Jump to content

Why were the kingsguard at the Tower of Joy?


Ser Lepus

Recommended Posts

I believe we can be sure that the KG were at the Tower of Joy, because Rhaegar told them to do so

That's the most obvious answer and the fact, whether the readers believe it or not.

The problem is why did they stayed there once Rhaegar and Aerys were dead, instead of joining Darry, Vyserys and Daenerys?

This is Westeros, not 21th century Earth. There is no telephone. Only Ravens.

They were there,

because The word of The King's assasination or The Prince's Fall or both, haven't reached that tower yet. That simple.

Plus, they had their orders as you said.... So they continued to stay.

((If anyone can give me some solid evidence from books --I want the page(s) too--

that 3 KG knew Both King and Heir slained, then I will take my assertion back))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe Aerys just ordered them to serve Rhaegar and instead of taking them to war he ordered them to protect his prisoner (Lyanna) and kill her if someone comes to take her.

Personally, I find the idea that Aerys "gave" these three to Rhaegar -- and that Rhaegar then ordered them to defend Lyanna and a possible heir to the throne -- quite plausible.

...

Also, as is noted by many characters in the books, this Kingsguard is cut from a different cloth than the one that serves Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen (the notable exception being Barristan Selmy). They take their vow to protect the king and the royal family seriously, and once given an order, they will carry it out...or die trying.

Except that it doesn't matter what order Aerys or Rhaegar or anyone else gave them. Barristan tells us the that highest, overriding vow of the KingsGuard is that one of them must always be with the King. With Aerys and Rhegar and Aegon dead, Viserys ought to be their king. Regardless of any other vow they might have made, according to Barristan, their highest priority should have been to get at least one of their number to Viserys' side. Unless he is not the king.

But they don't even try, yet they claim to be holding to their vows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't believe that you guys haven't mention the most important piece of information we have from the Tower of Joy!! The promise that Ned made to Lyanna is the decisive fact that means that was actually something there. This promise could have been to protect Jon, if R+L=J was true. In any case, we'll probably be 100% sure when Howland Reed is introduced by Martin in the next book.

I think everybody is taking that as a given. The question is about the baby's legitimacy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the most obvious answer and the fact, whether the readers believe it or not.

This is Westeros, not 21th century Earth. There is no telephone. Only Ravens.

They were there,

because The word of The King's assasination or The Prince's Fall or both, haven't reached that tower yet. That simple.

Plus, they had their orders as you said.... So they continued to stay.

((If anyone can give me some solid evidence from books --I want the page(s) too--

that 3 KG knew Both King and Heir slained, then I will take my assertion back))

There really isn't any proof that I'm aware of that the KG knew of everything that had transpired in Kings Landing. That being said it also isn't a stretch to say that they did know what happened. Judging by the reaction of the KG when Ned mentions Jaime killing Aerys they already knew about that. Certainly if Ned was the one that informed them that one of their own killed the King they would have been pretty surprised to hear about that. Ned was in Kings Landing to see Aerys laying in a pool of blood and Elia and the childrens bodies. It's not too difficult for me to believe that a Raven or lone messenger could have beaten Ned to the ToJ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except that it doesn't matter what order Aerys or Rhaegar or anyone else gave them. Barristan tells us the that highest, overriding vow of the KingsGuard is that one of them must always be with the King. With Aerys and Rhegar and Aegon dead, Viserys ought to be their king. Regardless of any other vow they might have made, according to Barristan, their highest priority should have been to get at least one of their number to Viserys' side. Unless he is not the king.

But they don't even try, yet they claim to be holding to their vows.

I think it comes down to whether being with the new king (assuming its Viserys) was more important or following their old king's direct orders. Or maybe they just figured that it was impossible for them to get to Viserys so they might as well stay at the Tower of Joy.

I think Lyanna's blood is pretty damning. Either one of the Kingsguard killer her or she had a baby there. There's no other possibility of how her blood got there (atleast I can't think of any). And the kingsguard would have only killed her is Rhaegar had told them to. Maybe he was thinking Robert would be the first one to come for her and it was one of those'if I can't have her no one can' thing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barristan tells us the that highest, overriding vow of the KingsGuard is that one of them must always be with the King.

Except, that is contradicted by LC Jaime holding a meeting of the KG and none of them are guarding Tommen. Tommen is being guarded by Garlan Tyrell. Jaime served in the KG of 4 kings, no reason to believe that Jaime has changed this aspect of the KG.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the most obvious answer and the fact, whether the readers believe it or not.

