Time Warp

[Lonin]

I think there will be a time warp forward.... many characters need to be older... many need to gain experience... dragons need to grow.... not sure how...

[David C. Hunter]

I hope he doesnt because it will be extremely jarring at this point in the series.

[Capt. Zemblanity]

Put your hands on your hips.

You bring your knees in tight.

I think a lot of the characters have a lot of maturing to do. Not just Sam and Arya with their training but also Rickon - otherwise what is the point of him to begin with.. I'm interested to see how this will play out.

[Neo]

The time warp isn't necessary. Sam's purpose isn't to become a fully trained Maester, it's to find out crucial information in regards to the oncoming War for the Dawn.

Arya's purpose isn't to become a vastly experienced Faceless Man, it's to become a capable assassin, which she already is.

Daenerys' dragons are also pretty large by the end of ADwD. Drogon is big enough for her to ride upon, and the other two are capable of killing, as Quentyn Martell's crispy corpse will prove.

All the major story arcs are coming together, and Winter has now arrived. The next two books will probably span 2-5 years, so a time jump really isn't necessary.

[barrythebold]

I think there will be a time warp forward.... many characters need to be older... many need to gain experience... dragons need to grow.... not sure how...

There can't be. That's what took him 5 damn years to write one book, and 6 goddamn years to write another. Worked really well for some characters, but much less so for others. Someone on here has predicted Luke Skywalker(Empire) Syndrome for Arya, and I am compelled to agree.

We know GRRM originally planned for the gap after the end of the first book in his trilogy, which ended up being the end of Storm, with the action picking up in the second book 5 years later. That evens that took place in those 5 years ended up being part of the narrative proper₁ in Feast and Dance, so he's already covered what's supposed to take place in that time and has started on the events that would happen at the beginning of the original Dance. There won't be another big gap in time, because he has already worked around it, and the rest of the story doesn't have a gap.

1 I was re-reading Feast the other day, and there's a LittleFinger line I really liked, where he remarks on the damage Cersei has done and says something along the lines of "It would have been nice to have 5 years, but I will make due". Thought it was funny and a little GRRM poking fun at his own frustration/alteration.

[psicomenace]

This thread scares me because it raises the question of the need for more books to bring the story to a satisfactory conclusion. I have nightmares about a Terry Goodkind or Robert Jordan Type scenario that requires 10+ books, years more of waiting and a story that could outlive the author.

There is really no need for Rickon to age and become important. I can see Jon or Lord Manderly acting as a Lord Protector for him and teaching him all that he needs to know. However, I need a fully developed Arya and Sam to be satisfied. I dream of 16 year old Arya who has grown up to be as beautiful as Lyanna and Sansa, but is more badass than either of them could ever hope to be. I need Sam to be as wise and knowledgeable as Maester Aemon and Arch Maester Marwyn (in order to help Jon and the nights watch defeat the Others).

I know it will likely not happen this way, but I think it would be one hell of a series finale.

This is exactly what I think and my concerns, after reading the 5 books and then found out that GRRM decided not to use the time skip I thought "well he will find a way to make everything fit", Although I felt that maybe some characters (like Aria) would not achieve an optimal development specially due to their ages, then I read somewhere that GRRM hinted that there might be more books & that's when I got worried, because to be honest, I would not like to await another 20 years to see this great work completed & I hate to think that something like what happened to Robert Jordan could happen here.

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

I'd imagine your right where we'll see Sam be something of a prodigy, he's already a very well read and studious individual with training under one of the greatest maester in westeros. He probably can pass Ravenery & economics without any study already. Although given his neck girth, he does need more rings than the average acolyte to become a maester. Still if he gets one-three links a month within a year he could be a maester.

Arya I've never expected to finish her training anyways her plot is filled with unexpected twists.

Quite right

Also, Marwyn is an archmaester iirc, and should be able to pass sam off on a couple of links that the citadel hierarchy would not approve of,, like magic, and killing the others.

