When did Daenerys Targaryen become your least favourite character?

[BabyMeraxes]

I haven't started my ADWD re-read yet, but I can't even motherfucking wait. Mostly because I feel all the Dany bashing in that book is misguided and, dare I say it, prejudiced.

During my first read through, I remember feeling that Dany's difficulties in ruling Meereen weren't exclusively a result of her poor choices, but a result of ruling being FUCKING HARD. Jon Snow, who I'd argue made very few mistakes as LC of the Night's Watch, ran into similar problems because it's tough to rule any large number of people. And, both sets of people that Jon had jurisdiction over liked him at some point. In fact, I'd like someone to point out a character in this series (not some historical figure, a monarch who ruled during the time covered in this series) that had an easy go of it. Please, someone.

An often over-looked part of Dany's governing of Meereen was her focus on reviving Meereen's economy (At this point, I'd like you to remember that Dany is 15). The first quarter of her arch is spent trying to set up some kind of reliable export/importing of goods with a lack of any valuable resource. When she realizes that slavery is the only way to generate a significant income for the city, she re-opens the fighting pits, because she realizes that her desires are eclipsed by the need and well being of her people.

Now, I realize Dany made some mistakes while governing Meereen. Would I have married Hizdahr zo Loraq? Nope, but that was a difficult decision she made in order to protect her people. In fact, while we're on this topic, I'd like to argue that Daenerys is the only character with any kind of power in the series that treats her small folk with decency and empathy. She gives two shits about her poors, which is maybe the most important part of wielding power.

Was she a little shady with Quentyn Martell? I guess, but at that point she was already betrothed. Where were the Martell's when she and Viserys were hiding in the free cities? Where was Quentyn when Dany was floundering in Quarth? Quentyn arrived to late, and that's shitty, but that's life.

And seriously all this shit with Daario? She wants to bang him! Get over it! How often has your sexual desire been preceded by an internal monologue discussing a hot piece's morality and social decency. If you say, "often", then you're probably very boring.

And can I just say, Dany's POV of the Meereenese Fighting Pits was HANDS DOWN my favorite chapter in the entire series. And that final chapter? Gurl. Fire and Blood, baby.

What I got from Dany's plot arch in ADWD is that she is selfless, and that she cares, and that's she trying, and that she's learning. And that's what makes her an endearing, lovable, important character - for me. But, what is literature if not malleable and personal.

Maybe this will all change after I re-read the book, but I don’t think so.

I'd also like to add that I'm not posting this to be like, "IF YOU HATE DANY, YOU'RE A JEALOUS IDIOT." Go ahead and hate her, 'cause I ain't even worried. I'm just giving you the view as I see it.

[Independent George]

I think there are two great quotes that sum up my frustrations with Dany:

1. Kill the boy. It takes a man to rule.

2. Boy lords are the bane of any house.

Roose Bolton and Aemon Targaryan are about as opposite as it gets, but they're right about this. Robb's downfall was acting the boy with Jeyne Westerling; nothing he did afterwards could make up for the single dumbest political act in the history of the Starks (which is actually quite the achievement, but by gosh, he did it!). Jon acted the boy by sending Mance to rescue his sister instead of making the hard decision and defending the kingdom. Both have paid for it, but for them, the cost came rather swiftly; Dany's rule is a slow-motion trainwreck.

[ghost the direwolf]

liked her less after the death of Visery and not at all after the unjust death of Mirri Marz Durr. She should have killed jorah at that time and she knows it.

[Aslerys]

We are all entitled to our opinions but one of the problems I see with Dany haters is that they view Westeros as the center of the story when I think that GRRM, from the very beginning has made this a story about both Westeros AND Essos. I believe that the Dany haters are resentful that the Dany chapters take them away from Westeros. You should look at this story in a full, comprehensive way. What happens in Essos effects the characters in Westeros greatly. The main story involves both continents. Don't just look at Westeros as the main storyline because it most decidedly is not.

