The gift chapter and a clue regarding "Aegon/Young Griff"

[WhitewolfStark]

Knowing that GRRM is heavily inspired by the Wars of the Roses...

fAegon just has too many similarities to Henry VII for me not to consider him a son of a previously legitimized bastard line who has been raised all his life abroad to think himself the rightful ruler. The parallel is that obvious to me.

Jon Connington is easily an analogue for Jasper Tudor--the man who lived in exile with Henry VII and has raised him to be ready to take the throne.

However, while I draw parallels, I will say that GRRM, while he takes inspiration from history he does find ways to make it his own "thing". For example the story of Daenerys in AGOT up until she loses Rhaego is quite obviously inspired from the life of Maragert Beaufort (Henry VII's mother).

At the time I thought it was GRRM saying: there will be no Henry VII in this fantasy re-telling of the Wars of the Roses, as Henry VII was aborted!

But then I was introduced to fAegon--and it all clicked for me.

[Uldra I]

Knowing that GRRM is heavily inspired by the Wars of the Roses...

fAegon just has too many similarities to Henry VII for me not to consider him a son of a previously legitimized bastard line who has been raised all his life abroad to think himself the rightful ruler. The parallel is that obvious to me.

Jon Connington is easily an analogue for Jasper Tudor--the man who lived in exile with Henry VII and has raised him to be ready to take the throne.

However, while I draw parallels, I will say that GRRM, while he takes inspiration from history he does find ways to make it his own "thing". For example the story of Daenerys in AGOT up until she loses Rhaego is quite obviously inspired from the life of Maragert Beaufort (Henry VII's mother).

At the time I thought it was GRRM saying: there will be no Henry VII in this fantasy re-telling of the Wars of the Roses, as Henry VII was aborted!

But then I was introduced to fAegon--and it all clicked for me.

I really need to read more classics and history! Very interesting.

[SerArthurHeath]

Because he comes out of nowhere in book 5.

Well, he was theorised by posters long before that you still be alive.

[Uldra I]

SerArthurHeath

Congrats on Clinical exams!!! :cheers:

[SerArthurHeath]

SerArthurHeath

Congrats on Clinical exams!!! :cheers:

Thanks, just got to come back from elective in one piece now :)

[Rhaegar Jaime Tyrell]

I can see a twist here.

Aegon will in fact be the real Aegon, but he will die before he gets the throne.

[Rhaegar Jaime Tyrell]

Knowing that GRRM is heavily inspired by the Wars of the Roses...

fAegon just has too many similarities to Henry VII for me not to consider him a son of a previously legitimized bastard line who has been raised all his life abroad to think himself the rightful ruler. The parallel is that obvious to me.

Jon Connington is easily an analogue for Jasper Tudor--the man who lived in exile with Henry VII and has raised him to be ready to take the throne.

However, while I draw parallels, I will say that GRRM, while he takes inspiration from history he does find ways to make it his own "thing". For example the story of Daenerys in AGOT up until she loses Rhaego is quite obviously inspired from the life of Maragert Beaufort (Henry VII's mother).

At the time I thought it was GRRM saying: there will be no Henry VII in this fantasy re-telling of the Wars of the Roses, as Henry VII was aborted!

But then I was introduced to fAegon--and it all clicked for me.

Good point.

But Dany is also similar to Cleopatra. I think Aegon is Henry 7 but will lose the battle of Bosworth.

[Rhaegar Jaime Tyrell]

I really need to read more classics and history! Very interesting.

There is a recent 3 episode BBC series on the planatagents. Very inetersting.

The Drama white queen is meant to be good, its the war of the roses. Starting with the victory and death of a robert/rhaeghar figure - who married for love, brothers fighting and the rise of henry 7.

[Urien the Ragged]

i think Robert is Henry VII. His claim descends from a woman, in this case his grandmother, while Henry's was from his mother, he claims descent from an ancient pre-conquest King. He ushers in a new dynasty, wresting it from a King widely thought to be crazy and evil. He was in hiding for most of the period leading up to the conquest, and let his followers do most of the campaigning for him. In Henry VII's case, his mother campaigned for him in England while he remained in exile in France.

