Jump to content

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa IV


brashcandy

Recommended Posts

At least he knew that she was lying (that what shows? The Hound could read better in Sansa acts or she is improving lying?)

Yeah, a dog can smell a lie :) The Lannisters simply underestimated Sansa and paid the price. When Sansa agrees to go quietly to her wedding and not make a fuss, Cersei says:

I knew you would

and it's a really snide comment on her part highlighting just how timid she felt Sansa was. She doesn't realise that Sansa has chosen to be dignified and has rationalised that Tyrion isn't all that bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, a dog can smell a lie :) The Lannisters simply underestimated Sansa and paid the price. When Sansa agrees to go quietly to her wedding and not make a fuss, Cersei says:

and it's a really snide comment on her part highlighting just how timid she felt Sansa was. She doesn't realise that Sansa has chosen to be dignified and has rationalised that Tyrion isn't all that bad.

Also, if Sansa had decided to rebel and do trouble, she might have ended up being twice watched over and even more controlled. Maybe she would have been locked in her room with no possibilities to go to the godwoods and meet Dontos to plan her escape. So by playing the good girl that does whatever is asked of her, she keeps her “freedom” and has the possibility of escaping.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some people were wondering what sansa whispered while she was dreaming when tyrion os getting ready for his visit with shae. I think she says Lady cause I think she is dreaming about her and will say so in her next chapter.

There have been some discussions which I found interesting, so here is what I think about a couple of the things we’re commenting:

- About LF: I won’t discuss his relationship with sansa this early, but I do have to say that since he is hatching the escape plan with dontos, that’s one thing he does which I actually like cause if sansa hadn’t been planning her escape during her marriage time, then I am pretty sure she would have been lost to us. The hope of escaping is what’s currently keeping her sane & not utterly lost. So if LF hadn’t moved some strings here can you imagine what poor sansa would’ve done? She might have been ready to die after the news of the red wedding and stuff…

- There’s been some talk about tyrion not fearing that sansa might suddenly slight his throat while he sleeps: no one would expect this from her, which is why I would like to have sansa one day willing to use the hairnet. It would certainly throw her enemies off balance.

- And just a small comment: I was watching the eight episode of the series and the scene where sansa is brought before the small council to write the letter to robb and her other relatives about how eddard is a traitor… well, master pycelle says that though sansa is a sweet thing then in 10 years she may be scheming plans and betrayals. I don’t want sansa to become a queen like cersei, but even if she is the queen we all wish her to be, nice & loing and caring and just, we must still expect her to hatch treasons and plans. What I’m trying to say is that back when that scene was taking place I’m sure that not even cersei believed that sansa was smart enough to plan anything, so this can be another hint that if sansa may very well be the younger queen cersei fears…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

- About LF: I won’t discuss his relationship with sansa this early, but I do have to say that since he is hatching the escape plan with dontos, that’s one thing he does which I actually like cause if sansa hadn’t been planning her escape during her marriage time, then I am pretty sure she would have been lost to us. The hope of escaping is what’s currently keeping her sane & not utterly lost. So if LF hadn’t moved some strings here can you imagine what poor sansa would’ve done? She might have been ready to die after the news of the red wedding and stuff…

This made me wonder, if Sansa never had the escape proposal by Dontos, would she had left with Sandor? In the bedroom scene on the night of the Black Water, I know he didn’t made himself very clear and she didn’t get a chance to answer before he went all crazy, but if she didn’t had any other hope, she might have seized the only chance she would’ve had to run away from her horrible situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This made me wonder, if Sansa never had the escape proposal by Dontos, would she had left with Sandor? In the bedroom scene on the night of the Black Water, I know he didn’t made himself very clear and she didn’t get a chance to answer before he went all crazy, but if she didn’t had any other hope, she might have seized the only chance she would’ve had to run away from her horrible situation.

for all we know she might have :dunno: maybe since she wouldn't have had the posibility of escaping in the near future all through ACOK then by the end of it some of the things we know made it right for her to deny his offer woudn't have looked as wrong..?

sorry for getting off topic, & I know this is is obviously impossible and tons of things would've had to be changed for it to work out, but i suddenly came up with the scenario of what would've happened if we hadn't had the bedroom scene and sandor wouldn't have left KL? his feelings for sansa may have increased even more and she would've had a little more time to get to trust him, so maybe when sandor learned that the lannisters were planning to marry her to tyrion whom he hates, he may have made his offer then and sansa may have agreed to escape... i know that there are way too many "mays" & "if's" in this theory, but i just wondered... :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some people were wondering what sansa whispered while she was dreaming when tyrion os getting ready for his visit with shae. I think she says Lady cause I think she is dreaming about her and will say so in her next chapter.