Yes, many of the principle characters reside in Westeros but some of the most important developments are in Essos. Dany is one of the pivotal characters in the novels. What she does is paramount to the story. When you really think about it, she and Jon are the two main characters in the story. Everyone else kind of just moves around their orbits. Yes, the War of the Five Kings is a central story plot but it also seems very trivial in comparison to the rise of Daenerys and what's happening at The Wall. Petty mortal men squabbling over a throne means nothing against dragons and the Others.

^ I agree with you and I think a lot of people were disappointed when she decided to stay in Mereen, I was disappontied too but then I realise it was necessary plot device, she stayed there to learn and hopefully she will not made the same mistakes in Westeros.

What I like the most about her is that she always tries to do the best thing, of course she screw up sometimes but for me it's normal she is in a very very difficult position and she never learned "to play the game".

You could always argue that she should listen more, she should be less arrogant and get back to westeros but I don't blame her for care about her people in Mereen and for not trust people, after all the person she trusted the most end up to be a traitor. However I do think she is improving and that she has potencial to be a good ruler.

I don't blame her for Daario either because I think he is her "chocolate" :P I mean when I'm feeling down or really worried about something I end up eating a lot of chocolate and I do think that Dany is quite depressed in ADWD so Daario is there to make her feel better :D .

I understand why some people find her chapters boring but honestly I have seen far worse, in the end it's a matter of taste.

[Ser Leo Targaryen]

I disliked her a lot when she was in Qarth, but she kind of won me back when she took Astapor. Only to have me hating her again in Meeren!

Still wouldn't put her as my least favorite, though... just an annoying one!

[DornishKnight]

I disliked her a lot when she was in Qarth, but she kind of won me back when she took Astapor. Only to have me hating her again in Meeren!

Still wouldn't put her as my least favorite, though... just an annoying one!

:agree: I was going to comment on the board. But you summarized my exact thoughts. :bowdown:

[Nev yn]

Not reading the whole thread since I tire of the topic, but saw this...

We are all entitled to our opinions but one of the problems I see with Dany haters is that they view Westeros as the center of the story when I think that GRRM, from the very beginning has made this a story about both Westeros AND Essos.

There's been an interesting discussion on our forum concerning "orientalism" as it's expressed in your work, and one question it's led to among readers is whether you've ever considered a foreign point of view characters in Essos, to give a different window into events there.

No, this story is about Westeros. Those other lands are important only as they reflect on Westeros.

I'll just leave this here.

On topic, for me the point was when I visited these forums and saw the Dany-supporters, no joke. I was fine with her as a "protagonist" in the story, with speckled means and doing some bad things, but was at least understandable in character. But then I saw how people don't even recognize some of the terrible things she did as rather terrible, and I can't feel comfortable not disliking the character anymore.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

On topic, for me the point was when I visited these forums and saw the Dany-supporters, no joke. I was fine with her as a "protagonist" in the story, with speckled means and doing some bad things, but was at least understandable in character. But then I saw how people don't even recognize some of the terrible things she did as rather terrible, and I can't feel comfortable not disliking the character anymore.

Honestly, this is a huge point of contention for me, too. Some of what she's done that people continue to defend is mind-boggling.

[Melifeather]

I think we all just get a bit frustrated when the story lags. We want to just get on with it! But, Dany's dragons have to grow larger before they are of any use, and the last chapter was thrilling in that regard. I am so looking forward to the next book. In the meantime, I'm in a bit of a re-read project and am on the second book again. I am so amazed at what I'd either missed or forgotten from the first go 'round!

[GregorBlackfinger]

Sometime after the house of the undying, because even after she sees all these... prophecies(?) that mostly involve Westeros, she decides that she wants to spend the next 2,000 pages sitting in a desert argueing about fighting pits.