Also, Tywin Lannister represents the Lord Stanley and Rhys ap Thomas, biding their time until switching sides at the actual battle of Bosworth field. One of Thomas's men, or Thomas himself, killed Richard in combat.

One of my favorite stories in British history is the story of John Howard, Duke of Norfolk. A resolute and honorable man, refused to desert his king. On the eve of the battle, he returned to his tent to find a mysterious note:

"Jack of Norfolk, be not too bold, for Dickon, thy master, is bought and sold."

Norfolk died on the battlefield.

[Urien the Ragged]

Knowing that GRRM is heavily inspired by the Wars of the Roses...

fAegon just has too many similarities to Henry VII for me not to consider him a son of a previously legitimized bastard line who has been raised all his life abroad to think himself the rightful ruler. The parallel is that obvious to me.

Jon Connington is easily an analogue for Jasper Tudor--the man who lived in exile with Henry VII and has raised him to be ready to take the throne.

However, while I draw parallels, I will say that GRRM, while he takes inspiration from history he does find ways to make it his own "thing". For example the story of Daenerys in AGOT up until she loses Rhaego is quite obviously inspired from the life of Maragert Beaufort (Henry VII's mother).

At the time I thought it was GRRM saying: there will be no Henry VII in this fantasy re-telling of the Wars of the Roses, as Henry VII was aborted!

But then I was introduced to fAegon--and it all clicked for me.

what was it about Margaret Beaufort, the fact that she was essentially raped and impregnated at 12 years old? lol

[SerArthurHeath]

i think Robert is Henry VII. His claim descends from a woman, in this case his grandmother, while Henry's was from his mother, he claims descent from an ancient pre-conquest King. He ushers in a new dynasty, wresting it from a King widely thought to be crazy and evil. He was in hiding for most of the period leading up to the conquest, and let his followers do most of the campaigning for him. In Henry VII's case, his mother campaigned for him in England while he remained in exile in France.

Also, Tywin Lannister represents the Lord Stanley and Rhys ap Thomas, biding their time until switching sides at the actual battle of Bosworth field. One of Thomas's men, or Thomas himself, killed Richard in combat.

One of my favorite stories in British history is the story of John Howard, Duke of Norfolk. A resolute and honorable man, refused to desert his king. On the eve of the battle, he returned to his tent to find a mysterious note:

"Jack of Norfolk, be not too bold, for Dickon, thy master, is bought and sold."

Norfolk died on the battlefield.

Lots of people can be inspiration for lots of different characters!

[Urien the Ragged]

not to mention that Orys Baratheon was essentially a legitimized bastard himself.

[Urien the Ragged]

Lots of people can be inspiration for lots of different characters!

definitely

[WhitewolfStark]

what was it about Margaret Beaufort, the fact that she was essentially raped and impregnated at 12 years old? lol

Not only that but essentially sold into a marriage to a situation where she's a fish out of water (an English woman amongst the Welsh) all the while convinced she was destined to give birth to the one true King of England because God had proclaimed it so. Those things also called out from Margaret's story in Daenerys'. Where it departed from Margaret's is when Rhaego got aborted.

Since then she's been playing an Empress Matilda role from The Anarchy period minus a Henry II son to back (though I do acknowledge that The Dance of Dragons was completely a retelling of the Anarchy in this world). But there are little call outs that strike me as having inspiration from Matilda: like insisting on keeping the title that she earned through marriage to her dead husband while she pursues her climb to the throne (Khaleesi), her increasing level of ruthlessness, etc.

A lot of the same things repeat over and over again in English history--a few times English history comes down to one woman seizing the throne or actively pursuing it in her son's name (Margaret Beaufort, Matilda, Isabella, etc.)

