Independent George Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I'm re-reading AFFC right now, and noticed this exchange between Jaime and Blackfish:"I will permit you to take the black. Ned Stark's bastard is the Lord Commander on the Wall."The Blackfish narrowed his eyes. "Did your father arrange for that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both..."What, exactly, did Jon do at this point that makes Blackfish think him so untrustworthy? The only thing I can think of is granting sanctuary to Stannis; presumably, Riverrun received a raven with a copy of Jon's "paper shield". I still don't see how that puts him in the same league as Theon, though.It's a small point, but it sticks in my craw because (1) I really respect Blackfish, and (2) I hate the idea of someone like him holding Catelyn's grudge against Jon without good reason. I know it's silly, but there you have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 It's possible he thinks that Tywin bribed Jon with the Lord Commander position in exchange for ... who knows — staying at the Wall and not assisting Robb? I get the impression that the Blackfish also just has an inherent distrust of Jon in the same way that Catelyn did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Know Face Man Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Its as simple as most people think bastards are shady people not to be trusted. And the Blackfish thinks the Lannisters made Jon the Lord CommanderLike apple said the Blackfish just has a inherent distrust of Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Swaggering Bravo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Did he know about Robb naming him his heir? If so, then that would be likely, especially when he allowed Stannis his hospitality. Otherwise, he could have known about him joining the Wildlings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvilbreaker Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I think he only knows Jon through Catelyn and her all consuming hatred of him would have likely made the blackfish a bit biased. I don't recall any mention of him ever actually meeting jon, since he was in the vale, but I guess after then he just trusts catelyn's judgement on the boys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Did he know about Robb naming him his heir? If so, then that would be likely, especially when he allowed Stannis his hospitality. Otherwise, he could have known about him joining the Wildlings.Yeah, almost certain the Blackfish knows this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Swaggering Bravo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Yeah, almost certain the Blackfish knows this.Which one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If Robb named Jon as his heir and the Blackfish knows this, he might assume that Maege and Galbart approached Jon with the will, and Jon turned it down to stay at the Wall. I don't know if he knows that the will has yet to emerge from the Neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Wouldn't Robb naming him heir make him more positively inclined? The way he words it, it seems like he's got something specific in mind as to why he's untrustworthy. Joining the Wildlings definitely makes sense, except I'm not sure that word would have spread to the Riverlands at that point. Timing is always weird when discussing AFFC & ADWD, but the Boltons didn't even know about the Wildlings at the end of ADWD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Do you think that in the time Blackfish talks with Jaime he knows about Stannis and Jon making common case? If yes, could he really thinks that Jon is Lannister man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I think he only knows Jon through Catelyn and her all consuming hatred of him would have likely made the blackfish a bit biased. I don't recall any mention of him ever actually meeting jon, since he was in the vale, but I guess after then he just trusts catelyn's judgement on the boysI don't think Cateyn hated Jon, she just had a strong dislike towards him. The Blackfish knows his niece is a smart woman and he trusts her judgement, but he fails to take into account the way wives feel toward their husbands' bastards. Plus, he probably accepts popular culture's bastard stereotype.When he hears from Jaime that Jon is the LC of the Night's Watch, he assumes no one could have been made LC without the Lannisters' permission, and Jon must've cut a deal with them for the Lannisters to have allowed Ned Stark's natural son to be LC.As for Robb's will, Robb didn't reveal it until just before his forces reached the Twins, and the Blackfish wasn't there, he was holding Riverrun. I don't think the Blackfish knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Wouldn't Robb naming him heir make him more positively inclined?Not if he thinks Jon turned down the responsibility Robb entrusted him with.Honestly though, I don't know what the Blackfish knows about the will (namely, where the hell it is and who's actually seen it), if Robb named Jon as his heir or if that's even what he's referencing. For all he knows, though, Jon has seen the will, knows he's Robb's heir and turned down that claim in exchange for being named Lord Commander. The implication seems to be that Brynden thinks Tywin "gave" Jon the Lord Commander title in exchange for something. He might think it's in exchange for Jon dissociating himself from Robb's will.I don't think Cateyn hated Jon, she just loathed him.And those are different ... how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinphonus Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I conccur with everyone else, he must have hold some contempt towards Jon because Catelyn disliked him, and maybe also because he did not come to their aid, even though he is on the NW.And naming him heir would make an Tully angry, it would mean that the only "Tully" to be king in the north would be Robb, then would come a Stark and who knows what, commoner, Dayne, Targaryen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If Robb named Jon as his heir and the Blackfish knows this, he might assume that Maege and Galbart approached Jon with the will, and Jon turned it down to stay at the Wall. I don't know if he knows that the will has yet to emerge from the Neck.He probably learned it after Edmure told him - if he told him, though I don't see why he wouldn't have. I don't think he could've known before, considering they signed it not too long before the wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If Tywin supported Jon For the LC why would he be helping Stannis? His executuion of Lord Janos Slynt would also seem to be an indicator that he isn't in league with the Lannisters. Its possible that the Blackfish may have been in touch with Littlefinger and been fed some misinformation. On a practical level 2 long time Tully loyalists(Ryger and Grell) are headed to the wall probaly so they can find out what is really going on there. It could also be possile that Brynden said this to draw attention away from Jon, why would he want to tell Jamie what he really thinks about Jon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Swaggering Bravo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Wouldn't Robb naming him heir make him more positively inclined? The way he words it, it seems like he's got something specific in mind as to why he's untrustworthy. Joining the Wildlings definitely makes sense, except I'm not sure that word would have spread to the Riverlands at that point. Timing is always weird when discussing AFFC & ADWD, but the Boltons didn't even know about the Wildlings at the end of ADWD.Well, compared to the events that happened afterwards it wouldn't be a surprise that the Boltons found little importance in his stay with the Wildlings. Also, Catelyn's relay of Robb naming Jon his heir would no doubt be layered in what she thought of that, and the heir of the king in the north allowing another king to share his meat and mead would look very treacherous indeed. However, it may just be that Brynden buys what Catelyn says, since she's a rational minded person wtb the exception of Jon and, after all, she is his niece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 It could also be possile that Brynden said this to draw attention away from Jon, why would he want to tell Jamie what he really thinks about Jon?This is also another definite possibility that shouldn't be discounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevumar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 The Blackfish is an older guy, somewhat set in his beliefs, and not known for his compassion. It seems likely that what's going on here is that he's expressing the common beliefs of his society, that bastardy imparts unsavory personality characteristics along with depriving children of their parents' social status. Bastards are said to be untrustworthy, treacherous, sneaky, and a threat to their legitimate relatives. Brynden may or may not think Jon's personality manifests these traits, but he's very close to Catelyn and he trusts her opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevumar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 And naming him heir would make an Tully angry, it would mean that the only "Tully" to be king in the north would be Robb, then would come a Stark and who knows what, commoner, Dayne, Targaryen.I hope that this is not a factor in the Blackfish's attitude toward Jon. If he believed in Robb's cause and followed him willingly, shouldn't he also trust Robb's judgment in selecting an heir? Hopefully he knows better than to consider Tully blood the most important factor in selecting an heir to the Kingdom of the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Catelyn never had a good reason to hate Jon. She could not put a face on the woman she thought "seduced" her husband into cheating with her so she takes it out on Jon. In these situations as is the same in any infidelity, the Baby is innocent of any crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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