A Thread for Small Questions for ADwD IV

[Corm]

I don't know about anything else but I agree with Apple Martini when she says that the fact that the KG were in the Tower of Joy, protecting Lyanna and whoever else was there is a very convincing argument that Jon is legitimate (if he was in the tower).

To condense the argument they claim to be upholding their vows which would mean, above all else, protecting the King. Therefore, the only reason they are not with Viserys (there doesn't seem to be any reason for them to lie about the vows) is that he is not the rightful king.

[It Rhymes With Meek]

We're going to have to agree to disagree. It's plain as day to me but to you apparently it isn't. If you're not convinced now you're not going to be until Martin spoonfeeds it. Stalemate.

I don't especially mind the rude condescension, but I can't help but notice that you didn't address the point that you apparently think both (1) Kingsguard members can use their discretion and don't always go by the book and (2) Kingsguard members never use discretion and always go by the book.

[Corm]

This is a main reason why I don't think your reasoning in itself is strong evidence that Jon is legitimate. On the one hand you have the KG technically breaking their vows but asking "forgiveness rather than permission" to follow Rhaegar in the first place, and on the other hand you insist that it is 100% impossible that they would have done the same to defend Rhaegar's son by his beloved.

To repeat, I think it's possible that Jon is legitimate -- I just don't think this argument is very good evidence for that position.

I don't see how they're technically breaking their vows. They take orders from Rhaegar, he sent them to the ToJ. They receive no conflicting orders from Aerys so therefore they have not broken any vows. They stay there because they have no conflicting orders at first and, after Rhaegar and Aerys are killed, they continue to stay because Jon (or whoever the baby is) is the rightful heir to the throne. They insist that they didn't break any vows and aren't about to start doing so now. This suggests that they stay and protect the tower because doing so helps protect the rightful heir, otherwise they would be off protecting Viserys.

[Lebronn Jaime]

'A Thread for Small Questions'. If someone asks a question with an answer that isn't already "spoonfed" or confirmed by Martin, then you need to direct them to a discussion thread and let this thread move on. There's a huge series on R+L=J as it is, and multiple threads about the ToJ. Take the circular arguments there, please.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't especially mind the rude condescension, but I can't help but notice that you didn't address the point that you apparently think both (1) Kingsguard members can use their discretion and don't always go by the book and (2) Kingsguard members never use discretion and always go by the book.

I said that if the Kingsguard were in a position to receive an order from Aerys, they'd have to follow it. As Rhaegar was a member of the royal family, they took orders from him, orders that put them out of touch with Aerys and prevented them from being able to receive orders that would override Rhaegar's. It's not that they willfully disobeyed Aerys' orders, it's that Rhaegar put them in a position where they would be unable to receive them.

In any case, however they treated the Aerys-Rhaegar hierarchy, it was of zero consequence when Ned arrived, because Aerys and Rhaegar (and Aegon) were dead.

Honestly I'm sick of making the same points over and over. The R+L=J threads in the general board discuss this in pretty great detail, you can check them out if it bothers you that much.

[King Doug]

I'm gonna have to back up Apple Martini here.

The fact that the 3 KG members were guarding Jon and not Viserys is sufficient evidence to prove that Jon was the rightful king after the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon. It is plausible to think that maybe Arthur Dayne was holding true to his friendship before his vows because Rhaegar and Dayne were such good friends.

The thing that convinced me they were their fulfilling their KG duties was Hightower's presence at the TOJ. Hightower was the Lord Commander of the KG. He, of all the KG, would have take his oath the most seriously and only protected the true king. Just as Selmy followed Joffrey's orders to disregard Roberts posthumous command to make Ned regent.

