion in the heresy threads on Craster have been about whether his father was a Stark in the Watch. [ETA: other things too, but this seems to be the relevant subject here.]

There have not surfaced many ideas about the Boltons, we know so little about their background. But some of us are suspicious for the same reasons as you have been discussing here, but no one has found so many quotes and references as you all have! It's been more of a vague feeling...

What we have touched upon is mostly Ramsay's hunting hobby, it sounds similar to what the white walkers are said to have done according to Old Nan. They hunted women through the woods too, and sired terrible half-human children, which is interesting when you consider the kinslaying curse... What do you do when your daughter/sister gives birth to a half-breed? It's still your own blood. I don't know how accurate the story is about this, but the hunting through the woods is strikingly like Ramsay and his bitches.

Others-human marriage pacts have been brought forth too, since a common way to end war has been through marriage alliences through out the books history. This idea comes also from the Night's King marrying a white walker woman supposedly, but nothing dangerous seem to have happened there, they just ruled the Nightfort for 13 years, oh my. And somehow got the brothers to go along with it by some *sorcery*. There was no Other invasion or war or anything. The kinslaying issue arises here too. The Night's king was never said to have been killed, only brought down, and if he had children with this Other-Lady they would have been half human. If it was the Stark in Winterfell that took the Night's King down, did he really kill his brother and his family? If no, where did they go? Up north into the cold wastelands, where they like it better mayhaps ;)

Now as you have said the Night's king could have been a Bolton instead, I am not sure why his name should be erased from memory if this was the case, what would it matter? To me it is more logical if he was a Stark, a hero and the lord paramounts son, a direct descendant of Bran the Builder, the saviour of the realm, hooray. The Night's King a black sheep of the family so to speak. And it would be even more important to keep shut about it if it turns out the Night's kings children were taken as wards, or hostages (hostages and psychological brothers a huge theme in the story) to Winterfell... In time they could have become part of the Stark family, adopted, legitimized even. Who knows?

Another interesting bit that I think some of you have noted already is that the old men in the north used to go out *hunting* during the winters. I think this could be why Roose thinks he will not see any new children grow up, since he probably is too young to die of old age. Maybe he does not expect to live long during this winter, it's an old northern tradition, and Roose is surely a man of tradition :)

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Thanks for all that Eira! Certainly gives us a lot to think about. The connection between Ramsay hunting women and the hunting done by the White Walkers is also intriguing... and ominous. IIRC, Ramsay is "merciful" when the women give him good sport, and kills them before he flays them. Does anyone else see a similarity between this and what Roose says about liking Walda in bed - her squealing and shuddering - in contrast to his other wives who just laid there?

Also, during that same conversation, Theon notes to himself about Roose:

Bolton's eyes looked empty in the moonlight, as if there was no one behind them at all.

Most likely means nothing, just highlighting Roose's coldness, but I thought it was worth noting in light of what Lady Dustin later tells Theon.

ETA: speaking of which, are we meant to take Walda's squealing and shuddering as positive reactions? I automatically did, but in thinking about it, shuddering is normally done when one is feeling cold, or fearful. I suppose Roose could be giving her pleasure, but still, even so, it could be a natural reaction to something she senses about him...

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I sort of rushed through this thread, so I apologise for restating forementioned opinions.

<snip>

I see two explanations for this dialogue: either Lady Dustin and Roose are so intimate that they do not address formally to each other, like husband and wife do (yes, possibly lovers or former lovers) or Lady Dustin is so dominant in their association that she can talk down to him.

<snip>

We never learn why Barbrey wanted to see Theon at that point. It seems clear that Roose and Barbrey have plotted something that involves him. I guess it is the role of "closest male relative of Arya Stark" that Theon will play for the marriage. But does it justify presenting Theon specifically to Lady Dustin?

