SummerGhostofNymeria Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 soooo... Greywater Watch anyone? lol.i share the same thought in that Edmure´s pride turned the war in favor of the Lannisters, but surely it wasnt completely his fault. I think Robb finished the job in the instant he married Jeyne Westerling. An immature decision, driven by the so-called "Stark honor", the same honor that caused his father´s death. It ultimately was his fault and his only.Before I get on the topic of Greywater Watch shenanigans let's discuss this Robb/Edmure/RW thing...Sure, Edmure made a stupid decision and all, I'm not saying he didn't... HOWEVER, Robb pretty much sealed his fate with Jeyne Westerling. It's true. We all knew it. I just think people don't want to blame Robb because he's a Stark and most of us (usually) are rooting for the honorable dude/family. I love the Starks, I loved Robb, but he made a ridiculous decision in Jeyne. I don't even think it was the honorable thing to do. The honorable thing to do would have been to leave that stupid girl alone and focus on the important things. If, after the war, the girl is around and he's not married after all... have at it! He had made a promise with the Frey's of whom, he'd been warned before, were not to be crossed.That being said, MANY things played contributing factors, but in the end the one decision that got the ball rolling, and assured Robb's fate was THAT decision alone. I sincerely thing that even without all of the other small issues the Frey's would have eventually found a way to retaliate for being wronged.With that being said: GREYWATER WATCH! I was extremely excited. I'm a bit fascinated by their whole... way of living (?) I guess you could put it. I wanted to learn more about them, see them, etc... I'm disappointed that I didn't get to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtopher Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 I want to see the frog-eaters dammit!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SummerGhostofNymeria Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I want to see the frog-eaters dammit!!!RIGHT?! I concur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowsey Dragon Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Edmure wasn't just some nobody. He was the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands - Robb's most important bannerman. Not letting him in on this supposed plan was both insulting and stupid. A good commander makes his orders crystal clear - if there is ambiguity, as this very thread proves, then it is the commander's fault if things don't go according to planSomeone on the other forum suggested that BF and Robb know that they share the blame, but actually laid it all on Edmure to convince him to marry a Frey as "amends." Not sure if I buy that, but it would make more sense than the supposed great General Robb not communicating his planGimp please explain how this is ambigious:I told you to hold Riverrun," said Robb. "What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Gimp please explain how this is ambigious:I told you to hold Riverrun," said Robb. "What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?" He held Riverrun, what part of that do you not comprehend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowsey Dragon Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 He held Riverrun, what part of that do you not comprehend?Yes he did, but he did not need to = "This is Tully land," Edmure declared. "If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson." This you refuse to accept. He should have listend to Cat:"He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety." He was told to defend Riverrun, not teach Tywin a lesson. He should have let him pass like Robb commanded. Nothing ambigious about what it means to hold riverrun. It means defend it if attacked, not go out looking to attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtopher Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 Here we go again...You know... it might be a bad idea to take conversations literally from the book to make your point. Maybe Robb said it differently when it actually happened and George R.R. Martin just didnt remember it exactly as it happened and wrote it inaccurately.Just like you cant trust the bible literally cause the guys who wrote it may be remembering things wrong.Now how does it feel to read crazy talk? :ack: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowsey Dragon Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Here we go again...You know... it might be a bad idea to take conversations literally from the book to make your point. Maybe Robb said it differently when it actually happened and George R.R. Martin just didnt remember it exactly as it happened and wrote it inaccurately.Just like you cant trust the bible literally cause the guys who wrote it may be remembering things wrong.Now how does it feel to read crazy talk? :ack:What could be better than quoting from the horses mouth :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I want to see the frog-eaters dammit!!!This mad me think of something, since we're talking hypothetical plans. When Theon takes Winterfell in ACOK, the Reed children are living there as wards. If he had possessed the good sense to just sack the castle and take them as hostages along with the little Walder Freys and Bran/Rickon, Robb's path North would be much harder. We know Howland Reed is loyal to the Starks, but is he loyal enough to help Robb come North if his children are in Greyjoy hands?Of course, for that to work Theon would have to get the message "I have your kids" to Greywater watch, where ravens can't fly.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtopher Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 are you sure the Reeds were living in Winterfell?Weren´t they just visiting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Either way they were there at the time, since they escaped with Bran. Maester Luwin introduces them to theon IIRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowsey Dragon Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 This mad me think of something, since we're talking hypothetical plans. When Theon takes Winterfell in ACOK, the Reed children are living there as wards. If he had possessed the good sense to just sack the castle and take them as hostages along with the little Walder Freys and Bran/Rickon, Robb's path North would be much harder. We know Howland Reed is loyal to the Starks, but is he loyal enough to help Robb come North if his children are in Greyjoy hands?Of course, for that to work Theon would have to get the message "I have your kids" to Greywater watch, where ravens can't fly....It is hard to believe Theon did not take them all hostage. There was not point to hold Winterfell. It could not be done long term and with the hostages he would have been in such a powerful position. Theon did care for Bran and Rikkon, perhaps he felt they would come to harm once he got them to the Iron Islands, I don't know.As for the Reeds, I am sure word would spread to their father that they were captives. How that would effect the Reeds helping Robb is impossible to say since we know so very little about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtopher Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Maybe Theon didnt even know the Reeds were children of the Greeywater Watch lord, and thats why he didnt think about taking them as hostages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowsey Dragon Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Maybe Theon didnt even know the Reeds were children of the Greeywater Watch lord, and thats why he didnt think about taking them as hostages.I think you may be right and he never knew who they were. They came to Winterfell long after Theon left with Rob. He also never even considered the idea of taking Bran and Rikkon as hostages. Theons motive seemed to be to gain glory in his fathers eyes and he felt holding Winterfell was the best way to acheive this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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