Robb´s plan after Red Wedding

[Xtopher]

DId anyone else think that Robb´s plan after the red wedding, to siege Moat Cailin through Greywater Watch, was genious?

When i read that, i was like "yeahhhh, Moat Cailin should definitely be the place to win!" its right in the neck and its the only way to the north and no one will expect Robb to go through the swamps and take the place by susprise from the north. He would have destroyed the ironmen army and in the process making the other castles they had taken to be at least scared.

Also, i was really looking forward to read about those swamps and the ever-moving Greywater watch and its people.

[Manberg900]

Yeah it was a great plan and he was going to succeed too if it weren't for the bullshit that happened. I suppose the Red Wedding was the only way Robb could lose. He was never going to lose in the field.

[Ramsay Gimp]

DId anyone else think that Robb´s plan after the red wedding, to siege Moat Cailin through Greywater Watch, was genious?

When i read that, i was like "yeahhhh, Moat Cailin should definitely be the place to win!" its right in the neck and its the only way to the north and no one will expect Robb to go through the swamps and take the place by susprise from the north. He would have destroyed the ironmen army and in the process making the other castles they had taken to be at least scared.

Also, i was really looking forward to read about those swamps and the ever-moving Greywater watch and its people.

It was a good plan, I agree. But at that point he should have already made his peace with the Lannisters. "With peace comes pardons" as Roose Bolton remarks, and that would free him up to focus exclusively on the Greyjoy enemy. He was never going to be able to "win" a two-front war. Even if he retook the North, the Lannisters/Tyrells would smash the remaining Tully forces and secure the Riverlands, leaving Robb bottled up.

[Drowsey Dragon]

I am not convinced the war was lost for Robb and the North, but sadly we will never know. The plan was a good one, just like luring away Tywins host from Harenthal which would have enabled Stannis victory at KL if Tully did not screw it up, and then everything would have been different. It just was not meant to be.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I am not convinced the war was lost for Robb and the North, but sadly we will never know. The plan was a good one, just like luring away Tywins host from Harenthal which would have enabled Stannis victory at KL if Tully did not screw it up, and then everything would have been different. It just was not meant to be.

Oh, this again. I'll come out and say it: Edmure did nothing wrong

[Drowsey Dragon]

Oh, this again. I'll come out and say it: Edmure did nothing wrong

He was given an order by his King. How is that not doing something wrong? He was told to stay put and he didn't and look what it led to - Stannis getting crushed in KL by Tywin who would have had no way of aiding KL if he was lured out like Robb intended.

[Ramsay Gimp]

He was given an order by his King. How is that not doing something wrong? He was told to stay put and he didn't and look what it led to - Stannis getting crushed in KL by Tywin who would have had no way of aiding KL if he was lured out like Robb intended.

1. He was told to "hold Riverrun", which he did. He wasn't told to "stay put and let the enemy cross" which would have been much more clear

2. Even if Tywin wasn't able to reach King's Landing in time, what about the Tyrells? They made up the majority of the troops that smashed Stannis at the Blackwater anyway, and there was nothing stopping them from marching to King's Landing without the Lannisters. The marrriage contract to Joff was arranged by LF, not Tywin

3. Look at it from Edmure's POV. Your liege is in enemy territory, ravaging enemy lands and seizing castles. But he only has about 6,000 or so men, mostly cavalry. Here comes our most dangerous enemy with 15,000-20,000 men. I would have moved to defend Robb's rear as well, rather than let Tywin cross and possibly smash Robb's army. This was Lannister's home turf after all- he would know the land.

4. Robb's supposed plan doesn't really make sense. Why was he so sure that he would beat Tywin's superior numbers?

[Drowsey Dragon]

1. He was told to "hold Riverrun", which he did. He wasn't told to "stay put and let the enemy cross" which would have been much more clear

2. Even if Tywin wasn't able to reach King's Landing in time, what about the Tyrells? They made up the majority of the troops that smashed Stannis at the Blackwater anyway, and there was nothing stopping them from marching to King's Landing without the Lannisters. The marrriage contract to Joff was arranged by LF, not Tywin

3. Look at it from Edmure's POV. Your liege is in enemy territory, ravaging enemy lands and seizing castles. But he only has about 6,000 or so men, mostly cavalry. Here comes our most dangerous enemy with 15,000-20,000 men. I would have moved to defend Robb's rear as well, rather than let Tywin cross and possibly smash Robb's army. This was Lannister's home turf after all- he would know the land.

4. Robb's supposed plan doesn't really make sense. Why was he so sure that he would beat Tywin's superior numbers?

1."Cat," he said unhappily, "Lord Tywin is coming-"

"He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety."

"This is Tully land," Edmure declared. "If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson."

He was told to defend Riverrun, not teach Tywin a lesson. He should have let him pass like Robb wanted.

2. The imp made it clear the tide turned when Stannis was routed by Tywin. Against just the Tyrells I would bet on Stannis.

3. This is your opinion, but not what Edmure was told to do by Robb. Robb was in no danger of being smashed by Tywin in the rear.