Yes, this is the most likely assumption given her thoughts on waking, but wouldn't it be fantastic if she actually said Sandor, and Tyrion had heard :) hehehehehe, we'll never know, so alas!

This made me wonder, if Sansa never had the escape proposal by Dontos, would she had left with Sandor? In the bedroom scene on the night of the Black Water, I know he didn’t made himself very clear and she didn’t get a chance to answer before he went all crazy, but if she didn’t had any other hope, she might have seized the only chance she would’ve had to run away from her horrible situation.

I think she might have as Caro says. She had to have had the plan with Dontos at the back of her mind, and maybe this explained some of her hesitancy. But the Hound was acting so erratic that she doesn't seem to have had much time to consider the offer. Later on we know she comes to wonder if she was wise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, this is the most likely assumption given her thoughts on waking, but wouldn't it be fantastic if she actually said Sandor, and Tyrion had heard :) hehehehehe, we'll never know, so alas!

oh how i would've loved that!!! :bowdown: lol, tyrion's reaction to this would've been hilarious! & it might have been a little bit funny to have him ask her about it as well ;p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I must say about the scene of LF in the shows. It is creepy in someway. It shows so good his inmorality. And how he explains the game of thrones, that sentences is one of the sentences! So good, so well done.

Now that I have a job I got to catch up, I liked that scene in the show I'll be honest, I liked it for the perversion ( I dig reds and the actress playing Roz is :drool: ) and I loved it for how cold blooded LF is, he knows exactly what will not work for him and has absolutely no care of using unethical or inhumane acts to get what he wants.

To this end I hope his fall is very painful, and hopefully the Red Wolf is the method of his down fall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, this is the most likely assumption given her thoughts on waking, but wouldn't it be fantastic if she actually said Sandor, and Tyrion had heard :) hehehehehe, we'll never know, so alas!

That would surely have been a WTF moment on Tyrion's part! Just thinking about it makes me laugh!

I do agree with Caro and you though, she must have said Lady, but since we have clues that Sandor is Lady's replacement and that those two kind of get mixed up in her head, she might have been dreaming of him too :leer: … Well that’s what I hope. She will dream of him in the future though! :smug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

oh how i would've loved that!!! :bowdown: lol, tyrion's reaction to this would've been hilarious! & it might have been a little bit funny to have him ask her about it as well ;p

I know, I mean it was a golden opportunity!!! Even more funny than watching Sansa try to explain it to Tyrion would be her trying to explain it to herself :) Or maybe Tyrion wouldn't have told her anything, but just stewed on it. Either way, it would have been the highlight of this period.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By Caraol99:

- There’s been some talk about tyrion not fearing that sansa might suddenly slight his throat while he sleeps: no one would expect this from her, which is why I would like to have sansa one day willing to use the hairnet. It would certainly throw her enemies off balance.

One thing is certain: Sansa has a feeling for right and wrong - so far, we do not know how she will develop learning from Baelish or maybe being forced to live on her own getting her moral convictions tested on a daily basis.

But at the present stage of the story I do not see her murdering Tyrion (if not in direct self defence, but then I do not see Tyrion trying to murder her).

Sansa is - so far - not the person to murder without compunction, neither Tyrion nor Sweetrobin nor Baelish, she may though kill LF if it is her or him or Sweetrobin or him. She is too controlled to murder in a flash of anger and she has too much a sense of justice to murder for personal gains, like getting rid of an unwanted husband who does not even threaten her, divorce Cersei style.

I would like her to be someone who actively shapes her own destiny (I am waiting....), not someone who actively becomes immoral - but Martin may have other ideas.

:D ...and I thought you were the Sansa lovers, not me..... :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That would surely have been a WTF moment on Tyrion's part! Just thinking about it makes me laugh!

