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Time Warp


unBloodraven

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first, someone please reply with the phonetic pronunciation of Jaqen h'gar. heavy debating going on with some friends of mine, and what tom wlaschiha (the actor) is going to say. i would really appreciate it.

second, and hate to bring up a sub-par movie like "wanted" but i see a potential parallel: i see arya not finishing full training because she will be conflicted with an assignment and disrupting the entire faceless men order. arya is a stark with great potential. she will be a player in westeros, i just can't see her devoting her life to the assassin clan. she may have to take all of them out in the process, but so be it. i hope she does complete some assignments before this realization. the chapter when arya assassinated her first was great. think if she develops her skill and then goes rogue, reunites with nymeria. then you have an assassin who can learn to warg into a direwolf. throats will rip!

sam, somewhat the same, but different, will recognize the magnitude of events to come, and need to postpone his maester training. we all know he is smart, and can perhaps progress more quickly than his peers, but he will still need to leave the citadel for the delivering of info, mance jr, or helping jon.

big events are too looming for both characters to ignore.

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first, someone please reply with the phonetic pronunciation of Jaqen h'gar. heavy debating going on with some friends of mine, and what tom wlaschiha (the actor) is going to say. i would really appreciate it.

I saw an interview with the actor where he says the producers asked him how he would say it, to which he said "Jack-In"

AccessHollywood.com: First things first — do you know how to say your character’s name?

Tom Wlaschiha: (Laughs) Well, the decision was a bit up to me, actually.

Access: That’s hilarious.

Tom: Well, we discussed it. David [benioff] and Dan [Weiss], the producers, they asked me how I would pronounce it and I told them I’d say Jaqen (editor’s note: sounds like Jack-in) and they were fine with it.

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I saw an interview with the actor where he says the producers asked him how he would say it, to which he said "Jack-In"

AccessHollywood.com: First things first — do you know how to say your character’s name?

Tom Wlaschiha: (Laughs) Well, the decision was a bit up to me, actually.

Access: That’s hilarious.

Tom: Well, we discussed it. David [benioff] and Dan [Weiss], the producers, they asked me how I would pronounce it and I told them I’d say Jaqen (editor’s note: sounds like Jack-in) and they were fine with it.

thanks. appreciate it.

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second, and hate to bring up a sub-par movie like "wanted" but i see a potential parallel: i see arya not finishing full training because she will be conflicted with an assignment and disrupting the entire faceless men order. arya is a stark with great potential. she will be a player in westeros, i just can't see her devoting her life to the assassin clan. she may have to take all of them out in the process, but so be it. i hope she does complete some assignments before this realization. the chapter when arya assassinated her first was great. think if she develops her skill and then goes rogue, reunites with nymeria. then you have an assassin who can learn to warg into a direwolf. throats will rip!

sam, somewhat the same, but different, will recognize the magnitude of events to come, and need to postpone his maester training. we all know he is smart, and can perhaps progress more quickly than his peers, but he will still need to leave the citadel for the delivering of info, mance jr, or helping jon.

big events are too looming for both characters to ignore.

I agree.

However, I would like to see Arya and Sam both complete or nearly complete their respective training, and I think that should take a while. The Faceless Men are revered assassins and incredibly expensive to hire. I would be disappointed if the training that makes them so badass only takes a year or so. They have to learn a lot...and that includes combat skills. Even becoming a knight must take years; Faceless Men are worth a dozen or more knights. Also, I'd expect the duration of maester training to be like that of today's med school.

Let's also face the fact that an 11- or 12-year-old girl (or boy) assassin couldn't be nearly as dangerous as a fully grown assassin. I know this story is fantasy, but it wouldn't make sense that Arya could be that good of an assassin without serious training over the course of several years. Having warging abilities and a direwolf does dramatically improve her résumé though.

A 5-year jump would allow for both training and aging (of people and dragons). Some stability in the current story would need to be reached in order for this to happen though, so that the story could be picked up again without changes that are too important to be missed. It's probably an impossibility at this point, though, especially after the ending chapter in ADWD, when Varys foreshadowed that the realm must be in disarray in order for a new king to win the throne.

