A Thread for Small Questions for ADwD IV

[poor_fellow]

Why did Rhaegar marry Elia of Dorne? I thought the bloodlines were supposed to be pure?

[Pliskin]

Why did Rhaegar marry Elia of Dorne? I thought the bloodlines were supposed to be pure?

Rhaegar didn't have any sister, at this time.

And the Martell were the closest, in terms of Targ blood. The Baratheons didn't have a daughter.

And Aerys wanted to upset Tywin.

[Jambottle Jeebus]

Hey peeps...

I've been hearing many theories on Jon Snows Demise at the end of aDwD....I'm on my second read through atm (almost finished aFfC)....

i am just posting cause i'm wondering ---> I seem to recall Melissandre doing some kind of magic trick to make one of the wildlings look like Manse when he was gonna get killed.... Is it possible she did the same thing for Jon??? Lord knows it would suck if he had died for real, or even if he did, it would suck if he ended up like Berric or Catelyn , all crazy and shit (corrct me if im wrong, It's ben a while since i read it)

[Fire Eater]

Hey peeps...

I've been hearing many theories on Jon Snows Demise at the end of aDwD....I'm on my second read through atm (almost finished aFfC)....

i am just posting cause i'm wondering ---> I seem to recall Melissandre doing some kind of magic trick to make one of the wildlings look like Manse when he was gonna get killed.... Is it possible she did the same thing for Jon??? Lord knows it would suck if he had died for real, or even if he did, it would suck if he ended up like Berric or Catelyn , all crazy and shit (corrct me if im wrong, It's ben a while since i read it)

We see the attack from Jon's POV, and not someone glamoured to look like Jon.

[Jambottle Jeebus]

so what your theory , ser?

[Fire Eater]

so what your theory , ser?

There are other threads for that. Jon was stabbed but GRRM hinted that Jon isn't dead.

[Nelapsi]

so what your theory , ser?

You can't hear somebody else's stream of consciousness in a specific POV's chapter. It's Jon's chapter, he feels the blades etc, hence it simply can't be that somebody else is taking the stabbings.

[the sword in the night]

A little change of pace but I believe it's appropriate for the small questions thread:

I tried to post a topic about the inconsistency concerning the kingsguard and trials by combat (ie the Mountain as Joff/Cersei's champion in SoS and then the necessity of a white cloak in the impending trials by combat for Cersei/Margery in aDwD/Winds) but it never made it to the board. My brother postulated that because Joff was dead and Cersei named his champion, the kingsguard rule didn't apply, but I'm not convinced. Further, Tyrion was part of the royal family as well, yet he also was not championed by the whitecloaks.....

Anyone have any thoughts on this matter? A simple omission or oversight? Or some explanation I am missing. Does Tywin's presence have something to do with it? Ie nobody questioned him once he okayed The Mountain.

Cheers

[poor_fellow]

A little change of pace but I believe it's appropriate for the small questions thread:

I tried to post a topic about the inconsistency concerning the kingsguard and trials by combat (ie the Mountain as Joff/Cersei's champion in SoS and then the necessity of a white cloak in the impending trials by combat for Cersei/Margery in aDwD/Winds) but it never made it to the board. My brother postulated that because Joff was dead and Cersei named his champion, the kingsguard rule didn't apply, but I'm not convinced. Further, Tyrion was part of the royal family as well, yet he also was not championed by the whitecloaks.....

Anyone have any thoughts on this matter? A simple omission or oversight? Or some explanation I am missing. Does Tywin's presence have something to do with it? Ie nobody questioned him once he okayed The Mountain.

Cheers

I think it's simply precedent, not a rule written in blood. Who better to fight for a royal's life than the men who guard them every day, the knights considered the best in the realm? Only Cersei made the mistake of insisting to the High Sparrow that the queen (Margaery) be defended by a whitecloak, knowing that the current members of the Kingsguard are feeble. Sparrow of course was just stringing her along, waiting to spring the trap that she's going to have to be defended by them. The Faith is handling Cersei's trial, and they make the rules.