[_Oberyn_]

We are all entitled to our opinions but one of the problems I see with Dany haters is that they view Westeros as the center of the story when I think that GRRM, from the very beginning has made this a story about both Westeros AND Essos. I believe that the Dany haters are resentful that the Dany chapters take them away from Westeros. You should look at this story in a full, comprehensive way. What happens in Essos effects the characters in Westeros greatly. The main story involves both continents. Don't just look at Westeros as the main storyline because it most decidedly is not.

Yes, many of the principle characters reside in Westeros but some of the most important developments are in Essos. Dany is one of the pivotal characters in the novels. What she does is paramount to the story. When you really think about it, she and Jon are the two main characters in the story. Everyone else kind of just moves around their orbits. Yes, the War of the Five Kings is a central story plot but it also seems very trivial in comparison to the rise of Daenerys and what's happening at The Wall. Petty mortal men squabbling over a throne means nothing against dragons and the Others.

Not true, I enjoy the Essos chapters alot more the the Westeros ones. All the small details in Tyrions journey about local history in Essos and Connington/Selmy chapters are just great. Is just the " blood of the dragon waa waa waa.... rightfull ruler waaa waaa waaa..... lets "free" some people so i can feel good about myself waa waa waa... fuck if they starve to death and die of desease waa waa waa... im a fucking whore with some bs dragons and im too good for Dorne despite Dorne being good enough for real kings in Westeros waa waa waa..."

And to be honest it is dargons and the others that will mean nothing at the and of the day, this books are based on people, "petty mortals" as they may be. You find out drangons and others will play alot less prominent role then people expect.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And to be honest it is dargons and the others that will mean nothing at the and of the day, this books are based on people, "petty mortals" as they may be. You find out drangons and others will play alot less prominent role then people expect.

While I don't think she should be called a whore and I think "nothing" is a bit too strong of a word, I broadly agree with this, that it's human agency and human choices that matter in the end and not necessarily some supernatural easy button.

[The Storm Queen]

In hindsight and after thinking about her storyline as independent stand alone (and not as "interruption" of my favourite arcs) I came to appreciate her arc more.

In Faust, a famous German work of literatur there is a very famous line about the devil: "I am a part of the power that always wants the evil and creates the good" (freely translated). Dany seems to be the exact opposite. She honestly wants to be good and act good but at the same time her actions can be evil (or have evil consequences). This makes for a fascinating tale about the dark side of ideals and the dictaturship of the benevolent.

I often wish that Martin invested more time and energy in writing Essos and Dany´s antagonists. The issues he tackles in her arc are intriguing but he often fails at the implementation imho.

[BabyMeraxes]

While I don't think she should be called a whore and I think "nothing" is a bit too strong of a word, I broadly agree with this, that it's human agency and human choices that matter in the end and not necessarily some supernatural easy button.

I think that's it's super interesting how we come to the same literature for different things. I agree that the humanity in this series is touching and powerful, but there's something about the fantastic and supernatural that completes this package for me. Especially when you get to see it begin to bubble over in Crows and Dragons. They are necessary in how they compliment one another. And if the fantastic wasn't there, I'm not sure if i could bring myself to give a shit. I probably could, but it would take some effort.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Some of what she's done that people continue to defend is mind-boggling.

Idk I can't bring myself to hate Dany. She is a character straight from mythology. Loves her "people" and cares if they are sick/hungry, she recognizes the difference between right and wrong and will abolish slavery no matter the cost. But then on the flip side, she is the last hope for the greatest dynasty that Westeros has ever seen, and she owes it to her family to sit in the throne from Aegon I to Prince Rhaegar, she wont stop untill the Targs have been avenged

Plus she is fucking gorgeous

[_Oberyn_]

Idk I can't bring myself to hate Dany. She is a character straight from mythology. Loves her "people" and cares if they are sick/hungry, she recognizes the difference between right and wrong and will abolish slavery no matter the cost. But then on the flip side, she is the last hope for the greatest dynasty that Westeros has ever seen, and she owes it to her family to sit in the throne from Aegon I to Prince Rhaegar, she wont stop untill the Targs have been avenged

Plus she is fucking gorgeous

Well there you have it, a character that appeals to the lowest common denominator. As long as you float around the shallow end and dont ask any complimacated questions like "Who created the sick/hungry?" Dany is your queen.