Short list of characters who need training:

  1. Arya - Faceless (wo)Man, warg training
  2. Sam - maester training
  3. Dany's dragons - they seriously need to be trained
  4. Bran - he must still have a lot to learn
  5. Jon - warg training? (pending his survival), and/or training by Melisandre, who I believe was "sent" by R'hllor to help the Prince that was Promised
  6. Rickon - warg training?
  7. Dany - will she go to Ashaii before Westeros? For what, truth??
  8. Hodor - needs to improve his vocabulary :drunk:

Short list of characters who need aging:

  1. Arya - better if she's an adult assassin
  2. Rickon - because he could become important at some point

The 5-year jump is probably an impossibility at this point, due to logistics, so I think GRRM just needs to leave more time between chapters, i.e. have 5-dozen 1-month jumps instead of one 5-year jump.

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Most likely both Arya and Sam (and Sansa even), by the time they're each done with their respective training, will have learned all the skills necessary that they needed for the story. The two years, or less for Sam, should be enough for that. Arya has already been in Braavos for a year, possibly more, another year and she'll have learned the necessary skills to go full Faceless Man, especially with the way she's been advancing through the ranks up until now. For Sam, he'll just have to earn the right links quickly. Alleras, for instance, took less than a year to earn her first three. Sam can do even better than that I'm sure.

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I don't think Arya will ever fully complete her training and become a faceless man. what i think will happen is that she will begin her new training with her faceless man mentor/teacher. they together will attempt to complete a contract paid for by the iron bank of bravos to kill the harys swyft, the lord treasurer who kevan had sent across the narrow sea to try and negotiate new loans. Kevan mentions that he has assigned the Mountain's old men as Swyft's bodygaurds (this includes dunsen and raff) or whoever is left. Arya will see these men and be reminded of her old hit list.

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Arya's training has moved into the apprenticeship phase, so depending on the Faceless Men's agenda, she can cross into the main plot without having to complete her training. It makes sense that encountering Raff and Dunsen in Bravos would likely initiate it.

Sam's maester training is more problematic, but I can see two possibilities:

1. Unlike other initiates, Sam has already received a nobleman's education, and so may be able to advance considerably faster than the others.

2. Assuming Alleras = Sarella, and if Jaqen & the FM has an agenda in the Citadel, events might force Sam to act ahead of schedule.

Both options aren't mutually exclusive, so I have to assume that's how the story will wind up playing out.

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Its just a jump to the left

And then a step to the right

Put your hands on your hips.

Couldn't resist!

A 5-year jump would allow for both training and aging (of people and dragons). Some stability in the current story would need to be reached in order for this to happen though, so that the story could be picked up again without changes that are too important to be missed. It's probably an impossibility at this point, though, especially after the ending chapter in ADWD, when Varys foreshadowed that the realm must be in disarray in order for a new king to win the throne.

Short list of characters who need training:

  1. Arya - Faceless (wo)Man, warg training
  2. Sam - maester training
  3. Dany's dragons - they seriously need to be trained
  4. Bran - he must still have a lot to learn
  5. Jon - warg training? (pending his survival), and/or training by Melisandre, who I believe was "sent" by R'hllor to help the Prince that was Promised
  6. Rickon - warg training?
  7. Dany - will she go to Ashaii before Westeros? For what, truth??
  8. Hodor - needs to improve his vocabulary :drunk:

Short list of characters who need aging:

  1. Arya - better if she's an adult assassin
  2. Rickon - because he could become important at some point

The 5-year jump is probably an impossibility at this point, due to logistics, so I think GRRM just needs to leave more time between chapters, i.e. have 5-dozen 1-month jumps instead of one 5-year jump.

I completely agree with you and would add that I would even like to see Tommen, Myrcella, Sansa and Sweetrobin grow up too. It would be nice if some of our younger leading characters were able to mature to become better players in the Game. It would have been great if Jon and Dany would have had five years to learn instead of being trust into their cliffhangers at the end of Dance. To me, Dance highlighted Jon and Dany's experiences in learning how to rule in positions of power and the mistakes they made. I think they both have great potential and wish they could have had more time.

