From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa IV

[brashcandy]

Still didn't beat my typo back when. :)

It's true. That remains in the typo hall of fame. :)

[Woman of War]

I think the purpose for the present time being of the Tyrion/Sansa marriage was to give Sansa plot armor against being used for other marriage arrangements or sexual encounters in order to preserve Sansa's virginity.

Virginity is a theme Martin seems kind of obsessed with and this is a double edged topic. Of course no one sane (in RL) would want a twelve, thirteen or maybe even fourteen year old girl to have sex with a man so much older. But the principle of determining a woman's value by her being a "maiden" that goes from the property of a father into the property of a husband is of course hugely sexist and a misigynistic ideology all over the world in past and in present. And having sex here is no more that putting a mark of ownership on a woman, girls in westeros are not even expected to enjoy (their first) sex, they merely go from one owner to the next.

Martin's emphasis on virginity concerning all young girls and women gives me the impression that he either subconsciously overuses that topic in a traditionally sexist manner or that, when the story continues, he will deconstruct "maidenhood" in a most significant, maybe even cruel, way.

So Martin had to find a character (the author probably enjoyed adding to Tyrion's complicated storyline) who would NOT demand consummation in a believable manner while leaving the future of that relationship between the two characters totally open (for us readers, I guess GRRM himself may know where he is aiming to) not determining plot developments that would limit his readers' imaginations in the books to come.

Apart from giving us with that marriage wonderfully written chapters about human misery and what cruelties even well intended people can do to each other........and so on.

About Cersei and Sansa: I too got the impression that Cersei had developed a queer relationship of surrogate daughter and instructiong mother towards Sansa. She constantly works at taking down Sansa's innocence armor. I call it innocence ARMOR because Sansa very often consciously decides not to see things the way they are, choosing "not knowing" as armor the same way Daenerys does with not knowing her family's true history. While that kind of armor starts crumbling inside Sansa it here is visible to Cersei in a most provocative manner. Sansa is seen by Cersei as the girl she herself could never be: content to be naive (something Sansa would be if her situation would not make it impossible for her). Cersei uses her as experimentation doll, in a way well intending, begrudging her that juvenile innocence while wanting to prepare her for a life with ninety percent mess and ten percent joy, and the joy part will be the messiest one. Reminds me of "Mommy Dearest", the movie with Faye Dunaway about Joan Crawford and her daughter, that terrible, terrible adoptive mother-daughter relationship.

I wonder if Cersei is truly convinced that Sansa had an active part in murdering Joffrey.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think the purpose for the present time being of the Tyrion/Sansa marriage was to give Sansa plot armor against being used for other marriage arrangements or sexual encounters in order to preserve Sansa's virginity.

Virginity is a theme Martin seems kind of obsessed with and this is a double edged topic. Of course no one sane (in RL) would want a twelve, thirteen or maybe even fourteen year old girl to have sex with a man so much older. But the principle of determining a woman's value by her being a "maiden" that goes from the property of a father into the property of a husband is of course hugely sexist and a misigynistic ideology all over the world in past and in present. And having sex here is no more that putting a mark of ownership on a woman, girls in westeros are not even expected to enjoy (their first) sex, they merely go from one owner to the next.

Martin's emphasis on virginity concerning all young girls and women gives me the impression that he either subconsciously overuses that topic in a traditionally sexist manner or that, when the story continues, he will deconstruct "maidenhood" in a most significant, maybe even cruel, way.

I agree that the topic of maidenhood and all what that brings with it appears a lot. Then on the other hand you also have the cheap whores who also appear everywhere and it becomes a bit WTF (I always wondered how a country could sustain that amount of whores, in fact a lot of fantasy countries seem to sustain a huge population of whores, even my marxist-feminist hero China Mieville has a Horde of Whores. For shame.).

It's fairly clear maidenhood is more important among the nobility since they want to be sure that in an arranged marrriage, the children are the "real deal" and not something like Joffrey "Baratheon", i.e. it is a tool to control female sexuality since otherwise, anyone could be the children's father. Which makes sense in a world where contraception doesn't really exist*** and where bloodlines are important.

That said, it's fairly clear this is preached more than practised, since Gatehouse Ami who got married off to Lancel got her nickname from "raising her portcullis for any man" and that didn't seem to make her infinitely undesirable as a wife. The same with some other nobly born woman (a Redwyne? Florent? It was someone southern) who had already had a bastard and then wasn't a maiden, but at least she was fertile which is seen as a plus. I think we also get in a Jamie chapter that Black Walder Frey had shagged almost all the females available to him in house Frey.