I have no strong opinion yet on whether Lady Dustin is really an ally of Roose. It's often assumed that she is not, because of Domeric's death. I wouldn't be surprised if Roose told her that his former maester is responsible for the death, which would go well along the professed hate of Lady Dustin for the maesters. We hear Lady Dustin express displeasure at the way Ramsay treats "Arya" but she never blames Ramsay for the death of Domeric.

<snip>

Somehow Lady Dustin reminded me of Neville Longbottom´s formidable grandmother, so I´d say she is so dominant plus she has not much to loose. At least that is the role she is playing. She is a woman that has been robbed of everything she loved by the Starks, all that´s left to her, is revenge. The reason to see Theon is to assess him. To Roose she will have explained that with the reasons you gave, to see wether he´s fit for the role they want him to play in the wedding. But then she takes Theon to the crypts and gives him (us , the readers ) all this important information about Lord Rickard´s " Southron Ambitons" brought forth by his Maester. At first I thought she was a plot device, so that we know about these things, but I think GRRM is better than that.

<snip>

Lady Dustin is the Lady of the Barrowland:

Guarding the grave of the First King of the First Men must give you a certain sense of responsability for the North, I guess. She is also a Ryswell, a House, which through the tale of the 79 sentinels, has a reputation of unsurpassed loyalty to the Night's Watch.

<snip>

Does Lady Barbrey fancy herself as a woman of Night's Watch? She wears no jewel (the men of the Watch should wear no crown) and never remarried. One wonders if she pronounced the Oath of the Watch. She constantly presents herself as guardian of Northern traditions against the South: she disapproves of the Stark-Tully marriages and she does not seem to have a maester. Her outrage when Ned Stark failed to bring her husband's bones might reflect a real northern tradition, especially for the House which holds the grave of the First King.

So Lady Dustin consistently makes a stand for the North and she sees the Starks as having disgraced themselves. Whether she is justified or has authority to make that judgment remains to be seen.

<snip>

I think you could be right. Lady Dustin´s mission could be, to see that the pact between the First Men and the Children of the Forest is kept or reinstated. Sorry out of time.

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Domeric is the first Reek? :blink:

If true, that chages EVERYTHING. Domeric falls into the hands of his lost half brother who destroys him and strips him of his free will?

*shudder* :leaving:

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Going back to my original question, Ramsey was the Reek before Theon, and the Reek before Ramsey was killed in his place when they switched places. Right?

Now, Roose says he sent Reek to Ramsey - so who the hell was he? If he was Domeric, like DornishKnight I'm gonna puke, but there does seem to be evidence it wasn't Domeric (Reek wasn't trained in arms). I guess we don't have enough info, even with all the gleaning that's been done here.

And I assume my other question, do the Bolton's have Reeks like castle fools, to be replaced after they die, we have absolutely no evidence of this. But considering how they like to flay and humiliate enemies, it seems to me that instead of a fool the Boltons may have Reeks. Gag me with a spoon.

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Brashcandy, the discussion in the heresy threads on Craster have been about whether his father was a Stark in the Watch. [ETA: other things too, but this seems to be the relevant subject here.]

There have not surfaced many ideas about the Boltons, we know so little about their background. But some of us are suspicious for the same reasons as you have been discussing here, but no one has found so many quotes and references as you all have! It's been more of a vague feeling...

What we have touched upon is mostly Ramsay's hunting hobby, it sounds similar to what the white walkers are said to have done according to Old Nan. They hunted women through the woods too, and sired terrible half-human children, which is interesting when you consider the kinslaying curse... What do you do when your daughter/sister gives birth to a half-breed? It's still your own blood. I don't know how accurate the story is about this, but the hunting through the woods is strikingly like Ramsay and his bitches.