Some characters are direct omages to certain historical figures (Olenna Tyrell is a rocking version of Eleanor of Acquitaine in personality--spot on in fact). Others seem to mesh historical figures or draw certain inspirations here and there and put them in separate characters. Thus Robert Baratheon turns into an amalgamation of Edward IV & Henry VIII. Meanwhile the whole Jeyne Westerling plot for Robb is: What if Edward IV's secret marriage to Elizabeth Woodville not only backfired like it did in real life but cost him the way it would a Scotsman? Also Sybil Spicer marks me as an ironic twist to Jacquetta of Luxembourg--Elizabeth Woodville's own mother, only in this version of the tale, instead of helping her daughter, she sabotages her.

In a lot of ways GRRM does his own things, but at the same time it often feels like he has a big bag of historical knowledge written on little slips of paper and he pulls these papers out of the bag and plays mix and match at times.

And other times he may take two different aspects of the same historical figure and split it into two characters. The most obvious example:

Brienne of Tarth is an adaptation of the real way the French remember Jeanne D'Arc, while Melisandre is the English propaganda version of Jeanne D'Arc.

Bran and Rickon obviously draw inspiration from the Princes in the Tower in the whole ACOK book plot where they're thought to be killed but no one knows what actually happened to them, and I almost expect to see the Davos' subplot to find Rickon turn into a Perkin Warbeck scenario sooner rather than later.

Sansa plays the roles of Elizabeth of York (her general situation of being tossed back and forth as a potential future Queen to marry), Anne Neville (in her marriage to Tyrion, our Richard III--an author approved comparison given the Arya chapter outright has the mummers give the Tyrion character a speech which parodies Richard III's opening monologue), and her Vale love triangle between Petyr & Lysa is quite obviously a scene lifted from Elizabeth I's youth with Lysa playing Catherine Parr to Petyr's Seymour.

Lots of juicy bits of omages here and there if you know where to look for them.

[WhitewolfStark]

i think Robert is Henry VII. His claim descends from a woman, in this case his grandmother, while Henry's was from his mother, he claims descent from an ancient pre-conquest King. He ushers in a new dynasty, wresting it from a King widely thought to be crazy and evil. He was in hiding for most of the period leading up to the conquest, and let his followers do most of the campaigning for him. In Henry VII's case, his mother campaigned for him in England while he remained in exile in France.

Also, Tywin Lannister represents the Lord Stanley and Rhys ap Thomas, biding their time until switching sides at the actual battle of Bosworth field. One of Thomas's men, or Thomas himself, killed Richard in combat.

One of my favorite stories in British history is the story of John Howard, Duke of Norfolk. A resolute and honorable man, refused to desert his king. On the eve of the battle, he returned to his tent to find a mysterious note:

"Jack of Norfolk, be not too bold, for Dickon, thy master, is bought and sold."

Norfolk died on the battlefield.

There are two Stanleys: Walder Frey (he's the literal situation and invocation) & Tywin both. Stanley was called "The Late Lord Stanley" much like Walder Frey was.

Robert is not in personality anything like Henry VII--he's not the cautious, penny pinching, scrooge figure in his reign at all. He reigns much more like Edward IV (he too established a new dynasty with the rise of the House of York--and the Yorkists claimed being ahead of the Lancasters in acession through their grandmother who was the daughter of the royal line which descended from Edward III's second son, while the Lancasters were the third sons; this despite the Yorks themselves being descended in the male line from the fourth or fifth son) & and Henry VIII did (especially when it comes to extramarital affairs and fathering bastards all over the place; and Cersei getting bastards off her brother seems to be an ironic what if Anne Boleyn actually did do the things Henry VIII accused her of; though in situation in the overall story she's play a much more Margaret of Anjou & Joan of Kent-like role concerning her sons).

[JLE]

In Philippa Gregory's "The Other Boleyn Girl", Anne Boleyn *is* guilty of at least half the charges against her, and yes, that does include the incest with her brother (who is also portrayed as, at the very least, on the gay side of bisexual) - although the only child of hers that survives, Elizabeth, is very definitely King Henry VIII's, though opinions differ on whether she was legitimate or bastard depending on how legal the "annulment" of the marriage to Catherine of Aragon was.

