Walkind Dead Season 2 (continued)

[paddington]

That would make for one dull ZA. Zombies look more and more like a walking range target, I guess the only way to work it, so it would be more convincing would be if the intial virus was airbourne. With a high infection rate, which killed the victim fast, and revived them fast. An the only people left are those with some form of immunity.

[Spring Bass]

First, let's say you managed to mass a million zombies in one group, presumably by sending out a flash mob text or something, because the idea of unintelligent zombies massing seems pretty dodgy to begin with.

I'm not so sure about that. WWZ had a good idea on how that might happen, with the zombies forming giant "chain" swarms in response to each other and any major noise/food in the area.

I mean, look at how they find "food": noise, smell, and very bad eye-sight. You could have a swarm forming because individual zombies are drawn to each other by their noise and the sight of each other moving around, until they get close enough to smell that these other zombies aren't food. At which point, they start wandering away until they can't smell the other zombies - and get drawn back in again for the same reasons. Repeat over and over again because they're mindless with no memory.

That would make for one dull ZA. Zombies look more and more like a walking range target, I guess the only way to work it, so it would be more convincing would be if the intial virus was airbourne. With a high infection rate, which killed the victim fast, and revived them fast. An the only people left are those with some form of immunity.

That's why most Zombie Apocalypse stories don't actually show the Collapse. Showing the collapse makes it seem all the more implausible, because it is implausible even after you suspend disbelief in the walking dead. Slow Zombies really just aren't that dangerous unless it's you and yours versus a large group of them - and against an armed, careful group, they're just walking targets. Go check out that Night of the Living Dead clip that FLoW mentioned, where the local police plus armed citizens form a line and wipe out the entire zombie group (the whole movie is free on Youtube). That pretty much sums it up.

The scenario you described is basically the I Am Legend movie: virus spread world-wide, kills 5.4 billion people, turns 590 million people into monsters, and leaves a mere 10 million unchanged. That's a more realistic way to get the total societal collapse of the Zombie Apocalypse, although diseases in RL usually aren't that lethal and contagious (super-lethal diseases tend to kill their hosts before they can spread widely, or evolve into less lethal forms).

[A Murder of Ravens]

Something he readily admits to. Still it seemed like a legit question to me.

Please, tell me more. Guys these attacks are kind of lame.

[A Murder of Ravens]

Maybe someone can answer this plot hole in the WD for me. If the "survivors" are all infected with a Z pathogen then why don't they turn while they are living? If someone is bitten by a zombie, why do they then turn if they are already infected? You would think that (a) they would either have some sort of immunity against the bug while they are living, since they are already exposed. Or (B) the pathogen would slowly show signs of infection until they all are (un)dead.

(btw I am talking about the WD cosmology of Zombie lore, so other examples from different source material would not make sense towards explaining this point, obviously.)

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Similar to I Am Legend, you can think about the smokes (vamps, dracs, jumpers, whatever) in The Passage. Extremely fast, extremely strong, extremely agile, and almost impossible to kill with small arms unless you're good or lucky enough to hit the sweet spot or a similar weak spot. I think that they calculate in the book that there are 42 million of them in the US, with nearly everyone else dead.

(null)

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

AMOR - I guess the pathogen only becomes active after death. We saw this with the patient in the CDC - the virus didn't alter brain activity until she died. Cases like Jim or Amy, where they were bitten and turned, support this (Amy dead from wounds, Jim from what seemed to be a normal infection caused by all the nasty germs in a bite).

(null)

[Sonic The Hedgehog]

Maybe someone can answer this plot hole in the WD for me. If the "survivors" are all infected with a Z pathogen then why don't they turn while they are living? If someone is bitten by a zombie, why do they then turn if they are already infected? You would think that (a) they would either have some sort of immunity against the bug while they are living, since they are already exposed. Or ( B) the pathogen would slowly show signs of infection until they all are (un)dead.

(btw I am talking about the WD cosmology of Zombie lore, so other examples from different source material would not make sense towards explaining this point, obviously.)