Looking at Westeros as a whole though, it's fairly obvious this doesn't always work out with the arranged marriages. Jamie's aunt Genna is married to a Frey but I think it's said somewhere she flirts a lot, but nobody in their right mind would accuse her of not having trueborn children. Not because it would be far fetched, but because she apparently is a bit scary and has a lot of power, while her husband is a bumbling fool. And this is not described as something inherently negative.

It also seems clear that some women had more freedom than others when it came to choosing their spouse. Not all fathers would force a marriage the daughter did not like. Ned's father had "southron ambitions" so it made sense for him to arrange a marriage with complete strangers, but you also have lady Weynwood, who won't have Harry the Heir marry someone he doesn't fancy. Ned seems like he agreed to the Joffrey match because Robert wanted it, but that later on when he talks about marrying Sansa off to someone, he wants someone "brave, gentle and strong", i.e. he would like to see her with a man she can come to love, and not marry her off for the sake of ambition.

Regarding that women "aren't supposed to enjoy it", I don't know. There doesn't seem to be a pervasive opinion that women don't want sex, or that they are uncapable of enjoying it or that they shouldn't. Nor that it is inherently sinful. The septon travelling with Brienne only mentions that he sinned when he "took women against their will", i.e. rape. Sex itself does not seem to be viewed that harshly as long as both parts are interested in it. I think it's mentioned in a Jamie chapter that if the husband doesn't give any attention to his wife, it's more or less understood that she will find other lovers.

Personally, I hope at least one character in the series subverts the whole "innocent maiden" thing and I hope it will be our sly Sansa/Alayne at some point. I have hopes that Myranda and Mya Stone will have a good influence on Sansa/Alyane and make her more grounded, confident and more of a realist. Mya does a lot of pretty tough physical stuff, like trekking up and down the mountains; while Myranda can assist Sansa in "how to deal with boys and what goes where" bit (I'm a huge Myranda fan).

Oh and - I just got to the episode in Game of Thrones where we get LF exposition in a brothel and it was so incredibly creepy I just couldn't believe it. :ack: Book LF is creepy as hell, but TV series LF is just so vomitously creepy it catapults the entire freak-love he has for Sansa into the stratosphere. The fact that she might be stuck there with him in the Vale for a couple of years due to winter is just....ugh. On the other hand, from a plot perspective, they really chose to lay on the heavy sauce with regards to LF's sick fascination with Cat (which he just transfers to Sansa) so I wonder if it won't drive LF into crazy mode that Harry will eventually marry Sansa and have his naughty way with her. We've seen before how bonkers LF gets around Sansa when he kissed her in the snow, and he keeps doing it later on too. Maybe it will be LF trying to "claim" the maidenhead ahead of Harry? I'm leaning more and more towards this actually. LF will make a freak move before his plot is hatched.

***Tansy tea seems to be an abortificant, but then we learn that Jeyne Westerling was drinking it a lot while shagging Robb so maybe it works as both? Although I wouldn't be too keen on the long term effect of that.

EDIT: Christ onna bike the spelling mistakes

[Towel]

I just got to the episode in Game of Thrones where we get LF exposition in a brothel and it was so incredibly creepy I just couldn't believe it. :ack: Book LF is creepy as hell, but TV series LF is just so vomitously creepy it catapults the entire freak-love he has for Sansa into the stratosphere.

God that tirade creeped me out.

[bgona]

Cersei is scared of the younger queen that will replace her (as we see later with Margaery who she can't contol). She has Sansa under control, scared of Cersei, captive, with very low control over her own live.

GRRM marrying Sansa with Tyrion is a statement of the relevance of Sansa. But it is courious that the other possible bloom was Lancel that we believe that has been injuried of certsin way that he can't use his manhood.

Another thing that maybe has been discussed, if so then no replay at all. The behaviour of the Tyrell girls at the wedding. IMO, that demostrates that before they were geting Sansa in the spiderweb so she can trus them. If any of them speak to Sansa as Ser Galan did then they would have proove that they worried Sansa. But none of them spoke. And after again she feld isolated from women contact.