Others-human marriage pacts have been brought forth too, since a common way to end war has been through marriage alliences through out the books history. This idea comes also from the Night's King marrying a white walker woman supposedly, but nothing dangerous seem to have happened there, they just ruled the Nightfort for 13 years, oh my. And somehow got the brothers to go along with it by some *sorcery*. There was no Other invasion or war or anything. The kinslaying issue arises here too. The Night's king was never said to have been killed, only brought down, and if he had children with this Other-Lady they would have been half human. If it was the Stark in Winterfell that took the Night's King down, did he really kill his brother and his family? If no, where did they go? Up north into the cold wastelands, where they like it better mayhaps ;)

Now as you have said the Night's king could have been a Bolton instead, I am not sure why his name should be erased from memory if this was the case, what would it matter? To me it is more logical if he was a Stark, a hero and the lord paramounts son, a direct descendant of Bran the Builder, the saviour of the realm, hooray. The Night's King a black sheep of the family so to speak. And it would be even more important to keep shut about it if it turns out the Night's kings children were taken as wards, or hostages (hostages and psychological brothers a huge theme in the story) to Winterfell... In time they could have become part of the Stark family, adopted, legitimized even. Who knows?

Another interesting bit that I think some of you have noted already is that the old men in the north used to go out *hunting* during the winters. I think this could be why Roose thinks he will not see any new children grow up, since he probably is too young to die of old age. Maybe he does not expect to live long during this winter, it's an old northern tradition, and Roose is surely a man of tradition :)

For crackpottery sake how about this-House Bolton only started after the Nights King tale.Although wev hypothesised he may have been a Bolton its generally taken for granted that hes a Stark.However the first name mentioned is Bolton.Eira you mentioned what happened the offspring of the NKs marriage.Theyre half Stark so it isnt outside the realms of possibility that they were kept alive...how about the descendants of the Nightfort built the Dreadfort and house Bolton?Think someone mentioned Bolton has hinge or gate meanings in latin or something-Nightsgate is in Nightfort so Bolton makes sense in that way.Also the ancient enmity between the houses-revenge for bringing down famous anscestor?

In a different vein i was just looking at Brans triumvirate of flames post.In it he shows how there may have been secret Rhllor converts.This got me thinking that if theres them there must be secret Dark One converts/priests.The obvious one is Qyburn.Not so obvious-Roose,Gregor Clegane,Marwyn? My reasoning for Marwyn is that hes shunned by the citadel,Qyburn says Marwyn was interested in magic,he may have learnt magic from MMD,he may have reanimated Pates corpse and not everyone whos going to Dany can be good right?Surely she must have some secret enemy on the way....Clegane seems like a perfect champion of the dark.Hes been called monster enough times and i believe his blood has been called black-figuratively speaking.Hes cruel,evil and unthinking.This is before his possible transformation into Robert Strong.With Qyburns influence who knows what he is...And Rooses evidence is roughly 174posts in length by now :drool:

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So do we think maybe the reason The Others haven't launched a major attack yet because they are waiting for something from Roose? Maybe he has to find the horn of Jora or kill off all the Starks before they'll invade? Does he know Bran & Rickon are still kicking? If he doesn't maybe the "death" of Jon kicks off the Others invasion (i'm assuming he doesn't rate Sansa's chances of turning back up/posing a threat & believes real Arya dead).

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So do we think maybe the reason The Others haven't launched a major attack yet because they are waiting for something from Roose? Maybe he has to find the horn of Jora or kill off all the Starks before they'll invade? Does he know Bran & Rickon are still kicking? If he doesn't maybe the "death" of Jon kicks off the Others invasion (i'm assuming he doesn't rate Sansa's chances of turning back up/posing a threat & believes real Arya dead).

My way of thinking was Roose was assassinating all AA candidates.He doesnt really believe Stannis is AA and if AA will be a reincarnation of the last hero which many people think is Brandon the Builder then AA reborn should be a Stark.He must know Bran and Rickon are still around-Ramseys the one who killed their decoys for Theon.But theyre kids.Ned,Robb and Jon are all dead or thought dead.The girls are missing and he may even think AA has to be a man.Therefore i can see things kicking off in the next book and the attack of the others happening.Of course some people would say it already has