I think they do have an immunity while they're alive. Being bitten doesn't turn them into zombies, it just kills them by blood loss or infection (having the blood or saliva of some rotting corpse enter your body can't be good for you). I guess it's like how a komodo dragon's mouth is full of bacteria from eating carcasses lying around, so that you can catch diseases just by being bit by them. I forget the name of the character from season 1 who was bit and left behind, but I remember he was becoming feverish and pretty out of it. Then when they die the infection takes control of the brain or whatever.

[peterbound]

I think they do have an immunity while they're alive. Being bitten doesn't turn them into zombies, it just kills them by blood loss or infection (having the blood or saliva of some rotting corpse enter your body can't be good for you). I guess it's like how a komodo dragon's mouth is full of bacteria from eating carcasses lying around, so that you can catch diseases just by being bit by them. I forget the name of the character from season 1 who was bit and left behind, but I remember he was becoming feverish and pretty out of it. Then when they die the infection takes control of the brain or whatever.

This.

And ravens, I'm glad you took the hint and actually started proofreading your shit before you posted it.

The survivors are all infected. The bite of the zombie kills quickly, allowing the infection to take hold. I'm sure you see later on (speculation only of course) someone getting bitten and them cutting some part of the body off to stop the spread of the 'kill quick' saliva. Just speculation though.

[SwordoftheMorning]

I think you are massively underestimating what trained troops could do. You are right to the extent that troops aren't trained specifically to fight zombies, because they are trained to fight ememies who are far more dangerous. And they are trained in aimed fire, how to erect obstacles, etc.. Modern firepower is so overwhelming that the only things that let you survive it are returning fire that forces troops to keep their heads down, or by engaging mass numbers at close quarters very quickly. Zombies are incapable of doing either.

First, let's say you managed to mass a million zombies in one group, presumably by sending out a flash mob text or something, because the idea of unintelligent zombies massing seems pretty dodgy to begin with. And lets say those million zombies are lined up against one Marine division, perhaps 20,000 troops overall. Outnumbered 50-1. They'd put concertina wire over their frontage, maybe 50 meters out, and just wait for the horde to start shambling up. Probably have the dozers dig as well. They'd probably start aimed fire only within 100 meters or so. What would happen (assuming we're dealing with this huge mass of zombies), is that as zombies started dropping, they'd become an obstacle for the ones behind. The bodies would start pilling up in the fields of fire, and the zombies would more and more slowly, tripping, etc.. Eventually, their movement would essentially stop. In other words, the huge, concentrated mass of zombies you envison, faced with trained troops and firepower, wouldn't ever reach them because the bodies would pile up too fast. That's happened often enough in real war, when troops attacking troops are far more spaced out. Hordes of slow moving, unintelligent zombies would create their own obstacles real fast. Then the troops would start advancing, and just start plinking away again. The horde would have no chance.

And of course, if we're not talking about this concentrated mass, but rather more dispersed groups, they won't have the numbers/concentration to advance on troops before they've gotten the proverbial bullet in the brain. Shit, If I was on the roof of a gas station with a scope-mounted .22 even (for which ammunition is ridiculously plentiful), with your typical zombie horde gathered around, killing even just 1 per minute would be taking it slow. I'd be able to knock out at least 750 per day or so, easily. Any relatively experienced shooter could do the same. Put a single 13 man squad on a roof with ammunition, and they'd be taking down 10,000/day. Just one squad.

You're also dramatically underestimating the amount of ammo the military has, and the concept of fire discipline. One division alone, just on personnel, will be carrying between 3-4 million rounds. They'll have at least twice that at various levels of supply.within the division. Then there would be the dumps, fenced off with fence, and heavily secured, with billions and billions of more rounds. Commanders would be aware of whatever limitations did exist (certainly including the knowledge that kills to the head were necesarry), and so orders would go out regarding conservation of ammo, one shot one kill, etc. I suppose you can manufacture a situation where panicked troops waste all their ammo firing on full auto, but that would be giving our military far too little credit. Unarmed zombies shambling towards you are just not that bad compared to real people shooting back at you, or vehicles moving at high speed, etc..

I just can't see it being anything other than a completely one-sided route. They're too stupid, and too slow.