I do agree with Caro and you though, she must have said Lady, but since we have clues that Sandor is Lady's replacement and that those two kind of get mixed up in her head, she might have been dreaming of him too :leer: … Well that’s what I hope. She will dream of him in the future though! :smug:

I will have love that!! So perfect jajaja.

--------------------------

Grail King I´m glad you got a job. That´s a good news.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By Caraol99:

One thing is certain: Sansa has a feeling for right and wrong - so far, we do not know how she will develop learning from Baelish or maybe being forced to live on her own getting her moral convictions tested on a daily basis.

But at the present stage of the story I do not see her murdering Tyrion (if not in direct self defence, but then I do not see Tyrion trying to murder her).

Sansa is - so far - not the person to murder without compunction, neither Tyrion nor Sweetrobin nor Baelish, she may though kill LF if it is her or him or Sweetrobin or him. She is too controlled to murder in a flash of anger and she has too much a sense of justice to murder for personal gains, like getting rid of an unwanted husband who does not even threaten her, divorce Cersei style.

I would like her to be someone who actively shapes her own destiny (I am waiting....), not someone who actively becomes immoral - but Martin may have other ideas.

:D ...and I thought you were the Sansa lovers, not me..... :D

Not only for personal gains, she has too much sense of justice. And that it is also active, to choose not to use violence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By Caraol99:

One thing is certain: Sansa has a feeling for right and wrong - so far, we do not know how she will develop learning from Baelish or maybe being forced to live on her own getting her moral convictions tested on a daily basis.

But at the present stage of the story I do not see her murdering Tyrion (if not in direct self defence, but then I do not see Tyrion trying to murder her).

Sansa is - so far - not the person to murder without compunction, neither Tyrion nor Sweetrobin nor Baelish, she may though kill LF if it is her or him or Sweetrobin or him. She is too controlled to murder in a flash of anger and she has too much a sense of justice to murder for personal gains, like getting rid of an unwanted husband who does not even threaten her, divorce Cersei style.

I would like her to be someone who actively shapes her own destiny (I am waiting....), not someone who actively becomes immoral - but Martin may have other ideas.

:D ...and I thought you were the Sansa lovers, not me..... :D

you know, since annulment doesn't actually require the consent of the annulled party, it's actually not completely necessary for Sansa to have Tyrion whacked, even if he doesn't agree to the annulment (out of spite or whatever) since the deciding person is actaully the high septon/council of faith.

I would say Sansa has excellent grounds for annulment and thus wouldn't have to resort to borgia plan A: (claiming that Giovanni Sforza was impotent) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Sforza

much less Borgia plan B: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonso_of_Aragon

Well I can't speak for all Sansa lovers, but I would like Sansa to take action (and potentially get rid of a character who maybe sliding down the path to villainy), but only in a way that's realistic (poison or indirect assassination, rather than boldly slitting his throat ala Arya) and in ways that won't result in a worsening of her situation (crying, screaming and biting would have gotten Sansa confined, and thus she wouldn't have been able to escape for instance)...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you know, since annulment doesn't actually require the consent of the annulled party, it's actually not completely necessary for Sansa to have Tyrion whacked, even if he doesn't agree to the annulment (out of spite or whatever) since the deciding person is actaully the high septon/council of faith.

I would say Sansa has excellent grounds for annulment and thus wouldn't have to resort to borgia plan A: (claiming that Giovanni Sforza was impotent) http://en.wikipedia....Giovanni_Sforza

much less Borgia plan B: http://en.wikipedia....fonso_of_Aragon

Well I can't speak for all Sansa lovers, but I would like Sansa to take action (and potentially get rid of a character who maybe sliding down the path to villainy), but only in a way that's realistic (poison or indirect assassination, rather than boldly slitting his throat ala Arya) and in ways that won't result in a worsening of her situation (crying, screaming and biting would have gotten Sansa confined, and thus she wouldn't have been able to escape for instance)...

In the reference section of the Citadel, GRRM himself states that a marriage can be annulled by the High Septon, but that one of the parties involved must apply for the annullment. It's also stated that no other people need to be involved. So this means that either

a. Tyrion or

b. Sansa

can demand the marriage to be annulled.

