From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa IV

[Fragile Bird]

I might be getting a little bit ahead of things or maybe OT (forgive me if I am and tell me so!), but I always thought it was interesting that Sansa prayed in the Godswood (her fathers gods), as well as in the Sept (the Seven being Catelyn's gods). Perhaps it represents a kind of "duality", within her character, in a way. But then again, maybe it means nothing!

Her father's gods are the old gods the Starks worship, her mother's gods are the god with seven faces, so Sansa is praying to both. If you look at the opening POV of Cat in AGOT (I think) it gives a good explanation of her feelings, and almost every POV of her's has more about loving the god of the south.

[brashcandy]

I might be getting a little bit ahead of things or maybe OT (forgive me if I am and tell me so!), but I always thought it was interesting that Sansa prayed in the Godswood (her fathers gods), as well as in the Sept (the Seven being Catelyn's gods). Perhaps it represents a kind of "duality", within her character, in a way. But then again, maybe it means nothing!

I think it means something, indeed, and this is a pertinent point. As Sansa matures, she is showing greater understanding of and is receptive to the oppositions and differences in many things to do with religion, relationships and power. She seems to realise the value of one thing does not have to negate the other. We see this when she prays for the Hound, recognizing that he saved her despite not being a true knight. Or when she commits to being a good wife to Willas, even though it's his brother she would have preferred. She can detect the power of the godswood although she was always more attracted to the Seven etc etc. This duality makes her a much more "inclusive" character, if this makes sense.

[Wouter]

I just can't understand why you're assuming that we can't take what Tyrion says at face value on the Red Wedding.

Oh, we may take it at face value - the Lannisters have won the war, his statement is correct. What I mean is that I don't see this as a clear indication that he is feeling happy about the Red Wedding (after all, he is feeling cold during the very height of the Lannister High Summer!), and his thoughts are rather heavily weighed down by thinking about Sansa's response and position. Tyrion is not smiling during this part; he seems to be worried and confused, in spite of the great success the Lannisters are enjoying. Hence why I feel that he seems to have second thoughts about being on the right side, about possibly having backed the wrong horse.

His family has won. But it does not bring him joy; he knows he will have to face Sansa and tell her. He isn't proud of the Red Wedding in and of itself, either, at least that's the impression I got. The Lannisters have won their "little war", but Tyrion is in a precarious position.

Everyone knows it's a power grab, but still there's no reason for Kevan to be interested in seeing the girl tormented for Joffrey's pleasure. Tyrion himself objects to Joffrey's wish, and he's the biggest hypocrite of them all.

Tyrion is also a hypocrite, aye, but given all that Kevan has been closely involved in, he is at least as bad as Tyrion on this count.

[Wouter]

I might be getting a little bit ahead of things or maybe OT (forgive me if I am and tell me so!), but I always thought it was interesting that Sansa prayed in the Godswood (her fathers gods), as well as in the Sept (the Seven being Catelyn's gods). Perhaps it represents a kind of "duality", within her character, in a way. But then again, maybe it means nothing!

I think Sansa is meant to be a character able to bridge differences. She is a girl of the north but with many ties to the south (most recently to the Vale), she worships old and new Gods alike, has lived life as a pampered princess, a hostage and a bastard. She has felt both adoration and rejection, even hate, by the public.

Hence, I would not be surprised if Sansa will be involved in making eventual (more lasting) peace between the north and south.

[brashcandy]

Oh, we may take it at face value - the Lannisters have won the war, his statement is correct. What I mean is that I don't see this as a clear indication that he is feeling happy about the Red Wedding (after all, he is feeling cold during the very height of the Lannister High Summer!), and his thoughts are rather heavily weighed down by thinking about Sansa's response and position. Tyrion is not smiling during this part; he seems to be worried and confused, in spite of the great success the Lannisters are enjoying. Hence why I feel that he seems to have second thoughts about being on the right side, about possibly having backed the wrong horse.

His family has won. But it does not bring him joy; he knows he will have to face Sansa and tell her. He isn't proud of the Red Wedding in and of itself, either, at least that's the impression I got. The Lannisters have won their "little war", but Tyrion is in a precarious position.

And I basically agree with your reading. I never meant to suggest he was happy per se, just that he isn't sad either. He doesn't relish having to tell his wife what has happened, but he certainly recognizes that this is an important step on his way to the North.

Tyrion is also a hypocrite, aye, but given all that Kevan has been closely involved in, he is at least as bad as Tyrion on this count.