About Shae as her maid. Sansa didn't have a clue, she even miss her when she was changing clothes to escape. But I agree with you that was an awful decision of Tyrion, showing again that he was selfish, lack of care about Sansa feelings or Shae feelings. In addition, having your mistress so near does't help to improve your marriage.

[voodooqueen126]

Hmn all the chapters until Sansa's chapter at Joffrey's Wedding are narrated by Tyrion.

In these chapters we see Sansa exclusively through Tyrion's eyes. He sees her as stupid, treacherous, naive, overly innocent and cold (the courtesy armour). Not at all like warm and loving and funny Tysha or the sexy Shae.

Does anybody else find this similar to Humbert Humbert in Lolita? How we only ever see Dolly as "Lolita" because we see her through Humbert's eyes. Humbert's portrait is not very flattering: he sees Lolita as crass, banal, vulgar, money grubbing little American. Not at all like his intellectual, sweet and cosmopolitan Annabel?

[1234567]

Also, despite his "love" for Shae, he wants Sansa. But at the same time when he describes what little he knows of Sansa in his thoughts and his speech, it is invariably negative. It is only the imaginary Sansa that he thinks lies behind the courtesy armour that he wants.

Also he is placing both Sansa and Shae at risk by keeping Shae there. He never questions how Symeon found out that he was in a relationship with Shae. Also he was perfectly prepared to kick Shae to the kerb before the wedding when he was imagining having his young devoted wife, and it is only when he discovers she won't play the act the other women in his life have played that he goes back to Shae. Neither woman seems to actually matter to him as people, they only matter they him for what they give him.

Sansa has no emotional support from him and he is looking to use her as a crutch to his ego like he does with Shae. I think this chapter really shows how miserable the marriage had made Sansa and how much she doesn't express things, but keeps everything internalized.

[Fragile Bird]

Also, despite his "love" for Shae, he wants Sansa. But at the same time when he describes what little he knows of Sansa in his thoughts and his speech, it is invariably negative. It is only the imaginary Sansa that he thinks lies behind the courtesy armour that he wants.

Also he is placing both Sansa and Shae at risk by keeping Shae there. He never questions how Symeon found out that he was in a relationship with Shae. Also he was perfectly prepared to kick Shae to the kerb before the wedding when he was imagining having his young devoted wife, and it is only when he discovers she won't play the act the other women in his life have played that he goes back to Shae. Neither woman seems to actually matter to him as people, they only matter they him for what they give him.

Rapsie, Tyrion walked into the whorehouse and Shae was waiting for him. Symeon was there entertaining that night. I can't imagine there are too many dwarves who can stroll into a high end hookers' joint with a high ender waiting for him, accompanied by a man at arms, other than the acting Hand. Symeon was stupid, being indiscreet with a Lannister.

[1234567]

Rapsie, Tyrion walked into the whorehouse and Shae was waiting for him. Symeon was there entertaining that night. I can't imagine there are too many dwarves who can stroll into a high end hookers' joint with a high ender waiting for him, accompanied by a man at arms, other than the acting Hand. Symeon was stupid, being indiscreet with a Lannister.

Thanks Fragile Bird. I must have missed that scene!

[Lyanna Stark]

God that tirade creeped me out.

Too right, I just couldn't get over how super creepy Littlefinger came across. I mean, I have read the books at least 2-3 times by now (apart from AFfC and ADwD) so I knew he was a creep and most likely a perv, but that they actually chose to portray him like that is just....woah. Since I believe the TV series will more or less follow the books correctly, it will mean that it's no longer speculation that LF is.

* totally mad for Cat

* has transferred his freak devotion to Sansa 100%

It really makes me wonder how safe Sansa is with him in the Vale, since she really went out of the ashes into the fire, in some ways. I have no hesitation that LF's plans for her are as far away from honourable as they possibly could.

It makes me even more certain that he will do anything to end the Sansa/Tyrion marriage...say for instance spend all his lovely wealth on hiring a Faceless (wo)Man to send into Dany's camp and murder a certain imp? ;)

[Elba the Intoner]

Also, despite his "love" for Shae, he wants Sansa. But at the same time when he describes what little he knows of Sansa in his thoughts and his speech, it is invariably negative. It is only the imaginary Sansa that he thinks lies behind the courtesy armour that he wants.

