From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa IV

[1234567]

And Lanna being Tyrion's child: Tyrion made love to Tysha within the same menstrual cycle where she was raped by fifty other men. There would never be a way to find out if Lanna was Tyrion's child, though the likelihod would be considerably higher if Lanna were a dwarf herself, but apparently she isn't. .

Tyrion had been married to her for two weeks previously, so there is a better chance that she was already pregnant when she was raped. Also Lanna has the Lannister features, which I think was a hint.

But indeed there is no way to prove this.

I personally found the scene where Tyrion sits beside Sansa at Joffrey's wedding and sees the happy "pregnant" couple, very touching.

It is indeed touching and will be good to discuss once we reach that chapter.

[Woman of War]

Of course this is more a topic for a grisly morbid medical thread but I can hardly imagine that a thirteen or fourteen year old girl could stay or get pregnant if she has been so cruelly raped, simply because of very likely uterine, bladder and vaginal infections. But then children have been born under most horrible condtions like Bosnian or African ethnic wars. But that's only a remark, no need to discuss this here, I at least lack the medical qualification.

[bgona]

Good thing that we are talking about an imaginary time and land book (based in many real things they are also more that are just imaginary). And things that seems impossible they can just happen there.

[bgona]

And the humanity have been procreating since their begin, and also all the animals. It is the beauty of the miracle, even in adverse conditions, live still been.

[brashcandy]

It's obvious from how Tyrion reacts to Shae's lack of concern over his marriage that he deeply wants someone to connect with on a personal, emotional level. Unfortunately, neither Shae nor Sansa can provide him with what he's looking for. As a hired prostitute, Shae cannot afford to let genuine affections get in the way of her advancement, and as a forced bride, Sansa cannot get past her misery and unhappiness. It's a pity that Tyrion seems to realise all of this too late, and when one woman deserts him, and the other betrays him, he reacts with bitterness and violence.

[1234567]

It's Sansa further and deeper misery at this stage that it particularly interesting. As we know she is bidding her time for escape: but her misery has deepened. The dispair is obvious to anyone seeing her.

[Maroucia]

Nice analysis Rapsie!!! :)

About the "I don't care. She's only a little girl. You'll give her a big belly and come back to me" comment that Shae made on Sansa, I don’t see it as a confirmation that Sansa is indeed a little girl in the eyes of the court. Shae might just react as any older (I know Shae is not old, but still she has few years more then Sansa) woman would, if confronted against younger competition. She uses the youth of her opponent to discredit her. I know Sansa IS REALLY young, but she is supposed to look extremely good, it’s been said a few times now, that almost all the men are looking at her in a new interested way. She has attracted a long list of not only young boys, but also older men. She is said to be tall and have good sized breasts. She looks more woman then child, I would think.

That does not mean that the people of the court are not going to think that she is really young, but it discredits the idea that she could be seen as a power grab and nothing more. Of course she has an interesting claim, but she is also one of the most beautiful sights in king’s Landing, women and maids indifferently. I don’t think anyone is laughing of this wedding because of Sansa’s age, but because of the chocking opposites that she and Tyrion are, the irony of their couple is what they think is so funny. I’m sure if Tywin would have decided to give away Sansa for sale, it would have been one of the easiest tasks he had to deal with for months, claim or not. No one would have laughed at her being married to any other Lord of Knight of the court.

As for my pretention that Shae would be jealous of Sansa, by that I don’t mean that she loves Tyrion, I think the opposite has been proven by her lack of emotions when she learned about the upcoming wedding. Shae is in a situation where she could imminently loose the grip she has on Tyrion. It’s more a question of power and money. She better give him good sex and hope that he doesn’t spend too much time with his new young wife and start getting attached to her, or else she could be set aside.

[Maroucia]

Has anyone seen that beautiful picture of Sansa (Sophie Turner)??

http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20470532_20578535,00.html?stitched#21133660

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Has anyone seen that beautiful picture of Sansa (Sophie Turner)??

http://www.ew.com/ew...itched#21133660

she's a gorgeous young girl/woman

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

quick ?

I don't want to make answers to this long, but since LF did the deed twice with Lysa what chance do you give SR to being Balish's son?