But even if it is a strict rule, Joffrey was not on trial. I doubt that Tyrion is considered a member of the royal family. More likely he's offically considered second son of Casterly Rock. -and he joined the Second Sons!!!-

[corbon]

A little change of pace but I believe it's appropriate for the small questions thread:

I tried to post a topic about the inconsistency concerning the kingsguard and trials by combat (ie the Mountain as Joff/Cersei's champion in SoS and then the necessity of a white cloak in the impending trials by combat for Cersei/Margery in aDwD/Winds) but it never made it to the board. My brother postulated that because Joff was dead and Cersei named his champion, the kingsguard rule didn't apply, but I'm not convinced. Further, Tyrion was part of the royal family as well, yet he also was not championed by the whitecloaks.....

Anyone have any thoughts on this matter? A simple omission or oversight? Or some explanation I am missing. Does Tywin's presence have something to do with it? Ie nobody questioned him once he okayed The Mountain.

Cheers

There is no royal to defend. Tyrion is a Lannister, not a Baratheon.

The KG defend a royal, thats all.

[the sword in the night]

Ah!! Defending must be done by KG. Not prosecution ;) That makes sense I guess

[Jaime's golden hand]

I have 3 questions, I hope someone will help me with them. First off, I recall in ADWD a character mentions a pirate who declared himself the pirate king in the Stepstones, and he has "3-decked war galleys", larger than anything in the Iron Fleet. I wasn't certain who this was, if I simply didn't put the pieces together and I missed it, please fill me in. Was it Aurane Waters and his stolen dromonds? Or a previously unknown pirate king that may play an antagonist role to Victarion or Euron?

Also, before ADWD was released and before Game of Thrones the tv series, I was linked to a site where someone predicted alot of things about the series. R + L = J, Aegon is alive, Renly + Loras are gay, and several others. The Aegon is alive theory was spoilery for me because I guessed who Aegon was in ADWD as soon as we saw his dark blue eyes, all thanks to the site/thread. If anyone happens to know the site I'm talking about, let me know.

And finally, what's up with Oberyn magically thickening poison? Was this ever proven/disproven? Are any living Martells capable of this?

[Black Wolf Smith]

I have 3 questions, I hope someone will help me with them. First off, I recall in ADWD a character mentions a pirate who declared himself the pirate king in the Stepstones, and he has "3-decked war galleys", larger than anything in the Iron Fleet. I wasn't certain who this was, if I simply didn't put the pieces together and I missed it, please fill me in. Was it Aurane Waters and his stolen dromonds? Or a previously unknown pirate king that may play an antagonist role to Victarion or Euron?¹

Also, before ADWD was released and before Game of Thrones the tv series, I was linked to a site where someone predicted alot of things about the series. R + L = J, Aegon is alive, Renly + Loras are gay, and several others. The Aegon is alive theory was spoilery for me because I guessed who Aegon was in ADWD as soon as we saw his dark blue eyes, all thanks to the site/thread. If anyone happens to know the site I'm talking about, let me know.²

And finally, what's up with Oberyn magically thickening poison? Was this ever proven/disproven? Are any living Martells capable of this?³

1. You are not the only one with that theory that Aurane Waters is the pirate. IIRC he did take off with the biggest ship Westeros had ever made, but we just don't know.

2. Way too many sites out there. Here and Tower of the Hand are too of the biggest.

3. We do know that he had learned, and became a master of poisons, while in Essos. If you are asking if he really did it, we don't know. Did he teach any of the sandsnakes? He did teach some, but we don't know if anyone became a master like he was.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

3. We do know that he had learned, and became a master of poisons, while in Essos. If you are asking if he really did it, we don't know. Did he teach any of the sandsnakes? He did teach some, but we don't know if anyone became a master like he was.

While we don't know for sure whether any reached the same level of expertise, we can at least wager a good guess as to the who: Tyene Sand is the Sand Snake going to King's Landing as a "septa", and from the Arianne and Areo chapters, it seems she has dedicated her life to poisons and made that her thing.

Watch out for people in KL suddenly falling like flies.

[King's Ruin]

Greetings brethren!