Also he is placing both Sansa and Shae at risk by keeping Shae there. He never questions how Symeon found out that he was in a relationship with Shae. Also he was perfectly prepared to kick Shae to the kerb before the wedding when he was imagining having his young devoted wife, and it is only when he discovers she won't play the act the other women in his life have played that he goes back to Shae. Neither woman seems to actually matter to him as people, they only matter they him for what they give him.

Sansa has no emotional support from him and he is looking to use her as a crutch to his ego like he does with Shae. I think this chapter really shows how miserable the marriage had made Sansa and how much she doesn't express things, but keeps everything internalized.

Regarding the sentence that I highlighted in bold, yes it is very true that Tyrion is projecting an idealized woman onto his "want" for both Sansa and Shae, but this makes so much sense when we consider that he has never experienced a woman's love (except briefly from Tysha who at this point he thinks was a whore). Rapsie I think it was you who posted a few pages back that Tyrion and Samwell were similar in that they both had to deal with fathers who treated them badly because neither was turned out to be the son that either man wanted, yet Samwell is a better person. While it is true that Samwell and Tyrion have similar experiences with their fathers, there is a major difference between them in that Samwell still had the love of his mother and the nurturing from her which Tyrion never had because his mother died when he was born. Samwell also had two sisters and we don't have any indication that they treated him as badly as Cersei treated Tyrion growing up. Given all this, it's no wonder that Tyrion is looking for a pure, ideal love from a woman and hoping he'll get it from any woman he interacts with. I can't hate Tyrion for this as I just find it pathetic and sad. I pity him as Sansa does.

[1234567]

@ Elba the Intoner

Excellent point about the difference having a loving mother and two caring sisters make. Indeed Tyrion has had a bad family experience, although I think given Tywin's nature, it could have been worse. The only friendly female figure seems to be his Aunt Genna and we don't know how much contact they had, while he grew up. I find it difficult to pity him in this instant because he has forced Sansa to marry him and is still counting on the death of her brother to help him steal her home.

I don't hate him for his delusions, as they are sad and make him a tragic figure and certainly the Tysha experience has deeply effected him, however his actions have helped make Sansa's life worse and destroy a marriage that may have made her happy and kept her safe from Joff, simply to benefit himself.

[Cerys]

@ Elba the Intoner

Excellent point about the difference having a loving mother and two caring sisters make. Indeed Tyrion has had a bad family experience, although I think given Tywin's nature, it could have been worse. The only friendly female figure seems to be his Aunt Genna and we don't know how much contact they had, while he grew up. I find it difficult to pity him in this instant because he has forced Sansa to marry him and is still counting on the death of her brother to help him steal her home.

I don't hate him for his delusions, as they are sad and make him a tragic figure and certainly the Tysha experience has deeply effected him, however his actions have helped make Sansa's life worse and destroy a marriage that may have made her happy and kept her safe from Joff, simply to benefit himself.

I agree with this post.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Okay, I realize this is going to make some people gag and possibly scream aloud, but a possibility has crossed my mind.

We have all assumed all this while that LF is an evil perv, that he has dangerous and dishonorable intentions toward Sansa, and that she must somehow be broken from his clutches, even if that means she has to murder him.

What if we are totally wrong?

Just to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment ...many Sansa fans do not see Sandor's obvious feelings/desire for Sansa to be pervy, so why would LF's necessarily be so offensive? It is a bit weird that he was in love with her mother first, but that does not make it impossible for his feelings for Sansa to be based on her own merits. If she had been Cat's daughter, but dull as porridge, stupid as a stump, or had warts all over her face, I doubt he would have decided to involve himself with her. It cannot all be JUST because she is Cat's daughter.

Also, his intentions are obviously first and foremost to keep her safe. And while he has stolen a few kisses, he has not simply helped himself to her, which he could easily have done at any time. He could be keeping her in a locked room and treating her like Ramsay treats Jeyne/Arya, but instead he has restrained himself to a kiss here and there. To me, that indicates the actions of a man who wants to win her, not force her. His method of going about it is exceedingly odd (most suitors do not arrange a betrothal for the object of their affection) but perhaps his intentions really are to put Sansa in a situation where she will be safe, married to a suitable man close to her own age, and have as much shot at happiness as anyone else in an arranged marriage. I do not doubt that he plans to use her to advance his own political schemes, but frankly that doesn't make him much different from any other father in Westeros marrying off his highborn daughter.