4. I dont have time to find the quote at the moment, but he tells Edmure they had the high ground or an effective ambush point and would have bled Tywin. Edmure relizes then how badly he screwed up at that moment.

[Crown]

1."Cat," he said unhappily, "Lord Tywin is coming-"

"He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety."

"This is Tully land," Edmure declared. "If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson."

He was told to defend Riverrun, not teach Tywin a lesson. He should have let him pass like Robb wanted.

2. The imp made it clear the tide turned when Stannis was routed by Tywin. Against just the Tyrells I would bet on Stannis.

3. This is your opinion, but not what Edmure was told to do by Robb. Robb was in no danger of being smashed by Tywin in the rear.

4. I dont have time to find the quote at the moment, but he tells Edmure they had the high ground or an effective ambush point and would have bled Tywin. Edmure relizes then how badly he screwed up at that moment.

If Robb just told Edmure about the plan we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

[Drowsey Dragon]

If Robb just told Edmure about the plan we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

Why should he have to. He gave a command. The Blackfish makes clear it was a bone-headed decision.

Here is the exact quote.

"I think we’ve all heard sufficient of your boasting, Nephew."

Edmure was taken aback. "Boasting? What do you mean?"

"I mean," said the Blackfish, "that you owe His Grace your thanks for his forbearance. He played out that mummer’s farce in the Great Hall so as not to shame you before your own people. Had it been me I would have flayed you for your stupidity rather than praising this folly of the fords."

"Good men died to defend those fords, Uncle." Edmure sounded outraged. "What, is no one to win victories but the Young Wolf? Did I steal some glory meant for you, Robb?"

"Your Grace," Robb corrected, icy. "You took me for your king, Uncle or have you forgotten that as well?"

The Blackfish said, "You were commanded to hold Riverrun, Edmure, no more."

"I held Riverrun, and I bloodied Lord Tywin’s nose."

"So you did," said Robb. "But a bloody nose won’t win the war, will it? Did you ever think to ask yourself why we remained in the west so long after Oxcross? You knew I did not have enough men to threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock."

"Why... there were other castles... gold, cattle..."

"You think we stayed for plunder?" Robb was incredulous. "Uncle, I wanted Lord Tywin to come west."

"We were all horsed," Ser Brynden said. "The Lannister host was mainly foot. We planned to run Lord Tywin a merry chase up and down the coast, then slip behind him to take up a strong defensive position athwart the gold road, at a place my scouts had found where the ground would have been greatly in our favor. If he had come at us there, he would have paid a grievous price. But if he did not attack, he would have been trapped in the west, a thousand leagues from where he needed to be. All the while we would have lived off his land, instead of him living off ours."

"Lord Stannis was about to fall upon King’s Landing," Robb said. "He might have rid us of Joffrey, the queen, and the Imp in one red stroke. Then we might have been able to make a peace."

Edmure looked from uncle to nephew. "You never told me."

"I told you to hold Riverrun," said Robb. "What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?"

"When you stopped Lord Tywin on the Red Fork," said the Blackfish, "you delayed him just long enough for riders out of Bitterbridge to reach him with word of what was happening to the east. Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler’s Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day’s ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear."

[Crown]

Why should he have to. He gave a command. The Blackfish makes clear it was a bone-headed decision.

Here is the exact quote.

"I think we’ve all heard sufficient of your boasting, Nephew."

Edmure was taken aback. "Boasting? What do you mean?"

"I mean," said the Blackfish, "that you owe His Grace your thanks for his forbearance. He played out that mummer’s farce in the Great Hall so as not to shame you before your own people. Had it been me I would have flayed you for your stupidity rather than praising this folly of the fords."

"Good men died to defend those fords, Uncle." Edmure sounded outraged. "What, is no one to win victories but the Young Wolf? Did I steal some glory meant for you, Robb?"

"Your Grace," Robb corrected, icy. "You took me for your king, Uncle or have you forgotten that as well?"

The Blackfish said, "You were commanded to hold Riverrun, Edmure, no more."

"I held Riverrun, and I bloodied Lord Tywin’s nose."

"So you did," said Robb. "But a bloody nose won’t win the war, will it? Did you ever think to ask yourself why we remained in the west so long after Oxcross? You knew I did not have enough men to threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock."

"Why... there were other castles... gold, cattle..."

"You think we stayed for plunder?" Robb was incredulous. "Uncle, I wanted Lord Tywin to come west."

"We were all horsed," Ser Brynden said. "The Lannister host was mainly foot. We planned to run Lord Tywin a merry chase up and down the coast, then slip behind him to take up a strong defensive position athwart the gold road, at a place my scouts had found where the ground would have been greatly in our favor. If he had come at us there, he would have paid a grievous price. But if he did not attack, he would have been trapped in the west, a thousand leagues from where he needed to be. All the while we would have lived off his land, instead of him living off ours."

"Lord Stannis was about to fall upon King’s Landing," Robb said. "He might have rid us of Joffrey, the queen, and the Imp in one red stroke. Then we might have been able to make a peace."

Edmure looked from uncle to nephew. "You never told me."