This is Westeros, not 21th century Earth. There is no telephone. Only Ravens.

They were there,

because The word of The King's assasination or The Prince's Fall or both, haven't reached that tower yet. That simple.

Plus, they had their orders as you said.... So they continued to stay.

((If anyone can give me some solid evidence from books --I want the page(s) too--

that 3 KG knew Both King and Heir slained, then I will take my assertion back))

This is nearly incoherent, unless you haven't actually read the scene. They KNEW ALL OF IT, including who was with Viserys. Did you actually read about the confrontation?

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. “We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell. “When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” “I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.” “Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne. “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold. Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. “And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. “No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Unless you are looking for Gerold to say, "I already know absolutely everything, Ned," I am not sure what "proof" you are looking for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it comes down to whether being with the new king (assuming its Viserys) was more important or following their old king's direct orders.

Protecting the king takes priority over everything else,a s has been stated repeatedly. Besides, given that there were three KG, they could easily do both - fulfill their old orders AND protect the king, since the vow is considered as fulfilled if at least ONE of them is with the king.

Or maybe they just figured that it was impossible for them to get to Viserys so they might as well stay at the Tower of Joy.

Oath are not to be fulfilled only when it is possible or convenient. Their duty is to get to the king or die trying

Except, that is contradicted by LC Jaime holding a meeting of the KG and none of them are guarding Tommen. Tommen is being guarded by Garlan Tyrell. Jaime served in the KG of 4 kings, no reason to believe that Jaime has changed this aspect of the KG.

It is explicitely stated there that the seven of them conferring is an exceptional situation and only for the shortest time possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Lyanna's blood is pretty damning.

Either one of the Kingsguard killed her or she had a baby there.

There's no other possibility of how her blood got there (atleast I can't think of any).

And the kingsguard would have only killed her if Rhaegar had told them to... Maybe... it was one of those 'if I can't have her no one can' thing?

Hmmmm I already got my suspicions about KG wounded Lyanna,

but my guess was a little bit different... The wound and blood could occur in an escaping attempt...

But yours is also plausible and never thought that way.

Or maybe they just figured that it was impossible for them,

to get to Viserys so they might as well stay at the Tower of Joy.

If (and its a big if) they were reached the news of the KL... That might be the case.

This is nearly incoherent, unless you haven't actually read the scene.

First of all, I have read that dream, more than once.

Second of all ; When i asked the proof of those 3 KG's knowledge about the recent events,

I should have said that, <<proof other than this famous story>>

On the off chance that, if perhaps... something went unnoticed from my eyes.

I thought, it was obvious what I was referring in my previous post,

but Thanks to your delightful reminder, I got it now that it wasn't.

They KNEW ALL OF IT, including who was with Viserys.

==> No.

That dream is all about Eddard's informing the 3 KG. It is all over the context.

Perhaps, One, can argue that, Rhaegar's death news had arrived and known by them.

But their knowledge about; nor the King's assasination neither Viserys' fled, can be understood from the text.

What you say is nothing more than an assumption.

For me, it was pretty much a repartee smartass KG,

overconfidently trying to get the upperhand in the conversation, before his dying fight. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Which is definitely not a proof of "KG guarding the royal baby aka Jon" theory. Nowhere near it.

They could very well be there, to keep an eye on Lyanna, by Rhaegar's orders, in case of any escaping attempt...

The Blood in the bed could very well be there, because of a Wound...

A wound very well be occured, either by KGs intervention or herself, during (1 of ?) Lyanna's attempt of escape...

Which is why The KGs were there...

To lock her up and keep an eye on her... For the sake of Prince's delusions...

The delusions... about "Her being the mother of his Third Dragon"...

Which made her Royal prisoner... Which made her important...

And why the KGs were there, in the first place...

Can you tell my assumption is less plausible than yours ??

From where I stand, it is equally possible.

Yes mine is an assumption too, just like yours... just like all "Jon is a Targ" believers.

Hopefully my point is clear this time.

Just for the clarification,

I'm not ruling out the baby possibility.

All I'm trying to accomplish here, to show that, there is nothing certain here. Acting like it is, drive me nuts.

"Jon is a Targ" ... "Jon is Rhaegar's son"... "Jon is Lyanna's son"...

All speculation. Just and Pure Speculation.

PS : If you wanna know what I believe...

I believe that Jon's father is probably Eddard or Brandon.