Lastly ...what if Sansa actually ends up developing feelings for LF and chooses to be with him? He is not as exciting as Sandor, but Sandor has nothing to offer her, while LF has saved her life, protected her, treated her as the intelligent young woman she is, and as Myranda says, is now considered quite a marriage catch himself. I don't think Sansa would marry him just because he is a catch, but what it represents - some measure of safety and stability - would probably appeal to her. And if she has to marry somebody, she may prefer the man she knows and seems to have no fear of, despite his penchant for throwing inconvenient wives off of mountains; rather than a complete unknown who could turn out to be Joff 2.0.

I realize this goes against every hopeful and romantic dream we have for Sansa (or that she has had for herself) but honestly, far worse things could happen to her than marrying the Lord Paramount of the Trident. It might be risky politically given the war and upheaval that are coming, but that will be true of any man she marries - they risk ending up on the losing side.

Yes, there is all this foreshadowing about Sandor and Tyrion, and the whole father/daughter ruse makes it a bit creepy, but he is NOT her father, and I think that it is at least a valid possibility to consider as we go forward (however much our very souls cry out against it). After all, GRRM is not going to give Sansa the un-gay version of Loras Tyrell to love and cherish forever, just because that would be a lovely way for her life to work out. I think we need to be prepared for all possible realities, and it is a very possible reality that Sansa will become just politically astute enough to recognize that she needs to marry for survival more than for songs, but not quite politically astute enough to see what all LF is REALLY capable of.

Or, maybe she will simply refuse to see it, a la Sansa. She already knows he can kill without a qualm and calmly have another man tortured and killed for it, that he conspired with Lysa to murder Jon Arryn, and was at least halfway responsible for Joff's death (killing again in the process and again leaving another man to take the fall). As far as I can tell, none of this has caused her to have any fear of or concerns about him whatsoever. She willingly gives him kisses (although not the passiomate ones he would like), displays no fear or reluctance when interacting with him, has had no fearful or distrustful or frightened thoughts about him that we know of, and will sit calmly in his lap while they converse, while showing no repugnance or discomfort.

I'm just sayin' ...

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Okay, I realize this is going to make some people gag and possibly scream aloud, but a possibility has crossed my mind.

We have all assumed all this while that LF is an evil perv, that he has dangerous and dishonorable intentions toward Sansa, and that she must somehow be broken from his clutches, even if that means she has to murder him.

What if we are totally wrong?

Just to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment ...many Sansa fans do not see Sandor's obvious feelings/desire for Sansa to be pervy, so why would LF's necessarily be so offensive? It is a bit weird that he was in love with her mother first, but that does not make it impossible for his feelings for Sansa to be based on her own merits. If she had been Cat's daughter, but dull as porridge, stupid as a stump, or had warts all over her face, I doubt he would have decided to involve himself with her. It cannot all be JUST because she is Cat's daughter.

Also, his intentions are obviously first and foremost to keep her safe. And while he has stolen a few kisses, he has not simply helped himself to her, which he could easily have done at any time. He could be keeping her in a locked room and treating her like Ramsay treats Jeyne/Arya, but instead he has restrained himself to a kiss here and there. To me, that indicates the actions of a man who wants to win her, not force her. His method of going about it is exceedingly odd (most suitors do not arrange a betrothal for the object of their affection) but perhaps his intentions really are to put Sansa in a situation where she will be safe, married to a suitable man close to her own age, and have as much shot at happiness as anyone else in an arranged marriage. I do not doubt that he plans to use her to advance his own political schemes, but frankly that doesn't make him much different from any other father in Westeros marrying off his highborn daughter.

Lastly ...what if Sansa actually ends up developing feelings for LF and chooses to be with him? He is not as exciting as Sandor, but Sandor has nothing to offer her, while LF has saved her life, protected her, treated her as the intelligent young woman she is, and as Myranda says, is now considered quite a marriage catch himself. I don't think Sansa would marry him just because he is a catch, but what it represents - some measure of safety and stability - would probably appeal to her. And if she has to marry somebody, she may prefer the man she knows and seems to have no fear of, despite his penchant for throwing inconvenient wives off of mountains; rather than a complete unknown who could turn out to be Joff 2.0.

I realize this goes against every hopeful and romantic dream we have for Sansa (or that she has had for herself) but honestly, far worse things could happen to her than marrying the Lord Paramount of the Trident. It might be risky politically given the war and upheaval that are coming, but that will be true of any man she marries - they risk ending up on the losing side.