I think the five year break could have happened more easily before YG/Aegon invaded Westeros because that can't have a five year break without immediate resolution (or at least I'd rather see it than be told Aegon won/lost and here's how it is five years later). And the same goes for the cliffhanger story lines like Jon, Dany, Cersei, Brienne and Jamie.

I agree that things could be advanced with speeding things up a chapter at a time, and I do think GRRM was doing that with Arya and Bran at least. When Bran is in the cave, a lot of time passes because he sees (or we are told) several cycles of the moon.

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I think GRRM will be able two pull of Sam and Arya's "training", without any crazy time gaps.

Number one, GRRM can make more time go by in each chapter, like others have mentioned, and number two, both Sam and Arya are coming into their training well ahead of the "average" person.

Sam is very good at reading, and he knows a lot of history already, that's got to be a bulk of most people's training. Then Sam has worked with the Ravens enough to get his link for raven craft, right away. Sam has also had some experience in healing and herb craft, because after the battle of the Fist of the First Men, it fell upon the Stewards to take care of the injured. Also, I am sure Sam picked up a few things from Aemon, as far as healing went, so that will help also. Sam did the count with Maester Aemon, when it came time to vote for the new Lord Commander, so he knows his sums and stuff. Also Sam has at least some experience with "magic", as far as being around Mel, and the Others and stuff, but that's not really a requirement to become a full fledged Maester anyway. So I think it's very possible for Sam to complete his training, if that's what GRRM wants, but who knows, Sam could just learn what he needs to, and then return to the Wall. Think of Holdon Halfmaester, he seems to be very effective, without being an actual chained Maester.

Now when it comes to Arya, it's pretty much the same. I am sure FM are required to know how to read, Arya can do that. Arya also has experience with numbers and reading maps, so I am sure that with a normal person joining the FM, it would take time to learn those things. Also Arya has had quite a bit of training with sword fighting, so that's got to help speed things along. Arya has survival training, like no other, that's a big help. Then you have to look at the fact that Arya had fought and killed people, way before she came to the House of Black and White. I am sure that the idea of taking a life, is usually something that takes some time with the average recruit. Arya has also had some level of training with taking different identities(Arry, Weasel, Nan, etc), hell Arya even convinced a group of guys that she was a boy, for weeks, so that has to help her a lot. Also Arya has skills in being stealthy, and keeping calm in stressful situation, she has got a pretty good handle on the whole "fear cuts deeper than swords" stuff.

Some people think that it is very ridiculous that a girl of such a young age, is becoming a highly trained assassin... I think that those people are ridiculous, if anyone in the store is meant to become a super assasign, it would be Arya. Pretty much everything sense the second half of Thrones, has been preparing Arya to be the perfect candidate, to become a Faceless Man(in her case Woman).

Also many fighting schools through out history, had kids starting at an even younger age than Arya, so it's not all that crazy. Think of Spartans, they entered training to be warriors at like age 5, and if I am not mistaken, I believe Jackie Chan was put into some kind of crazy fighting school, at a very young age(the school forced you to fight, and that's why he hates fighting, and that's why he is always only fighting for defense in his movies and stuff, because he was forced to fight at such a young age)

People must also remember, this is a fantasy, and it's easy to forget, but all of the characters are super young, but that doesn't stop them from doing super awesome stuff. People had to grow up much, much faster in those days.

Some people think that there needs to be a time gap, because they think it would be better if Arya was a woman, and not a little girl. I would just like to point out, that being a certain age does not make you a woman in Westeros. You become a woman, when you have had your first "flowering". So Arya could easily become a "woman", by the end of TWoW, or by the beginning of ADoS. So she could start to grow much faster, and still become a muture, beautiful young woman, without some time gap.

I actually don't even know why people are entertaining the idea of a five year gap any more, wouldn't that be pretty awful at this time, or any future time of the story? I don't even think its possible anymore, and didn't GRRM confirm that he would not be doing it ?

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Arya won't actually become a faceless man. She is going to get the training that she needs to kill the people she wants and get out of there...she does not want to become noone!

Arya doesn't know what she wants. Besides, that is, that she wants to kill every single person on her list, and coincidentally, becoming a Faceless Man is a good way to accomplish that task. And after that happens :fencing:

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I'm not sure why people are stuck on the idea of completion of training for either Arya or Sam. It seems to me that part of the tension and excitement is precisely that they won't have finished their training and will have to rely on a combination of what they have learned with their innate desire for survival , ie the ingenuity of necessity.