And his mother... Noone knows except Eddard it seems since he was the one who brought him to Winterfell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Given that Stannis didn't take Dragonstone until sometime after Daenerys was born (which itself was nine months after the Sack), we know that this is false. But even if it were true, it is still the Kingsguard's job to at least attempt to reach Viserys. The fact that they might fail or die in the process should not enter into their decision to uphold their vow, at least if they're as honorable as Ned says they are.

First of all, i must sa i belive R + L = J.

However i think we should consider others explanations to the tower of joy. Maybe R+L=J is false,

And, your post made me think.

U said that if R+L=J is false, then it was the kingsguard job to try to break the lines to enter dragon stone.

It was also said (not in your post) that a revenge theorie is not plausible becuase, as far as the kings guard knew, Ned could arrive with 500 hundred men,

OK now I see a bug in R+L=J theorie.

If it is the KG job to protect the king and the royal family, why did the 3 kings guard decide to make a last stand agaisnt Ned.

He could arrive with seven or five hundred men to fight, Even against sevend the Kingsguard was in more than 2-1 disavantege.

IF IT WAS THEIR JOB TO PROTECT BABY JON, why didnt they try to flee with him, to hide pregnant lyanna in a secret place, not in Rhaegars favorite place.

They knew they would be defetead, and their royal baby would fall in the hands od the usurper.

The KingsGuard last stand seems a little strange, if we think that way, doesnt it?

I mean if they had no chance to win the battle in the first place, to fulfill their oath they should have tried to flee with Lyanna or hide her somewhere, unless they were pinned in the tower, wich doesnt seems the case

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is explicitely stated there that the seven of them conferring is an exceptional situation and only for the shortest time possible.

No, it is not explicity stated in the paragraph, its just a KG meeting with the LC of the KG. Also, its only six KG, because Arys Oakhheart is in Dorne guarding Myrcella.

These meetings are common enough that they have a standard operating procedure for them.

Quoting from the paragraph:

"Who guards the King? said Jaime

"My brothers Ser Osney and Ser Osfryd" said said Ser Osmond

"And my brother Ser Garlan," said the Knight of Flowers.

"Will they keep him safe?"

"They will, my lord."

"Be seated, then." The words were ritual. Before the seven could meet in session, the King's safety must be assured.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, it is not explicity stated in the paragraph, its just a KG meeting with the LC of the KG. Also, its only six KG, because Arys Oakhheart is in Dorne guarding Myrcella.

These meetings are common enough that they have a standard operating procedure for them.

Quoting from the paragraph:

"Who guards the King? said Jaime

"My brothers Ser Osney and Ser Osfryd" said said Ser Osmond

"And my brother Ser Garlan," said the Knight of Flowers.

"Will they keep him safe?"

"They will, my lord."

"Be seated, then." The words were ritual. Before the seven could meet in session, the King's safety must be assured.

Pardon, then. Not explicitely but implicitely. They arrange protection for the time they confer (how many of them is of no importance) and as soon as the presence of all of them is not required, one leaves to guard the king.

First of all, i must sa i belive R + L = J.

However i think we should consider others explanations to the tower of joy. Maybe R+L=J is false,

And, your post made me think.

U said that if R+L=J is false, then it was the kingsguard job to try to break the lines to enter dragon stone.

It was also said (not in your post) that a revenge theorie is not plausible becuase, as far as the kings guard knew, Ned could arrive with 500 hundred men,

OK now I see a bug in R+L=J theorie.

If it is the KG job to protect the king and the royal family, why did the 3 kings guard decide to make a last stand agaisnt Ned.

He could arrive with seven or five hundred men to fight, Even against sevend the Kingsguard was in more than 2-1 disavantege.

IF IT WAS THEIR JOB TO PROTECT BABY JON, why didnt they try to flee with him, to hide pregnant lyanna in a secret place, not in Rhaegars favorite place.

They knew they would be defetead, and their royal baby would fall in the hands od the usurper.

The KingsGuard last stand eems a little strange, if we think that way, dont it?

The thing is, how long prior did they know that Ned was about to arrive? Up till then, the location was secret, definitely not known as Rhaegar's favourite place. Arranging an escape with a newborn (plus his wetnurse) and/or with a dying woman is not that easy

That dream is all about Eddard's informing the 3 KG. It is all over the context.

Perhaps, One, can argue that, Rhaegar's death news had arrived and known by them.

But their knowledge about; nor the King's assasination neither Viserys' fled, can be understood from the text.

What you say is nothing more than a assumption.

What matters is not what Eddard says but how they respond, and these are not the reactions of people who have jsut learned such terrible, world-shattering news, no matter how badass they were.