Yes, there is all this foreshadowing about Sandor and Tyrion, and the whole father/daughter ruse makes it a bit creepy, but he is NOT her father, and I think that it is at least a valid possibility to consider as we go forward (however much our very souls cry out against it). After all, GRRM is not going to give Sansa the un-gay version of Loras Tyrell to love and cherish forever, just because that would be a lovely way for her life to work out. I think we need to be prepared for all possible realities, and it is a very possible reality that Sansa will become just politically astute enough to recognize that she needs to marry for survival more than for songs, but not quite politically astute enough to see what all LF is REALLY capable of.

Or, maybe she will simply refuse to see it, a la Sansa. She already knows he can kill without a qualm and calmly have another man tortured and killed for it, that he conspired with Lysa to murder Jon Arryn, and was at least halfway responsible for Joff's death (killing again in the process and again leaving another man to take the fall). As far as I can tell, none of this has caused her to have any fear of or concerns about him whatsoever. She willingly gives him kisses (although not the passiomate ones he would like), displays no fear or reluctance when interacting with him, has had no fearful or distrustful or frightened thoughts about him that we know of, and will sit calmly in his lap while they converse, while showing no repugnance or discomfort.

I'm just sayin' ...

[Lyanna Stark]

@ Ladyofthenorth

Good post :)

The reason I think LF would be a bad choice is because he betrayed Ned, he murdered Sansa's aunt, he means to kill sweetrobin and he's just in general, a very immoral man. He will do anything; trick, cheat and lie, to get ahead.

That, to me, is the main reason Sansa and LF would not be a good match. She even notes herself that he tells her lies. Sweet lies, but lies all the same. It's good that she learns to be more ruthless and more cunning, but in the end, I think Sansa has, and needs to have for her character to work, some sort of moral compass. LF doesn't have a moral compass at all.

As for what his intentions are, I just find him creepy and pervy, since his concerns, as Sansa also noted, was not to keep her safe in Kings Landing while she was beaten. He just made sure she was eventually shipped off so he could have her and allegedly use her as a "card" in his game of thrones. During her awful time in KL he did not move a muscle to help her (unlike the two "monsters", Tyrion and Sandor). What LF feels for her can never be love, since he does not love her as a person, but as an object, or an idea. He obsesses about her, but has problems seeing her as an actual person.

I actually like him best when he's being more fatherly/mentor like, which works better I think. That rarely lasts for long though before his creepy Cat fetish comes out to play. :lol:

(Might just add here that I absolutely love the character LF and it's endlessly amusing to try and guess what he is up to :) Plus at this stage, despite being a terrible lying, cheating perv, Sansa could do worse than to learn a few tricks from him.)

[Wouter]

Was anyone else peeved that Tyrion saw fit to let Shae know he was getting married, but consented to having a 12 yr old dragged to her wedding? On that basis alone Sansa should have spit in his face when he started talking about the bedding.

That's also one of the things that bugs me most about the Tyrion-Sansa wedding, even though I generally rather like Tyrion. He should have warned her, by not doing so he proved to her that he doesn't care about her. Apparently he did care about Shae; he really chose badly.

Sansa's observation that Tyrion seemed just as frightened as herself is maybe his one saving grace, and also ultimately the reason he didn't go through with it I guess (on this point I'm cutting Tyrion more slack than most in this thread seem to do). There was a (belated) pang of conscience in there somewhere, along with the fear to be rejected (which is silly when force-marrying someone; I'm sure Ramsay wasn't afraid to be "rejected" by Jeyne; unless you do have that little bit of conscience down there).

[Wouter]

Oooh I can't remember if anyone mentioned this but I meant to highlight it in my review as another hint of Tyrion as a giant clue. When Sansa is dancing with Garlan at her wedding the Black wedding:

Garlan's comment seems to me to be one of many throughout the books pointing to Tyrion being a giant in mind/knowledge/strategy/analytical thinking - Garlan certainly meant it as a compliment at the time, as did Aemon earlier and Moqorro later. I really doubt he is the giant from the prophecy, the main candidates for that are (to me) Sweetrobin's doll, "Robert" the silent knight and Littlefinger himself.

I suspect Tyrion is going to rise to prominence under Daenerys again, at least for a while, and his supposed "greatness" will come to pass then. I doubt he will finish the series at odds with Sansa and the other Starks, unless Dany and the Starks enter open conflict.