In speaking strictly about the motley wedding, all Kevan did was to support his brother in helping to convince Tyrion. Tyrion is the one who allowed himself to get swept away by the fantasy of a pretty wife and his own castle. On this count, I don't even hold Tywin as accountable for the travesty as I do Tyrion.

[Queen of Winter]

Sandor, Brienne and Jaime are in no state to be fighting anyone :) Sandor has the leg injury, Brienne has been mauled (and might be put of her misery by Cat if/when she returns with Jaime) and the kingslayer is missing his sword hand. Right now, I can only see Sansa getting out of her kingslaying charges by diplomatic means...

Has anyone else noticed that a lot of the men in Sansa's life have leg injuries? :o

Her father's leg was broken in King's Landing, Sandor received an injury to his leg (and that rather large gravedigger walks with a limp) and Willas, is a cripple.

[Silverin]

Has anyone else noticed that a lot of the men in Sansa's life have leg injuries? :o

Her father's leg was broken in King's Landing, Sandor received an injury to his leg (and that rather large gravedigger walks with a limp) and Willas, is a cripple.

And there is Bran as well, who is a cripple as well......suspicious

Maybe it means that Sansa will be the leg of AA.

[brashcandy]

Has anyone else noticed that a lot of the men in Sansa's life have leg injuries? :o

Her father's leg was broken in King's Landing, Sandor received an injury to his leg (and that rather large gravedigger walks with a limp) and Willas, is a cripple.

I like to think that it's all part of Sansa's discovery that crippled/injured/scarred men can still be brave, gentle and strong. :)

Even the dog she bonds with in the Eyrie is old and blind.

[Queen of Winter]

I like to think that it's all part of Sansa's discovery that crippled/injured/scarred men can still be brave, gentle and strong. :)

Even the dog she bonds with in the Eyrie is old and blind.

Yes, good point!

[bgona]

Failure to learn this lesson can be seen in the real world:

British Royal Family: Still with us

Dutch Royal Family: still with us

Danish Royal Family: still with us

Norwegian Royal Family: still with us

French Royal Family: beheaded

Russian Royal Family: shot, though the Czar thought of himself as a Little Father to his people, Czarist Russia seems to have been a bit Inquisitiony, and the pogroms and the absolute poverty in which Russians lived...

German Royal family: exiled

Austro-Hungarian Royal family: exiled (worth noting that WW1 erupted over the assassination of Franz Ferdinand by a Bosnian teenager with TB, the Austrians and the Germans had a Tywin like reaction and started a war that in the end would lead to their own exile/the destruction of their countries)

Their are royal families and their are royal families.

Spanish Royal family: still with us (at the moment).

Greek Royal family: in exile (and I don´t believe they will be again).

Bulgarian Royal family: out of country, Simeon II also had been Prime Minister of Bulgaria from 2001-2005 (IIRC).

Portugues Royal family: in exile and without direct descendants since 1932.

[bgona]

the Seven Gods are similar to medieval idea of the saints, they have their 'specializations' ;)

R'llor and his priests- I have the impression, that this is sort of The Inquisition (fire that redeems and purifies)

True, due to the Inquisition likes to burn things they could have burn the Sept. ^_^

But anyway I believe more that has some kind of conexion with the ones that I said before cause those were the religions more important of medieval England.

[bgona]

Oh, we may take it at face value - the Lannisters have won the war, his statement is correct. What I mean is that I don't see this as a clear indication that he is feeling happy about the Red Wedding (after all, he is feeling cold during the very height of the Lannister High Summer!), and his thoughts are rather heavily weighed down by thinking about Sansa's response and position. Tyrion is not smiling during this part; he seems to be worried and confused, in spite of the great success the Lannisters are enjoying. Hence why I feel that he seems to have second thoughts about being on the right side, about possibly having backed the wrong horse.

His family has won. But it does not bring him joy; he knows he will have to face Sansa and tell her. He isn't proud of the Red Wedding in and of itself, either, at least that's the impression I got. The Lannisters have won their "little war", but Tyrion is in a precarious position.

Tyrion is also a hypocrite, aye, but given all that Kevan has been closely involved in, he is at least as bad as Tyrion on this count.

Maybe staying married with Sansa makes Tyrion think on how they have win the war (breaking a sacred rule: the hospitality, by a trick). Tyrion wants to be loved (not only by Sansa, but also by the people in KL while he is the Hand). And he fells in both loves.