Oh, and BTW, the KG presence is not the basis for the theory that Jon is a Targ; it's the basis for him being a legit Targ. For mere R+L, there's a wee bit more to it.

PS : If you wanna know what I believe... I believe that Jon's father is probably Eddard or Brandon.

And his mother... Noone knows except Eddard it seems since he was the one who brought him to Winterfell.

In that case, Apple Martini's test question: if Eddard (or Brandon) is the father, what's so damned supersecret about Jon's mother?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lord Might Tywin--

It doesn't matter if the Kingsguard knew about Aerys' death before Ned arrived. What's important is that they know once Ned tells them, and yet they still insist that their place is at the tower, and not with Viserys.

PS : If you wanna know what I believe... I believe that Jon's father is probably Eddard or Brandon.

And his mother... Noone knows except Eddard it seems since he was the one who brought him to Winterfell.

First of all, Brandon can't be the father, as he died before Jon was conceived.

Second of all, if you think Ned is the father, then please answer these questions, in addition to the question Ygrain asks above:

1) What were the promises Ned made to Lyanna, and what price did he pay to keep them?

2) What are these lies that Ned says he has been living for fourteen years?

3) What does the vision of the blue flower growing from a wall of ice symbolize, if not Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

4) When Ned goes to the trouble of listing all of his children in his head from oldest to youngest, why does he leave out Jon? And please don't say that he was only listing his trueborn children. The context rules that out.

I'd also like to add that it is highly unlikely that Lyanna is a kidnapping victim, for multiple reasons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lord Might Tywin--

It doesn't matter if the Kingsguard knew about Aerys' death before Ned arrived. What's important is that they know once Ned tells them, and yet they still insist that their place is at the tower, and not with Viserys.

They don't say their place is not with Viserys, they say that they do not flee. Their objection to Darry's actions are not that he has the wrong prince but that he is fleeing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They don't say their place is not with Viserys, they say that they do not flee. Their objection to Darry's actions are not that he has the wrong prince but that he is fleeing.

The Kingsguard don't swear their vows to stand and fight, they swear to protect the King. Regardless of how happy they are about running if they have a tenth of the honor their reputation states they should be looking for Viserys the second they hear Aerys is dead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They don't say their place is not with Viserys, they say that they do not flee. Their objection to Darry's actions are not that he has the wrong prince but that he is fleeing.

Look, we've gone over this before. The fact that the Kingsguard are refusing to flee supports the notion that they are guarding an heir. They don't swear an oath never to flee in the face of an enemy, the swear an oath never to flee when protecting the king. Their refusal to flee therefore indicates they are protecting a king.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But they directly compare themselves to Darry! Who was fleeing with the boy he believed to be the heir! And they still say they would not do it.

Because they know that Viserys is not the heir. Thus by joining him they would be fleeing because they would be abandoning their rightful king.

If GRRM just had the 3KG say "Well Darry has run off with the wrong boy; Viserys isn't the king" then that would be a bit of a give away, wouldn't it? GRRM makes us work hard at putting the pieces together, he doesn't just spoon-feed us information, and the 3KG comments in this passage are a bit like one of those logic puzzles where you have to work out what isn't to work out what is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Their objection to Darry's actions are not that he has the wrong prince but that he is fleeing.

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

I don't know that they're necessarily objecting to Darry's actions. I've always interpreted this particular part of the conversation as Whent and Hightower making clear to Ned that the Kingsguard and Darry have different duties. Willem Darry was entrusted with the care of Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys; therefore, it was his duty to see them safely to Dragonstone once King's Landing was threatened by the rebels. Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, and Oswell Whent were entrusted to defend whatever/whoever was inside the Tower of Joy; therefore it was their duty to not flee. If they somehow objected or thought less of Darry, I don't think Whent would describe him as "a good man and true."

I'm one of those that believes that the Kingsguard presence at the Tower of Joy indicates that a Targaryen heir to the throne was there. Yes, news can travel slow in Westeros, but it stands to reason that Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were already aware of Aerys's and Rhaegar's deaths. For one, they don't seem taken aback when Ned tells them. And second, a fair amount of time elapses between the deaths of Aerys and Rhaegar and the confrontation at the Tower. After Rhaegar's death, Ned still had to march south to King's Landing. He then left King's Landing to aid Stannis and lift the siege of Storm's End. And then he had to make his way to the Tower of Joy. That's plenty of time for a raven to reach the Kingsguard, or for them to hear the news from someone who did receive a raven. If they viewed Viserys as the rightful king, they would have made their way to him (in the same way that Barristan Selmy eventually decided to seek out Daenerys).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...