I am just on my second reading of ADWD and I noticed something really cool...

On page 264 Reek loses exactly sixty-three Ironmen to Ramsay Bolton

On page 275 Jon recruits exactly sixty-three Wildlings to help out on the Wall

I'm sure it's just a minor detail but the expression is powerful and clear nonetheless: as one army's fortunes fall, another's rise.

[Jaime's golden hand]

1. You are not the only one with that theory that Aurane Waters is the pirate. IIRC he did take off with the biggest ship Westeros had ever made, but we just don't know.

2. Way too many sites out there. Here and Tower of the Hand are too of the biggest.

3. We do know that he had learned, and became a master of poisons, while in Essos. If you are asking if he really did it, we don't know. Did he teach any of the sandsnakes? He did teach some, but we don't know if anyone became a master like he was.

Hey, thanks for trying to answer my questions. I wasn't really theorizing that Aurane is the pirate king, just kind've inferring based on what I recall in the books. Sort've the way people infer that Euron captured Pyat Pree and his comrades as opposed to some random Qartheen warlocks. I find it interesting that the Greyjoy's may not be the 'supreme' strength on the seas. I mentioned this thinking there may be a dedicated theory around it, but as far as I know it hasn't got that much attention here. I personally can't even remember from what point in the novel this is mentioned, although I quickly skimmed the book looking and turned up nothing.

For #2 I guess there's not much hope of an answer. I thought that the Aegon is alive theory might have clued someone in to what I was talking about because I thought it was a unique theory, but for all I know that theory was all over the internet before ADWD, not unique at all.

For #3 yes that was my question (did he really use magic), sorry for being unclear. I always wonder what's really happening when magic is mentioned and not explained in this series.

[VaramyrSixchins]

Just so I'm clear; Cersei's charges are: regicide (Robert's murder) deicide (ordering the High Septon killed) incest (Lancel) and high treason (directing Osney to lie about Margaery), correct? Or am I wrong about the things in parenthesis?

[Fire Eater]

The incest charge is her sleeping with Jaime. The Faith has had nothing against cousins marrying, and wouldn't look down on cousins copulating. Her treason is killing the king, Robert, and cuckolding him.

[VaramyrSixchins]

I'm not so sure the incest charge is for sex w Jaime. When she and the High Septon discuss that topic, the HS indicates that he doesn't give it much credence bc it came from Stannis, fire god follower, enemy of the seven. There's also no indication the Faith is trying to bring Jaime to justice...

[LuisDantas]

Rhaegar didn't have any sister, at this time.

And the Martell were the closest, in terms of Targ blood. The Baratheons didn't have a daughter.

And Aerys wanted to upset Tywin.

Also, as we eventually learn, the insistence in keeping the "blood of the Dragon" pure isn't nearly universal among Targaryens, who are in fact a family of many and varied personality types.

They most certainly don't always marry in-family. Jaehaerys II, his grandfather, is said to have married for love, supposedly outside the family. So are his two brothers. His sister married a Baratheon and was the grandmother of Stannis, Renly and Robert by the father's side (so they are all one-fourth Targaryen).

We also know that the second Targaryen King, Maegor I, had several wives and killed most for not producing him an heir. One of them was Jeyne Westerling, who was at most half-Targaryen, and most likely had no Targaryen blood at all.

The fourth Targaryen King was Viserys I, who married twice - once to an Arryn, then to a Hightower.

One of Aegon III's two wives was a Targaryen, but the other was a Velaryon - which, granted, is known to be a fairly close genetic match to the Targaryens.

More recently, Daeron II married a Martell, and to this day Dorne and House Martell take a lot of pride of their ties to the Targaryens.

The Martell typical phenotype is in no way similar to the Targaryen one, and it shows in their offspring, most notably Baelor Breakspear, who could easily pass for a Martell with no Targaryen blood at all. All the same, Baelor was very well-liked and respected both inside and outside his House, and would most likely have inherited the Iron Throne without objections to his bloodline.

So, while there are Targaryens who care a lot about the "purity" of their "bloodline", many others clearly do not, several Kings among them.