[The Bastard of Walton]

I dont a time warp, it would be a lazy way to write & GRRM is'nt a lazy writer. When it comes to Sam & Arya's training, all that seems important will stop once the wall comes down. I feel that GRRM (if he had intended this 5 year gap in the story) has thought about how much story we would lose if he did this & changed his mind completely. A few months missing here or there wont be missed, but five years? I doubt this very much & it would be a hell of a shame if it happened.

[Euron Pink Eye]

If GRRM wanted Sam to be a fully qualified Maester in time for the attack of the others he would of sent him ages ago, in book 2 or something. I think his purpose is to be eyes in Oldtown so we can learn whats happening. Sam also is intelligent and hasnt much to learn with reading writing raven care and potentially sums, which is the principle knowledge of a maester bar health care.

And Arya, Rickon and the dragons needed time to age for realism but its not essential and thats why the gap isnt needed now.

On a side note the TV series will benefit from the actors being older then their respective characters and will appear old enough to fulfil their roles

[The Bastard of Walton]

If GRRM wanted Sam to be a fully qualified Maester in time for the attack of the others he would of sent him ages ago, in book 2 or something. I think his purpose is to be eyes in Oldtown so we can learn whats happening. Sam also is intelligent and hasnt much to learn with reading writing raven care and potentially sums, which is the principle knowledge of a maester bar health care.

And Arya, Rickon and the dragons needed time to age for realism but its not essential and thats why the gap isnt needed now.

On a side note the TV series will benefit from the actors being older then their respective characters and will appear old enough to fulfil their roles

100% right.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

If GRRM wanted Sam to be a fully qualified Maester in time for the attack of the others he would of sent him ages ago, in book 2 or something. I think his purpose is to be eyes in Oldtown so we can learn whats happening. Sam also is intelligent and hasnt much to learn with reading writing raven care and potentially sums, which is the principle knowledge of a maester bar health care.

And Arya, Rickon and the dragons needed time to age for realism but its not essential and thats why the gap isnt needed now.

On a side note the TV series will benefit from the actors being older then their respective characters and will appear old enough to fulfil their roles

You are probably right. I think it would have been more fulfilling to have Sam guide Jon and the rest of the coalition against the Others, but it would seem that Melisandre will likely play the role of sorceress/counselor.

[Rain Must Fall]

Arya's training has moved into the apprenticeship phase, so depending on the Faceless Men's agenda, she can cross into the main plot without having to complete her training. It makes sense that encountering Raff and Dunsen in Bravos would likely initiate it.

Sam's maester training is more problematic, but I can see two possibilities:

1. Unlike other initiates, Sam has already received a nobleman's education, and so may be able to advance considerably faster than the others.

2. Assuming Alleras = Sarella, and if Jaqen & the FM has an agenda in the Citadel, events might force Sam to act ahead of schedule.

Both options aren't mutually exclusive, so I have to assume that's how the story will wind up playing out.

I'm not sure why people are stuck on the idea of completion of training for either Arya or Sam. It seems to me that part of the tension and excitement is precisely that they won't have finished their training and will have to rely on a combination of what they have learned with their innate desire for survival , ie the ingenuity of necessity.

Besides, I'm in the camp (if there is one) that really doesn't want to see Arya turned into the stereotypical ninja girl assassin. Where is AvengingArya fan when you need him!

1. The maesters have a test for magical aptitude, though nobody passes it because magic is gone.

2. With the return of dragons, magic is returning to the world.

3. Sam always wanted to become a wizard.

It is known.

Putting Maester training into the context of the Middle Ages, I don't think that Sam would have to earn ll that much more to be at Journeyman Maester level (or watever it is called) and if it works like in the crafts he could alredy have Master Maester skills in history, ravens, and any bookrelated stuff. Also we don't know what all Maester Aemon has been teaching him - could be his word is enough to get Sam credentials quickly. Also perhaps MaesterAemon coud be assigned the task of teaching him the rest of what he needs to know while he is back at the Wall (if Stannis and meisandre can be dealt with, preferably by having them move elsewhere.) Anither thought I have is that Sam may have come across particualry rare or previously unknown books at the Wall, or even in his father's library, which he could have studied on his own to master skills that are new to other Maester students.