(Henry might have actually saved himself a lot of bother, not by demanding to rule the Church in England, but by merely demanding that it did not rule *him*, and making laws to regulate circumstances in which a proper "divorce" - bringing a legal end to a legal marriage - would be allowed: the idea behind the laws being that the Church could declare divorce to be a *sin* for all it liked, but it had no right to declare it a *crime*, this being a matter for the law.

Unfortunately he didn't do this - he insisted on the first marriage being "annulled", declared as having never been legal (bastardizing his first daughter Mary), rather than having been legal but ended (which would have preserved Mary's legitimacy, while also allowing Elizabeth to be considered legitimate).

Of course, he subsequently named BOTH Mary and Elizabeth in the line of succession in his will: given that the circumstances allowed only one of them to be legitimate but it was debatable which one, this has to qualify as "formally adopting and legitimizing a bastard" even if nobody agreed on which one of the two was the legitimized bastard... (and he had previous form in the bastard-adopting stakes, having apparently been in the process of drumming up support for adopting his bastard son Henry Blount Fitzroy after Anne Boleyn's death and before Jane Seymour bore him a son - however Fitzroy died before it could happen.)

And Robert's neglectful, hedonistic, gluttonous rule is very much like the way Henry VIII ruled the kingdom after the death of Jane Seymour, the third wife who died in childbirth with his only legitimate son (later to be Edward VI).

[purake]

why do so many people dislike aegon anyways?

because unless hes blackfyre, it is a incredibly cheap and easy storyline... almost as bad as Robert Strong..ALMOST..k not nearly as bad...

[WhitewolfStark]

Not to get off subject too much:

In Philippa Gregory's "The Other Boleyn Girl", Anne Boleyn *is* guilty of at least half the charges against her, and yes, that does include the incest with her brother (who is also portrayed as, at the very least, on the gay side of bisexual) - although the only child of hers that survives, Elizabeth, is very definitely King Henry VIII's, though opinions differ on whether she was legitimate or bastard depending on how legal the "annulment" of the marriage to Catherine of Aragon was.

Philippa Gregory, while I find some of her work entertaining (to say the least), is hardly completely accurate. She has admited in interviews to purposely taking the rumors and wild speculations running around from the age she's portraying and portraying them as fact.

So often times reading her work is the equivalent of reading the 1480s or 1520s version of the tabloids. I'd be careful invoking her works, as they're highly entertaining pieces of fiction, but not much more too often.

Not that the official history isn't propaganda itself either, but in the end, I tend to go with Anne's own testimony rather than the rumor mill about her, while Henry VIII IMO was looking for a way out of a marriage that towards the end consisted of nothing but endless arguments & still-born sons, and wanted to do it quickly and cleanly after the messy divorce that Catherin of Aragon gave him. Add to it Anne's hot temper and impugnity, not to mention her knack for making enemies, and a few little lies and presto instant beheading... just add a sword.

[WhitewolfStark]

because unless hes blackfyre, it is a incredibly cheap and easy storyline... almost as bad as Robert Strong..ALMOST..k not nearly as bad...

If he's not a Blackfyre, then he's a Brightflame. Or maybe a conjoined line between the two? After all we're told the Male Blackfyre line died out thanks to Barry the Bold (implying that the female line might still be around), and we're told that Aerion Brightflame "I drink Wildfire to grow up to be a big and strong dragon" Targaryen left around an infant son in the 230s (a few years younger than Jon Arryn but a few years older than Barry the Bold), who all we're told was passed over in the succession--with nothing else mentioned about him. And the fact that both families were lurking in the Free Cities of Essos for all those years gives plenty of time to conspire and plot to bring down the Targs & then bring down the lords and reinstate the "Targs" under a Blackfyre/Brightflame child--their ultimate revenge against the Targs.

[purake]

i think if one thing can be said for certain its that aegon is NOT on the same side as Dany and Jon, or just Dany. He is most definitely part of varys/illerios plan. but then again, wasn't dany also part of their plan? they seemed to be pretty involved for the first two books, and then just sorta forgot about her it seems like