I was following the WWZ eample of swarms and swarms of undead migrating out of a major urban area continually drawn by the sounds of battle. There are what ? 20 million souls in the NYC metro area ? Let's take a 90% infection rate at the outset which would result in 18 million zombies lurching out towards lunch ( that aforementioned marine division. So now the odds multiple to (50X18 ...... Fuck ) A LOT to 1.

The problem then becomes what I mentioned previously, keep men supplied with ammo and weapons. Keeping gunship pilots and crews, along with bomber and close air support reloaded, resupplied and in fighting shape. We both know combat wears out men and equipment faster than it can be replaced. Your previous example about troops in 2nd floor and higher windows works, until the resupply angle is factored in. And what insurance is there that being a couple of floors up is stay safe and secure. It's a hallmark of zombie tactics that they just keep coming and dying until the bodies pile up high enough to give them access to who's shooting at them. lol.

And with troops scattered to hell and gone amongst various buildings, the logistics of getting them food, more ammo and replacements is multiplied by a an insane factor. Remember in Mogidishu, the last squad of Rangers on the ground during the pullout GOT LEFT BEHIND. The epic Mogidishu Mile resulted from that FUBAR. (an aside, having gone to several Ranger reunions, it's amazing how I've met at least a Battalion's worth of guys who claim to have run out of Mogidishu..... when there was less than a platoon. LOL ) As we used to say, the difference between the military and the boy scouts ? The boy scouts have adult leadership.

I know the military HAS millions, probably a couple of billion rounds of ordanance and ammo. That doesn't alleviate the issue of getting it to the hands of the troops that needed it. You mentioned Roarke's Drift.But what about Insandlawana (sp?). Those same Zulu's wiped out the main British column of several thousand troops, and one of the major problems was a lack of the tool needed to open the ammo boxes. The Brits simply ran out of ammo. That victory and the fact the Zulu's were starving (they didn't eat on campaign) lead to the survival of the detachment at Roarke's Drift. The Zulu's simply decided this extra little battle wasn't worth fighting after the epic victory two days before.

I don't know Jeff, it's be dicey. WWZ's victory tactics seemed workable, but horribly dehumanizing, There is no good way to fight millions and millions of enemy that are immune to fear, injury, fatigue, and hunger. Who just keep coming. It would not be a battle I'd like to fight.

[Spring Bass]

I was following the WWZ eample of swarms and swarms of undead migrating out of a major urban area continually drawn by the sounds of battle. There are what ? 20 million souls in the NYC metro area ? Let's take a 90% infection rate at the outset which would result in 18 million zombies lurching out towards lunch ( that aforementioned marine division. So now the odds multiple to (50X18 ...... Fuck ) A LOT to 1.

I don't think it would be that bad. Most of the population probably fled in the chaos of the Great Panic, although a couple million zombies were left wandering around in NYC.

The problem then becomes what I mentioned previously, keep men supplied with ammo and weapons. Keeping gunship pilots and crews, along with bomber and close air support reloaded, resupplied and in fighting shape. We both know combat wears out men and equipment faster than it can be replaced. Your previous example about troops in 2nd floor and higher windows works, until the resupply angle is factored in. And what insurance is there that being a couple of floors up is stay safe and secure. It's a hallmark of zombie tactics that they just keep coming and dying until the bodies pile up high enough to give them access to who's shooting at them. lol.

Zombies aren't great climbers, and it's going to be a slow climb for them up a mound of corpses. It actually makes it easier for the shooters, since they won't be bunched up anymore.

I know the military HAS millions, probably a couple of billion rounds of ordanance and ammo. That doesn't alleviate the issue of getting it to the hands of the troops that needed it. You mentioned Roarke's Drift.But what about Insandlawana (sp?). Those same Zulu's wiped out the main British column of several thousand troops, and one of the major problems was a lack of the tool needed to open the ammo boxes. The Brits simply ran out of ammo. That victory and the fact the Zulu's were starving (they didn't eat on campaign) lead to the survival of the detachment at Roarke's Drift. The Zulu's simply decided this extra little battle wasn't worth fighting after the epic victory two days before.