Besides, I'm in the camp (if there is one) that really doesn't want to see Arya turned into the stereotypical ninja girl assassin. Where is AvengingArya fan when you need him!

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Besides, I'm in the camp (if there is one) that really doesn't want to see Arya turned into the stereotypical ninja girl assassin.

Well, that's where she's headed. And she'll defy that stereotype by wearing her victims faces and eating their bodies.

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Well, that's where she's headed. And she'll defy that stereotype by wearing her victims faces and eating their bodies.

What are you talking about? It's not like every Faceless Man has to take over the identity of their target. We only really see Jaqen H'ghar doing that with Pate, and Jaqen does not seem to be on your average FM mission. Most Faceless Men usually just have to kill someone for a mission, not take over someone's entire identity. Like when Arya kills the old insurance man, using a poisoned coin, Arya didn't have to impersonate the old man, and she sure as hell didn't need to take his face, or eat his body...(wtf)

Where do you get the eating their bodies part???

Also, Arya only had to use that face of the abused girl on her first mission, because right now Arya doesn't now how to change her face with a glamor. When we see Jaqen change his face, after killing the Guards at Harrenhall, Jaqen didn't need to cut off anyone's face to do that. So Arya will only need to use actual faces at first, and they aren't even the faces of victims(yes that abused girl was "a" victim, but not a victim of the Faceless Men). The abused girl face that Arya first uses, belonged to a girl that came to the House of Black and White, because she wanted to die, to be released from all the physical pain she had to suffer in life.

I still don't know what your talking about, when you said "and eating their bodies"???

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I think it was just a joke.

I agree with you Ghost, nevertheless on Arya and Sam's training, they are already ahead, they just need to specialize in some domains.

And from what we saw at the end of Arya's arc in Dance, she's gone for another place, maybe taking her final part of training before kicking back.

And for Sam, I agree, he can already start forging a few links, and I think he wont forge all of the ones required too, but the ones he as the most need of before something else happens to his story.

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Yeah, for Sam it'd be quite easy to just add a few links in the intervening period before his arc picks up again in the next book, i.e. something like: "Sam had proven an industrious student, quickly earning links in blah, blah, and blah. Maester So-and-So gave him a hard time, but he got a link from him in the end. Plus, he still didn't like touching corpses."

Arya is a little trickier, since if he did the same thing and said that she had learned how to do something cool like weave glamours we would all be upset that he didn't show us all about it. All the same, she does have a head start, and being a skinchanger gives her certain advantages too.

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If the iron captain escorts the dragon queen to westeros via the jade sea connecting to the sunset sea they will land somewhere in the reach where the ironmen have thousands of ships waiting. Samwell brings gilly home to horn hill and gets caught up in the conflict he wanted to save her from. If she meets marwyn he will give her the keys to the citadel. Tyrion can lead a strike on the rock sneaking through drains and cisterns. Sam doesnt get too far with his chains before wars end.

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What are you talking about? It's not like every Faceless Man has to take over the identity of their target. We only really see Jaqen H'ghar doing that with Pate, and Jaqen does not seem to be on your average FM mission. Most Faceless Men usually just have to kill someone for a mission, not take over someone's entire identity. Like when Arya kills the old insurance man, using a poisoned coin, Arya didn't have to impersonate the old man, and she sure as hell didn't need to take his face, or eat his body...(wtf)

Where do you get the eating their bodies part???

Also, Arya only had to use that face of the abused girl on her first mission, because right now Arya doesn't now how to change her face with a glamor. When we see Jaqen change his face, after killing the Guards at Harrenhall, Jaqen didn't need to cut off anyone's face to do that. So Arya will only need to use actual faces at first, and they aren't even the faces of victims(yes that abused girl was "a" victim, but not a victim of the Faceless Men). The abused girl face that Arya first uses, belonged to a girl that came to the House of Black and White, because she wanted to die, to be released from all the physical pain she had to suffer in life.

I still don't know what your talking about, when you said "and eating their bodies"???

dont wolves eat their victims bodies
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