Maybe the dislike for Dany is born out of our own "cynicism" and persistent stubbornness to look at the whole picture. :dunno:

[BabyMeraxes]

Well there you have it, a character that appeals to the lowest common denominator. As long as you float around the shallow end and dont ask any complimacated questions like "Who created the sick/hungry?" Dany is your queen.

Maybe the dislike for Dany is born out of our own "cynicism" and persistent stubbornness to look at the whole picture. :dunno:

But this is literature, and people can look for and find different things in these characters. What you hate about Daenerys, might be what draws the next person to her. If you want to dismiss Daenerys as base, or one-note or boring, well, that's the choice you make as a reader. I don't agree, and think that you're missing out on an opportunity to get into a really cool, subverted representation of power and femininity. Yes, her actions were a catalyst for the sickness and disease, but I don't think that's lost on Dany (I'm pretty sure that's the point of her POV where she rides beyond the walls of Meereen, although it's been a while). Anyway, I'm not trying to say that Daenerys doesn't have flaws, or that she's the best thing since Odysseus, I just enjoy her character and story. Either way, that's what's awesome about good, solid story-telling: it'll illicit a response either way.

[Queen Cersei I]

I think we all just get a bit frustrated when the story lags. We want to just get on with it! But, Dany's dragons have to grow larger before they are of any use, and the last chapter was thrilling in that regard.

Alas, much like Tyrion, Dany's storyline ended where it should have begun. We could have easily done without all those chapters of boy obsessing, internal agonizing, false starts, and attempts at ruling from Danerys just as we could have done without the girl obsessing, internal agonizing, false starts, and travalogues from Tyrion's perspective.

It should have started on the chapter it ended, for both of them. The preceding chapters did nothing to advance the plot, deepen characterization, or anything else useful.

[Queen Cersei I]


 has a superiority complex that's been consistently fed and ennabled by literally everyone around her. The idea that it's her gender that's the problem is, to me, kind of absurd.

 


The idea that GRRM refuses to portray a competent female leader who is not veritably calling out for assistance from the naturally more competent males around is not at all ridiculous, and is a fact that has been hammered in at every juncture in these books. Did you notice something that all of the people offering the foolish, doomed Cersei much wiser advice that she (as a dreaded self confident evil woman rather than an insecure good woman, a la Dany) refused to take all had in common? In addition to all having proven to be second-rate minds in the past, ALL of these wiser advising folk were male. Jaime, Kevan, Grand Maester Pycelle, and seven-year-old Tommen—all know better than her, but the foolish Cersei will not listen to them.

Apparently, even the most mediocre of men are naturally wiser rulers than a woman. Meanwhile, the truly good and smart women (Margary Tyrell and Olenna) are clever enough to stay in the background, and manipulate things from behind the scenes when the man in power is an idiot.

Meanwhile, Dany (who is supposed to represent the other way women can rule, according to the author) has just as much of a lack of judgment as Cersei. She is foolish and unfit to rule, only her apparent redeeming quality is that she knows how unfit she is, realizes that she needs someone to depend upon for all her major decisions, does not trust her own judgment or abilities, and can’t wait for someone (read: Tyrion) to come waltzing on in and show her the correct way to act.

Having women leaders when they are merely veritable figureheads; front people allowing the naturally superior men whom the author relates to to run the show (as nature intended) is really not all that threatening, apparently, to an author who further popularizes the idea that women who want power must really, really want to have penis’s.