That was the biggest reason for the failure at Yonkers - it took place three months into the Great Panic, with crap like the I-80 Chapter Events* happening all over the place. Supply was a huge problem, which was why the tanks/armor/artillery only had limited supplies of rounds.

* One of my favorite chapters in the book, by the way. I'd love to see it translated to film, but it probably won't end up in the WWZ movie.

I don't know Jeff, it's be dicey. WWZ's victory tactics seemed workable, but horribly dehumanizing, There is no good way to fight millions and millions of enemy that are immune to fear, injury, fatigue, and hunger. Who just keep coming. It would not be a battle I'd like to fight.

There's nothing dehumanizing about marching in ranks, and it can actually be good for morale. The post-Redeker strategy was pretty good in most respects, meeting the goals of

1. Clean-sweeping areas they march through, generally creating an expanding zombie-free zone behind them;

2. Making the best use of their limited industrial and population base considering the size of the zombie horde they were facing (200+ million);

3. Minimizing casualties at the hands of zombies.

The only real problems with it I can think of are that they should have tried to bomb some of the bigger swarms before mothballing their planes, and that the logistical burden of maintaining three giant fronts would be big (although they don't appear to use vehicles outside of supply purposes and reconnaissance with regards to the anti-Zombie army).

[Alia of the knife]

Sledgehammer. One swing. Just make sure Carl isn't in the backswing.

Or is it make -sure- Carl is in the backswing?

You know if this were the real world, smacking Carl would have become a group effort by now.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Or at the least tying him to a bed from time to time.

(null)

[ICE CROW]

I wasn't around to get my thoughts in lately so here they are. I am so fucking glad that rick finally killed Shane, the way he died i thought was amazing and having Carl kill Walker Shane was the first thing he did that didn't make me smack the kid for once.

The finale was ok in my opinion not great, it felt too rushed and that these guys by now should have some idea how to deal with that situation with a little more cohesion. Granted with Rick and Shane not being there and them being the two who are best at the sort of thing i understand it but it felt sloppy. My favourite part of the whole finale was Rick just finally setting everyone straight, telling them that he killed Shane and this is not a democracy anymore was the highlight of the episode. I have never read the series so at first i didn't know who Michonne was till i looked it up, she seems like a real badass.

All in all i liked the whole season, some people felt some of the first episodes were too slow i liked them all.

[Alia of the knife]

In watching the last episode again, I am again taken aback how Lori puts everyone in danger:

- She attempts to send Daryl back out into the dark right before the siege, to find her men, Shane and Rick

- She sends Andrea out to get Carol while she keeps the seat warm in T-Dawgs truck

-She wants everyone to find Carl who she keeps losing, (she must be directly descended from Rickard Stark due to her inability to keep up with her child).

Andrea and Carol at first, and for different reasons bothered me as female stereotypical archetypes of different molds. Andrea seems to have found herself, and Carol has found her honorable "Knight" in Daryl, but Lori truly is a danger. As a woman, I would tell Lori to get off her a#%, and fend for herself, instead of expecting everyone to put themselves in harms way for her and hers.

[ICE CROW]

In watching the last episode again, I am again taken aback how Lori puts everyone in danger:

- She attempts to send Daryl back out into the dark right before the siege, to find her men, Shane and Rick

- She sends Andrea out to get Carol while she keeps the seat warm in T-Dawgs truck

-She wants everyone to find Carl who she keeps losing, (she must be directly descended from Rickard Stark due to her inability to keep up with her child).

Andrea and Carol at first, and for different reasons bothered me as female stereotypical archetypes of different molds. Andrea seems to have found herself, and Carol has found her honorable "Knight" in Daryl, but Lori truly is a danger. As a woman, I would tell Lori to get off her a#%, and fend for herself, instead of expecting everyone to put themselves in harms way for her and hers.

I really hated Andrea for along time, but i think she began to find herself when she decided to speak up and agree with Dale. I think now with Shane gone and her not sort of following his lead she has a chance to hopefully grow as a her own character next season, didn't see much of her in the last 2 episodes except her kicking ass in the finale. i like the Carol and Daryl dynamic, not sure if they are trying to make it into a possible romance or what ,but i think they work well together.