[brashcandy]

Can I just remind everyone to keep the LF theorising to a minimum please. We'll get to those chapters in due time and I don't want everyone to be all talked out :) Re-analysing his relationship with Sansa is one of the things I am most looking forward to as well, but I'll just say this: the man is a predator of the worst kind.

Garlan's comment seems to me to be one of many throughout the books pointing to Tyrion being a giant in mind/knowledge/strategy/analytical thinking - Garlan certainly meant it as a compliment at the time, as did Aemon earlier and Moqorro later. I really doubt he is the giant from the prophecy, the main candidates for that are (to me) Sweetrobin's doll, "Robert" the silent knight and Littlefinger himself.

I suspect Tyrion is going to rise to prominence under Daenerys again, at least for a while, and his supposed "greatness" will come to pass then. I doubt he will finish the series at odds with Sansa and the other Starks, unless Dany and the Starks enter open conflict.

There are simply too many hints for Tyrion as the giant to rule him out completely IMHO. But I will say that it seems Sansa will have to battle many giants - dolls and the human ones -on her way to achieving some autonomy and happiness.

[Wouter]

Virginity is a theme Martin seems kind of obsessed with and this is a double edged topic. Of course no one sane (in RL) would want a twelve, thirteen or maybe even fourteen year old girl to have sex with a man so much older. But the principle of determining a woman's value by her being a "maiden" that goes from the property of a father into the property of a husband is of course hugely sexist and a misigynistic ideology all over the world in past and in present.

As you yourself wrote, this attitude still survives even in the present in certain cultures, and in the Middle Ages it was pretty much the usual way to look at things (or at least not something that was terribly unusual).

Hence, I don't think Martin is obsessed with it, rather he is reflecting the norms of the times that he more or less based his world on.

Cersei is scared of the younger queen that will replace her (as we see later with Margaery who she can't contol). She has Sansa under control, scared of Cersei, captive, with very low control over her own live.

I agree - this is likely the main reason she is so vehement in wanting to keep Sansa under tight control, certainly not allowing her to a place where she might prosper again (and possibly gain power in the process - Highgarden is not to be trifled with and Sansa would be mother to its heirs!). The other parts of her reasons are, in my opinion, that she is pissed off that the Tyrells are plotting to take control over someone she captured (and without paying for the pleasure) and that she is pissed off that her precious son Joffrey is about to lose one of his playthings. Cersei was not happy when Joffrey had to shove Sansa aside; she noted in the council that he would not be pleased and this Margaery would have to please him, or else...

Another thing that maybe has been discussed, if so then no replay at all. The behaviour of the Tyrell girls at the wedding. IMO, that demostrates that before they were geting Sansa in the spiderweb so she can trus them. If any of them speak to Sansa as Ser Galan did then they would have proove that they worried Sansa. But none of them spoke. And after again she feld isolated from women contact.

Has been discussed. Margaery gets a bit of a pass because at least she showed some emotion/eye contact to Sansa, and Sansa becoming abruptly a married "woman" and a Lannister-by-marriage wasn't ideal to continue the old relationship. Still, Margaery herself didn't come out of it smelling of roses and the cousins (and especially the QoT, for that matter) even less. Garlan and his wife were the only ones who continued to think about her, it seems. I wonder if Garlan was in on the plot, or not...

About Shae as her maid.

Does nobody think Sansa would actually have been relieved at least somewhat that Tyrion had someone else to have sex with - would mean a better chance for her to escape the same?

Also, despite his "love" for Shae, he wants Sansa. But at the same time when he describes what little he knows of Sansa in his thoughts and his speech, it is invariably negative. It is only the imaginary Sansa that he thinks lies behind the courtesy armour that he wants.

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say that Tyrion thinks invariably negative about Sansa - and that he wants her is still understandable (minus the pedophile part, that is, but different times and different mores and all that). Sansa is pretty, for one, and Tyrion is well aware of that. She is not a whore, which Tyrion knows Shae is (and thus her "love" for him is only professional, as Tyrion must know deep down). She is educated. Sansa is also really charming; Tyrion more than once notes this, most notably when she is greeting people just before Joff's wedding feast started. It's not surprising that he sorta-kinda desires her, being married to her yet being separated from her by a wall as high and unyielding as the big Wall in the north. In a couple years time, he will have to go in the queue forming up of men who are very much charmed by Sansa.