Except Dany never actually was a "super competent girl genius". That's the whole point---she looked incredibly competent in the first three books simply because all of her adversaries were supremely incompetent. The tactics that seemed so brilliant at first---cheating the Astapori out of an Unsullied army and then slaughtering the Astapori nobility, "Dracarys!", freeing all the slaves so as to deprive the slavers of their armies---were "brilliant" only in the short term. ADWD is merely the point at which the inevitable consequences of Dany's actions finally started catching up with her: she now has a rather well-deserved reputation for treachery, so her word is mud and nobody believes she genuinely wants peace


Your confident assertion that Dany’s failings come from hubris simply do not fit with her words, thoughts, and actions in ADWD. She spends the entirety of that book not armored in her own hubris (as you suggest—since her perception of herself as the blood of the dragon has apparently led her to surround herself with those who don’t dare criticize her)—but insecure, indecisive, constantly second-guessing herself.

Nor is her big failing point that she has been treacherous in the past, and now no one believes her—it is because she spends the entirety of the book refusing to take action. Many of her trusted allies abandon her not because she is untrustworthy and “her word is mud,” but for the opposite reasons—she will not act appropriately amoral and unleash her dragons, so they lose faith in her and her newfound moral scruples.

The two reasons dany is distrusted in ADWD:

a. By the Merenese nobles because-- She is a stranger in a strange land where she opposes the long held customs of the noble ruling class. She has to make some overture to them, proving her good faith, hence the marriage.

b. By half of her own allies, because—she shuts up her greatest weapon—her dragon—and refuses to use them, and basically flits around indecisively, so that not even Brown Ben Plum takes her face to face veiled threats as anything other than a joke

Both of these issues are not at all improved by Dany’s silliness, lack of faith in her own judgment, indecisiveness, and sudden, drastic IQ drop in ADWD. All things that, despite the fact that she was never a genius per say, are new, yes.


 If she had people like Donal Noye, Aemon Targaryen, Jeor Mormont, Mance Rayder, even freaking Ygritte---people to smack her down when she needed it---I doubt she'd be in the situation she's now in. But a major reason why she doesn't have these kinds of people is because you can't consider yourself the uber-special "blood of the dragon" and be willing to get smacked down by non-dragons.


False. In fact, Danerys spends the entirety of the book floundering around, searching for advice, constantly second-guessing her own abilities, and relying on those around her. Rather than not being willing to listen to anyone because she’s the blood of the dragon, she asks Barristan Selmy for advice on everything. Naturally, though he has been shown as of mediocre (at best) intelligence in the past, he is male and thus much smarter than Dany. Things proceed as follow:

Dany either a. Listens to Barristan (the result is general success) or b. Proceeds to make her own decisions and keep her own council (the result is epic, disastrous failure.)

Again, clearly even the most mediocre of men are more fit to make administrative decisions than women.

P.S.-- though your post is sure to be very popular since it voices more opinions more or less word for word shared by countless posters, it seems that it does not have much to do with the text itself. You critisize Danerys for her Targ hubris, her annoying blood of the dragon schlock, and other things that are the commonly heard complaints against her. However, despite the fact that Dany's evil/ foolish refusal to look at the truth of her family is endlesly highlighted and presented as dense/ folly in ADWD, I simply cannot see how this affected a single one of her administrative decisions.

Nor can I see how her Targ hubris ever affected her admistrative decisions. IMO, it seemed that this did little more than provide an annoying repetitive catch phrase for her, her version of "Lance Osmund Kettleblack and probably moonboy for all I know..." Where and when did she ever refuse advice or act foolishly because " I am the head of the dragon, etc"? The fact is, she, like all other women, is simply not portrayed as all that bright or capable of ruling as are the men.

[Mumatil]

Her falling for that Dorio Nahris or whatever his namer is.(His name doesn't even matter to me.)

"Rolls eyes."

Hey I wanted to prove my loyalty and trust worthyness by severing the heads of my fellow comrades! - yeah......

Shes not my least favorite but I consider this face palm worthy.