I lOVE the Sam the Wizard idea, and if that were the case, are there any Maesters who are qualified to teach him? I would think not he would have to be the first of his kind of Maester and train himself. But f he isn;t the first, might Aemon be another like him, since he is so old and got his Maester's traiaing so long go. Could be that the Citadel has forgotten what Aemon knows since he has been gone at the wall so long.

For Arya, I have some ideas on how she might terinate her traiaing. She might kill someone she knows, and the FM find out and will kick her out of the training. The FM might intend to kill her, but she could escape back to Westeros. The warg/skinchanging stuff might also get her into trouble with the FM, or she could skinchange into someone important among thr FM and control that person to secureher own release. Or she could just change to a face they don't know and walk away if eventualy she will learn to be able to take the face of ayone she kills or any dead person she is near. Seems to me that once one reaxches a certain level of FM skills, te FM can;t domuch to control that person anymore.

[aryagonnakill]

Putting Maester training into the context of the Middle Ages, I don't think that Sam would have to earn ll that much more to be at Journeyman Maester level (or watever it is called) and if it works like in the crafts he could alredy have Master Maester skills in history, ravens, and any bookrelated stuff. Also we don't know what all Maester Aemon has been teaching him - could be his word is enough to get Sam credentials quickly. Also perhaps MaesterAemon coud be assigned the task of teaching him the rest of what he needs to know while he is back at the Wall (if Stannis and meisandre can be dealt with, preferably by having them move elsewhere.) Anither thought I have is that Sam may have come across particualry rare or previously unknown books at the Wall, or even in his father's library, which he could have studied on his own to master skills that are new to other Maester students.

I lOVE the Sam the Wizard idea, and if that were the case, are there any Maesters who are qualified to teach him? I would think not he would have to be the first of his kind of Maester and train himself. But f he isn;t the first, might Aemon be another like him, since he is so old and got his Maester's traiaing so long go. Could be that the Citadel has forgotten what Aemon knows since he has been gone at the wall so long.

For Arya, I have some ideas on how she might terinate her traiaing. She might kill someone she knows, and the FM find out and will kick her out of the training. The FM might intend to kill her, but she could escape back to Westeros. The warg/skinchanging stuff might also get her into trouble with the FM, or she could skinchange into someone important among thr FM and control that person to secureher own release. Or she could just change to a face they don't know and walk away if eventualy she will learn to be able to take the face of ayone she kills or any dead person she is near. Seems to me that once one reaxches a certain level of FM skills, te FM can;t domuch to control that person anymore.

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but Maester Aemon died. It was tragic. lol. Sam also DID for a fact bring books from the wall that the citadel does not have, or at least Maester Aemon thought they would not have them. He can indeed likely pass whatever raven test there is, history, mathematics, there is probably languages which we do not know if sam knows, but there has to be many more like warfare, medicine, some sort of geography or geometry to be able to survey, etc. We know Alleras who is like Sarella Sand got 3 links very quickly, so it is likely a lot of high borns can get a few but not all right away, I believe 3 stood out tho so maybe most nobles would only get 1 or 2.

[Drogon the Dread Reborn]

Maybe there wont be a time skip, but TWoW could just encompass a great time period, you know instead of many months maybe a couple years.

[Sharf]

GRRM definitely has some knotts to untie in terms of chronology. Arya is nearing the end of her training, so I don't see much issue there - it's Sam that's going to cause him the trouble. The only explanation I can see coming from this is that he simply doesnt finish training as a Maester. After all, Sam finds himself in a pretty tense situation at the Citadel, and it's easy to see him leaving early to go to the Wall or head for Danny.

[tmug]

Arya will be back to Westeros to assassinate someone for Varys or Illyrio. She will probably learn a great many things in this time.

[nightflyingmouse]

Reading about Arya and Sam's training during a five year gap is something I would have really enjoyed but *shrug* it didn't turn out that way.

I assumed that Arya's training got slightly fast forwarded by her "cheating" and using the cat's eyes to see when she was blind. Thereby passing that phase of the training/testing. With a five year training that wouldn't have been necessary.