----------

Towards Tyrion not going to the Godwoods shows that he wasn´t truly interested in trying to be participative with Sansa likes. I don´t say that he should go all the days, but at least try to go some days (one or two at least!). If you like something a lot, and your wife/husband tries to accompaign you it is something that you will be grateful. More if she/he doesn´t like it.

------------

Sansa religion: Probably she is not fervish as it seems. She is alone, with nobody to trust, so she overturns on the religion as a safe place. The Godwoods is not also cause that remembers her his fathers gods and the happy days, it is basically where she can plan to run away with Ser Dontos.

[bgona]

I should add that I don't expect Sansa to become an Arya at all, or vocalise her opposition. What I'm trying to get across is that I think Tyrion wants more...personality?... from her, rather than, as the Hounds so aptly put, the pretty little words that the Septas taught her.

Lacks of personality? No, she demostrates here that she has a lot of personality, only that it is different than others.

Maybe you were trying to say that Tyrion will prefer to see more passionatly reaction. And again that prooves that Tyrion is not seeing at the true Sansa.

BTW: welcome to both (you and QoW) and enjoy explaining any thought.

[Maroucia]

Towards Tyrion not going to the Godwoods shows that he wasn´t truly interested in trying to be participative with Sansa likes. I don´t say that he should go all the days, but at least try to go some days (one or two at least!). If you like something a lot, and your wife/husband tries to accompaign you it is something that you will be grateful. More if she/he doesn´t like it.

Of course, in a real marriage, you would want your husband to accompany you and take interest in what you like, but this is the motley marriage (hehe)! There is no way those two can connect; they have a marriage but no relationship. I don’t think Sansa wants Tyrion to gain interests in her anyway, not at all I would say. That’s even the main reason for her cold attitude toward him.

[bgona]

That´s completly true! And also that Sansa doesn´t want Tyrion accompaigning her.

About the other day colour things, I listen to this song that tells about black days that went away, red days that pass but the white days have to come, it´s a pity that is in Spanish.

EDIT: I found the letter translate.

http://www.albumcancionyletra.com/traducir_dias-de-colores_de_celtas-cortos__284294.aspx

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Umm....why would Sansa have wanted Tyrion at the Godswoods when she was meeting Dontos there???

with that in mind, it didn't matter if Tyrion had an interest or not, she didn't want him there as she was plotting her escape

She even lied to Sandor about it....but he told her he knew she was lying and didn't question her further

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Tyrion needs to learn to love himself before anyone else will ever love him

age old wisdom there and I think GRRM is exploiting it to the full with Tyrion

[Raksha the Demon]

By Raksha The Demon:

ahem, I do not think that Sansa is behaving so much more clever here that any thirteen year old who tells her parents that she does homework at a friend's but in fact goes shopping or swimming. This is simply nothing that makes Sansa special or unusually clever, apart from the fact that every situation in Martin's world might be kind of special to us. Sansa is not the mastermind who invented a genius or bold plan of escape, she gets the way out served on a silver platter.

I am a fairly intelligent person; and I am certain that at the age of 12, I would not have had the presence of mind to do as Sansa did - speaking up with the right words to save Ser Dontos, taking charge of the morale of the frightened women during the battle of the Blackwater and helping a wounded man who is also an enemy of her family, and keeping up not only a very strong emotional shield while being humiliated and beaten, but deceiving some very clever people as to her motivations and plans.

I do think that Sansa is an exceptional girl; many girls in her position would have broken, would have tried to curry favor with Cersei or Tywin, or would have succumbed to depression, maybe slipped up and accidentally revealed that she and Ser Dontos were conspiring together. She's learned an iron self-control; and how to survive and keep her sanity in an environment where she is despised as a person and only valued as either a hostage (Cersei) or the remaining claimant to Winterfell (most of the Lannisters) or as a target for sadism and perhaps sexual attraction (Joffrey).

[bgona]

Umm....why would Sansa have wanted Tyrion at the Godswoods when she was meeting Dontos there???

with that in mind, it didn't matter if Tyrion had an interest or not, she didn't want him there as she was plotting her escape

She even lied to Sandor about it....but he told her he knew she was lying and didn't question her further

At least he knew that she was lying (that what shows? The Hound could read better in Sansa acts or she is improving lying?)

[Maroucia]

At least he knew that she was lying (that what shows? The Hound could read better in Sansa acts or she is improving lying?)

Definitely improving, but also, a dog can smell lies.