"I told you to hold Riverrun," said Robb. "What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?"

"When you stopped Lord Tywin on the Red Fork," said the Blackfish, "you delayed him just long enough for riders out of Bitterbridge to reach him with word of what was happening to the east. Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler’s Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day’s ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear."

Alright, you are right. It was indeed a specific command.

[The hairy bear]

The Blackfish said, "You were commanded to hold Riverrun, Edmure, no more."

And that's the problem, isn't it? They told him no more than "hold Riverrun", which in an ambiguous command that can be interpreted in multiple ways.

Edmure looked from uncle to nephew. "You never told me."

"I told you to hold Riverrun," said Robb. "What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?"

The part that Robb failed to say. They would not be having this discussion if he had been ordered to "hold Riverrun and allow Lord Tywin to come to us in superior numbers". At the end, the thing is that they (1) didn't though that Edmure would show initiative and (2) didn't consider him important enough to share their plans with him. It's Edmure who should be angry at them, and not otherwise.

[livewyre]

Even though it isn't explicitly stated, I think Robb And the Blackfish finalized their plans in the field. There was no way to communicate to Edmure what the exact plan was, but they thought since Edmure was told to hold Riverrun that is what they expected of him. Edmure's pride was damaged after being captured by Jamie and he was looking for redemption.

I also blame put a little Blame on Edmure for the RW, because he took it on himself to remove the northern banner men from the twins and send them to Harrenhall. Had they stayed they wouldn't have been router in the field by Gregor and might have been in better position to detect and treachery by Walder Frey.

But that too was just Edmure making his own decisions instead of following orders.

[m_k]

It is impossible to discuss every battle plane with everybody. Its not a single case of Edmure. Robb has over 100 (?) of his lord and captain, he does not need to tell everyone every bit of his little plane he just need to tell who will be playing which part in his battle. That's why there is a simple rule, in battle you have to obey and follow command nothing more nothing less.

[Xtopher]

soooo... Greywater Watch anyone? lol.

i share the same thought in that Edmure´s pride turned the war in favor of the Lannisters, but surely it wasnt completely his fault. I think Robb finished the job in the instant he married Jeyne Westerling. An immature decision, driven by the so-called "Stark honor", the same honor that caused his father´s death. It ultimately was his fault and his only.

[WinterfellWoman]

To get back on topic:

I also was looking forward to finally seeing the people of the Greywater Watch. Since we first met Meera and Jojen and they became a part of the story I've been waiting for the opportunity to see more of their people. Like you, when I heard of Robb's plan I thought "Finally!" Then, of course, the Red Wedding happened, and a little part of me died. Not only do we have to wait and hope for a chance to meet the Greywater Watch, I was really rooting for Robb to come out on top. Oh well, hopefully GRRM makes up for this later.

[Ramsay Gimp]

1."Cat," he said unhappily, "Lord Tywin is coming-"

"He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety."

"This is Tully land," Edmure declared. "If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson."

He was told to defend Riverrun, not teach Tywin a lesson. He should have let him pass like Robb wanted.

2. The imp made it clear the tide turned when Stannis was routed by Tywin. Against just the Tyrells I would bet on Stannis.

3. This is your opinion, but not what Edmure was told to do by Robb. Robb was in no danger of being smashed by Tywin in the rear.

4. I dont have time to find the quote at the moment, but he tells Edmure they had the high ground or an effective ambush point and would have bled Tywin. Edmure relizes then how badly he screwed up at that moment.

Did Cat say "no, you were told to stay put, brother"? No, she didn't. Edmure followed his orders but just took some extra initiative, which he had a right to do in his own territory

The wildfire decimated Stannis' army. He would have only had about 10,000 troops or so by the time the Tyrells showed up, and the result would have been the same.

[Ramsay Gimp]

It is impossible to discuss every battle plane with everybody. Its not a single case of Edmure. Robb has over 100 (?) of his lord and captain, he does not need to tell everyone every bit of his little plane he just need to tell who will be playing which part in his battle. That's why there is a simple rule, in battle you have to obey and follow command nothing more nothing less.

Edmure wasn't just some nobody. He was the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands - Robb's most important bannerman. Not letting him in on this supposed plan was both insulting and stupid. A good commander makes his orders crystal clear - if there is ambiguity, as this very thread proves, then it is the commander's fault if things don't go according to plan

Someone on the other forum suggested that BF and Robb know that they share the blame, but actually laid it all on Edmure to convince him to marry a Frey as "amends." Not sure if I buy that, but it would make more sense than the supposed great General Robb not communicating his plan

[Nymeria's pup]

I really thought his plan was great. I thought it even better the second time I read the book and even caugh myself thinking "Oh wow, this is going to be a great strategy." Then of course I remembered the Red Wedding and almost cried! I really want to see Greywater Watch. I hope we do in the next book. I think Robb's plan could have worked, but we will never know...boo.

[Ramsay Gimp]

After this I'm done, I promise. The whole Edmure-blaming just pisses me off for some reason. I started a thread about it a while ago and was pleasantly surprised that most people agreed with my assesment