It doesn't seem likely that anyone not involved can get it annulled, which means it will be very interesting how this pans out especially with the very religious and righteous High Septon at the head of the Faith. I wonder if it's enough for Sansa to write a letter, or whether she needs to actually present the case herself. If it's the latter, it really throws a wrench into LF's plans since I doubt he can wave his magic wand, claim that she is "estranged" and that'll be that. The only thing that's a bit uncertain here is that Tyrion is a Kinslayer and exiled, so perhaps that could be used as a basis to annull the marriage. Although again, Sansa would need to personally apply for it.

Interestingly as well, it's listed that a father or a brother could give a woman away in marriage, or that they normally did, but that a widow with title and high birth would have the same sort of power to decide whom to marry the daughters off to. Cat may be UnCat, but she is still Sansa's mother and would have more right to have a say than LF or anyone else in the seven kingdoms. Theoretically, since Ned made her Warden of the north in his stead, once Robb died, the responsibility would revert back to Cat until any surviving children come of age. Or at least she has a claim to it, which may be a bit messed up to due her...deadness.

It seems unlikely to me that Cat was brought back just to sit there and murder some Freys and maybe Jamie Lannister. The whole point of her character arc was always how much she cared for her family and what they meant to her. She released Jamie to get Sansa and Arya back and did what she could to help Robb. Sansa is currently the family member closest to UnCat's location and I hope this is not by chance. I'll go through all Cat's ASOS chapters well in time for the last Sansa ones just to see if there's anything interesting to pick up. Especially since it seems Cat could speak for Sansa, Sansa is Cat when she was young and I believe meeting Sansa could be the peace she would require to stop the UnLife.

EDIT: Over 400 posts people, time for a new thread? :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a friendly reminder to everyone (myself included) that this is a re-read thread, rather than general opinions about Sansa's life in general.

We are building a picture of her chapter by chapter, so if possible can we stick to the present chapter only bringing in other comments or chapters if they are relevant. :)

Also for those new contributors, welcome to the forum. The next Sansa chapter review and analysis will be up on Thursday. If you can read it in advance it would be great. Also if you can read through the previous threads (big ask, I know) you will see how we have built up our development of the character, with some new finds in terms of foreshadowing and character assumptions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I can't speak for all Sansa lovers, but I would like Sansa to take action (and potentially get rid of a character who maybe sliding down the path to villainy), but only in a way that's realistic (poison or indirect assassination, rather than boldly slitting his throat ala Arya) and in ways that won't result in a worsening of her situation (crying, screaming and biting would have gotten Sansa confined, and thus she wouldn't have been able to escape for instance)...

Voodooqueen, I realize that you have a rather martial approach to justice. But if Sansa- or anyone - decided to murder a person simply because he or she is maybe sliding down the path to villainy this would be outright murder, playing judge, jury and executioner in one, morally really ugly and so far not Sansa.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ Woman of War

So far in this chapter Sansa hasn't murdered anyone. This may become relevant when we discuss her final chapter in AFFC where the issue of Sweetrobin may come up. In the meantime, please focus on Sansa's arc that we see through Tyrion's eyes in the chapters we are discussing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK so to get back to this chapter, I have to say that I still don't get the feeling that Tyrion thinks Sansa is stupid. He clearly doesn't know her at all and is trying to figure her out (sort of, as we see when he thinks about going to the Godswood with her). The scene at the beginning of this chapter is the first time we really see them interact since their wedding and it's clear they are so far apart and just going through the motions. Tyrion is definitely frustrated by her courtesy armor but that doesn't mean he finds her stupid. In fact, he thinks to himself that "She knows me better than I thought." This suggests to me that he doesn't consider her a lackwit, he just is having a hard time getting anything out of her at all. In the coming chapters I can give more evidence of this but I don't want to get ahead of the reading too much.

On a related note, I have often wondered if Tyrion's abhorrence of Lollys stems more from the fact that she is lackwitted rather than her looks. He needs someone who can challenge him intellectually and who he can carry on conversations with and he is not going to get that from Lollys (not that I am trying to justify the comments he makes about her, but I do wonder about that). He is also not getting the conversational challenge from Sansa either and that could be what frustrates him more than anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...