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My way of thinking was Roose was assassinating all AA candidates.He doesnt really believe Stannis is AA and if AA will be a reincarnation of the last hero which many people think is Brandon the Builder then AA reborn should be a Stark.He must know Bran and Rickon are still around-Ramseys the one who killed their decoys for Theon.But theyre kids.Ned,Robb and Jon are all dead or thought dead.The girls are missing and he may even think AA has to be a man.Therefore i can see things kicking off in the next book and the attack of the others happening.Of course some people would say it already has

Yeah I was just thinking that people think Jon's last thoughts on it getting cold may be related to a Wight attack. Is is possible its his death as the last adult Stark that triggers it (i'm not saying he'll stay dead). Mehaps Roose and or Ramsey were in contact with NW and arranged the letter and assassination to happen on a day and the Wight attack to happen straight after his death.

The thing that counts against this theory is if Roose knows that Bran & Rickon are alive as I don't think the Others would differentiate between adults and children. I'd think they'd at least want all the Starks dead. Is it possible Ramsey was given explicit instructions to kill the boys when he turned on Theon and that he won't admit to Roose he failed. I think they were in contact when he was at Winterfell because he tells his men to spare the Freys when they burn the castle down.

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For crackpottery sake how about this-House Bolton only started after the Nights King tale.Although wev hypothesised he may have been a Bolton its generally taken for granted that hes a Stark.However the first name mentioned is Bolton.Eira you mentioned what happened the offspring of the NKs marriage.Theyre half Stark so it isnt outside the realms of possibility that they were kept alive...how about the descendants of the Nightfort built the Dreadfort and house Bolton?Think someone mentioned Bolton has hinge or gate meanings in latin or something-Nightsgate is in Nightfort so Bolton makes sense in that way.Also the ancient enmity between the houses-revenge for bringing down famous anscestor?

In a different vein i was just looking at Brans triumvirate of flames post.In it he shows how there may have been secret Rhllor converts.This got me thinking that if theres them there must be secret Dark One converts/priests.The obvious one is Qyburn.Not so obvious-Roose,Gregor Clegane,Marwyn? My reasoning for Marwyn is that hes shunned by the citadel,Qyburn says Marwyn was interested in magic,he may have learnt magic from MMD,he may have reanimated Pates corpse and not everyone whos going to Dany can be good right?Surely she must have some secret enemy on the way....Clegane seems like a perfect champion of the dark.Hes been called monster enough times and i believe his blood has been called black-figuratively speaking.Hes cruel,evil and unthinking.This is before his possible transformation into Robert Strong.With Qyburns influence who knows what he is...And Rooses evidence is roughly 174posts in length by now :drool:

If the Boltons are descendants of the NK's half human children, then perhaps it explains the practice of flaying at House Bolton. If we accept the theory floating around that they flayed in an attempt to be like the genuine skinchanging Starks, it might have all started because, since being half-Stark, they did not have the full powers as wargs, and desperately wanted/envied this ability. The pale eyes that Ramsay and Roose have appears to be the definitive ancestral trait of the Boltons, maybe denoting a stronger connection with their "Other" heritage.

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If the Boltons are descendants of the NK's half human children, then perhaps it explains the practice of flaying at House Bolton. If we accept the theory floating around that they flayed in an attempt to be like the genuine skinchanging Starks, it might have all started because, since being half-Stark, they did not have the full powers as wargs, and desperately wanted/envied this ability. The pale eyes that Ramsay and Roose have appears to be the definitive ancestral trait of the Boltons, maybe denoting a stronger connection with their "Other" heritage.

It does explain quite alot doesnt it?Also the white womans(Ramseys mother)power over Roose.Also has sorcerous connotations-onwards and upwards my friends :cool4:

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If we accept the theory floating around that they flayed in an attempt to be like the genuine skinchanging Starks,

You see I can't accept this theory I think there's another explanation. It's like the Bolton's are some Neandathal men who don't understand to well. Even if you thought that you could gain his abilities, or imitate him after doing this once you'd realise this. No I think it's more likely they skin them because they have a reputation of being horrible bastards and they like that. But then I really don't get that Heresy thread its like a different book over there.

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