[Kuther2000]

I wondering what is the distance between King's Landing and the Trident. Also I have to wonder when did the Kingsguard find out that Rhaegar was defeated at the Trident. I would have to guess that if they were really married then the Kingsguard didn't receive news of the outcome at Trident Battle and the Sack of King's Landing until it was too late. Because as soon as they had found out that the crown prince died at the Trident. They should have been heading back to King's Landing as fast as they could since the crown prince's orders didn't matter anymore and the true king needed to be protected.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I wondering what is the distance between King's Landing and the Trident. Also I have to wonder when did the Kingsguard find out that Rhaegar was defeated at the Trident. I would have to guess that if they were really married then the Kingsguard didn't receive news of the outcome at Trident Battle and the Sack of King's Landing until it was too late. Because as soon as they had found out that the crown prince died at the Trident. They should have been heading back to King's Landing as fast as they could since the crown prince's orders didn't matter anymore and the true king needed to be protected.

I'm under the impression that the Sack occurred pretty shortly after the Battle of the Trident. As soon as Tywin heard about Robert's victory, he descended on King's Landing with his forces. Entirely possible, given the chaos and the isolation of the Tower, that the Kingsguard didn't learn about either Rhaegar's death or the Sack until after both had already happened, or were otherwise clued in that a move to the capital was impossible. Ned arrives at the Tower a few weeks after the Sack, and by that time the men would have learned what all had happened.

[Ser Polonog]

Read back over the last thread here.

The last issue raised

was answered with

I don't think they're related, but they are technically 'brothers' due to their time in the Nights Watch.

[King Doug]

Anyone know approximately how much time has passed from the beginning of AGOT to the end of ADWD? I'm guessing a few years but I don't remember any ages being mentioned. I know Jon Snow was 14 at the time Ned Stark died but now.....not sure.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Anyone know approximately how much time has passed from the beginning of AGOT to the end of ADWD? I'm guessing a few years but I don't remember any ages being mentioned. I know Jon Snow was 14 at the time Ned Stark died but now.....not sure.

I think it's meant to be about two and a half-ish years. Game of Thrones takes place largely in 298 AL and Dance With Dragons takes place in 300 AL.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Anyone know approximately how much time has passed from the beginning of AGOT to the end of ADWD? I'm guessing a few years but I don't remember any ages being mentioned. I know Jon Snow was 14 at the time Ned Stark died but now.....not sure.

This fantastic timeline by Errant Bard covers AGOT-AFFC, and there are some additions by voodooquen126 to include ADWD on page 4.

[King Doug]

This fantastic timeline by Errant Bard covers AGOT-AFFC, and there are some additions by voodooquen126 to include ADWD on page 4.

Damn, good stuff

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

Read back over the last thread here.

The last issue raised

was answered with

Mance was a wilding captured as a child by the NW and raised as one of their own. It doesnt say anywhere in the books that Mance's father was a Black Brother IIRC. Craster, however, is the son of a Brother of the NW, as revealed in ASoS (I think by Gilly). There's nothing, however, to suggest that Mance and Craster are brothers. As for Mance disliking Craster--all the wildings seem to dislike and mistrust the man-- with good reason. And I dont remember Mance ever actually speaking specifically of his hatred for Craster, although Craster does mention Mance a few times, in disdain, saying that his (Craster's) roots are deep, and being a wildling a free man, doesnt have any need of a king.

But i dont think there is anything in the books to suggest that they are brothers, or even related.

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

Read back over the last thread here.

Quote

I have been reading the hersey threads and I came across something I did not quite get. Are Mance and Craster brothers? Who are there parents? I remember reading that Craster was fathered by a man in the Watch or was that Mance...

was answered with

Mance was a wilding captured as a child by the NW and raised as one of their own. It doesnt say anywhere in the books that Mance's father was a Black Brother IIRC. Craster, however, is the son of a Brother of the NW, as revealed in ASoS (I think by Gilly). There's nothing, however, to suggest that Mance and Craster are brothers. As for Mance disliking Craster--all the wildings seem to dislike and mistrust the man-- with good reason. And I dont remember Mance ever actually speaking specifically of his hatred for Craster, although Craster does mention Mance a few times, in disdain, saying that his (Craster's) roots are deep, and being a wildling a free man, doesnt have any need of a king.

But i dont think there is anything in the books to suggest that they are brothers, or even related.

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

In book 3 of the tales of dunk and egg (and in the preceeding two) a few things are revealed about Martyn Rivers, aka Bloodraven, the Hand of the King after the Blackfyre Rebeliion is won and king (Dareon?) sits the iron throne.

Later, in AFfC, while Measter Aemon is dying and speaking to Sam, sometimes in fever dreams, sometimes lucidly, he reveals that when his little brother Aegon (Egg) ascended to the throne, Aemon went to the wall, along with the dregs of the Red Keep's dungeons (who Egg playfully referred to as Aemon's "honor gaurd," and also Bloodraven, "Brynden Rivers himself", who was later selected to be Lord Commander of the NW.

A few questions about all this:

Why did Bloodraven keep his bastard name Rivers after he had been legitimized along with all Aegon the Unworthy's other bastards? (I know this quesiton has been asked already but it leads directly into my next question):

Being a bastard of Aegon the Unworthy, why did he choose to fight on the side of the trueborn Targs, and not with the legitimized bastards, highborn and low, who fought for Daemon in the Blackfyre Rebellion?

Bloodraven was Hand when Egg was still a boy of ten squiring for Ser Duncan and Prince Maekar was "sulking" at Summerhall-- what happened between that time and when Egg ascended the throne that had Bloodraven banished to the Wall?

Why did Aemon go too? I know he didnt want to be at court because he believed he'd be used by those who would want to gain power, but he could have left court to serve at any other castle in the seven kingdoms. Why choose the Wall? Alleras seems to think that the Archmaesters of the Citadel packed him away to the Wall becuase they didnt trust his "dragon blood" (AFfC) But the way Aemon puts it, he chose to serve at Castle Black?

The last-- and most important-- question i have is how Bloodraven came to be what he is today-- half man/half weirwood, living at the ends of the earth in the vast north beyond the Wall? LCs serve for life--so what brought him there? Was he aware of some old magic that would keep him alive forvever, and is that how he became what he became? What does he care about the fate of Bran Stark? What are the Starks to him? He's a Targ and a southerner? Ive heard it said that southerners cannot harness the magic of the old gods, and this whole situation just baffles me. The man he was doesnt seem to line up with the Bloodraven we know through Bran's POVs at all...

Many questions I know, and I dont know if all of them are even answerable with the info we've been given from GRRM and the books. I would welcome any responses, answers or links.

Thanks.

[Unbowed Unbent Unbroken]

Who was the Westerosi man with the broken nose who Arya found dead in front of the Stranger in the House of Black and White?

We got a lot of detail on his appearance, as if he may have been a character from earlier in the series. Does anyone know who he was supposed to be?

[SelanSnow]

Who were the men of the Night's Watch that Coldhands killed (and Summer ate)?

[Vincent]

Benjen Stark dead or not? Theories regarding this also welcome :drunk:

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

Benjen Stark dead or not? Theories regarding this also welcome :drunk:

I think Benjen Stark is Coldhands. The only two possible answers regarding his fate is that he's dead (burned, buried, or returned as a wight), or still alive, which i only see as being possible if he is, indeed, Coldhands.

This would also explain his concern for Bran's still being alive being kept a secret; Bran being his nephew.

It is interesting, though, that if Ben had not joined the Watch-- knowing as he did that he would never have any claim over winterfell with 3 elder siblings-- he could have played a vital part in the fate of Winterfell, with Brandon, Lyanna, and Ned all dead, as well as Ned's eldest son, and, as far as those in the seven kingdoms know, so are bran, rickon, arya, and sansa.

Even before Theon came, Benjen could have helped bran defend winterfell against the ironmen and other enemies while robb was at war in the south. Just as the Blackfish helped Edmure, Cat, and Robb when his elder brother Hoster lay dying.