I rather had the impression they carried on an affair over the years but perhaps it was just an impression and not based on anything solid

[brashcandy]

Has anyone seen that beautiful picture of Sansa (Sophie Turner)??

http://www.ew.com/ew...itched#21133660

Wow, that's a lovely pic. They couldn't have chosen a better Sansa :)

Maroucia, your comments above got me thinking about Sansa and how GRRM is portraying her development from child to woman. It's expecially interesting when we see her through the lenses of men like Sandor, Tyrion and Littlefinger - all of whom clearly show some attraction/interest in her. Now when Tyrion calls Sansa a child, is this really the best way to describe her? Certainly at this point, she is still a child in terms of age and experience, but she's also growing up quickly, experiencing more detailed fantasies (Loras), showing a mature appreciation for Willas Tyrell despite his injuries (compare this to how Cersei balks at the prospect), and possesses a depth of empathy and compassion for Sandor which allows her to see him as a real person and form a connection with him. So, yes, still a "child" in relation to the adults around her, but growing more aware and self-sufficient as time goes on. I think that Tyrion can only appreciate her as a child mostly, because she keeps the other aspects of herself closed off to him, and in the case of Littlefinger, and most disturbingly, he seems to have cast her in the role of a woman, a Cat-substitute through whom he can relive his fantasies. I'm still undecided as to how Sandor sees her. We have the one time in ACOK when he comments on her developing body, but concludes that she's still a silly little bird. Later on, he appears to view her in a different light, but Sansa can only be the catalyst for his healing, not the final solution.

[Grail King]

she's a gorgeous young girl/woman

I like #6 also.

[Grail King]

Can really see the Dragon fly motif here: http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/02/09/game-of-thrones-season-2-photos/5/

[Grail King]

Nice analysis Rapsie!!! :)

About the "I don't care. She's only a little girl. You'll give her a big belly and come back to me" comment that Shae made on Sansa, I don’t see it as a confirmation that Sansa is indeed a little girl in the eyes of the court. Shae might just react as any older (I know Shae is not old, but still she has few years more then Sansa) woman would, if confronted against younger competition. She uses the youth of her opponent to discredit her. I know Sansa IS REALLY young, but she is supposed to look extremely good, it’s been said a few times now, that almost all the men are looking at her in a new interested way. She has attracted a long list of not only young boys, but also older men. She is said to be tall and have good sized breasts. She looks more woman then child, I would think.

That does not mean that the people of the court are not going to think that she is really young, but it discredits the idea that she could be seen as a power grab and nothing more. Of course she has an interesting claim, but she is also one of the most beautiful sights in king’s Landing, women and maids indifferently. I don’t think anyone is laughing of this wedding because of Sansa’s age, but because of the chocking opposites that she and Tyrion are, the irony of their couple is what they think is so funny. I’m sure if Tywin would have decided to give away Sansa for sale, it would have been one of the easiest tasks he had to deal with for months, claim or not. No one would have laughed at her being married to any other Lord of Knight of the court.

As for my pretention that Shae would be jealous of Sansa, by that I don’t mean that she loves Tyrion, I think the opposite has been proven by her lack of emotions when she learned about the upcoming wedding. Shae is in a situation where she could imminently loose the grip she has on Tyrion. It’s more a question of power and money. She better give him good sex and hope that he doesn’t spend too much time with his new young wife and start getting attached to her, or else she could be set aside.

Have you checked the trailers? I saw one of Shae and Sansa with Shae in her face, another with Catlyn threatening LF with a dagger, I wonder if these are visual clues for the non readers?

[Maroucia]

Wow, that's a lovely pic. They couldn't have chosen a better Sansa :)

Maroucia, your comments above got me thinking about Sansa and how GRRM is portraying her development from child to woman. It's expecially interesting when we see her through the lenses of men like Sandor, Tyrion and Littlefinger - all of whom clearly show some attraction/interest in her. Now when Tyrion calls Sansa a child, is this really the best way to describe her? Certainly at this point, she is still a child in terms of age and experience, but she's also growing up quickly, experiencing more detailed fantasies (Loras), showing a mature appreciation for Willas Tyrell despite his injuries (compare this to how Cersei balks at the prospect), and possesses a depth of empathy and compassion for Sandor which allows her to see him as a real person and form a connection with him. So, yes, still a "child" in relation to the adults around her, but growing more aware and self-sufficient as time goes on. I think that Tyrion can only appreciate her as a child mostly, because she keeps the other aspects of herself closed off to him, and in the case of Littlefinger, and most disturbingly, he seems to have cast her in the role of a woman, a Cat-substitute through whom he can relive his fantasies. I'm still undecided as to how Sandor sees her. We have the one time in ACOK when he comments on her developing body, but concludes that she's still a silly little bird. Later on, he appears to view her in a different light, but Sansa can only be the catalyst for his healing, not the final solution.

On the best way to describe Sansa, I think she’s really in that in that in-between period that women go through just after their puberty: looking like a woman, acting like a child. Though, as you said, she’s not thinking so much like one anymore.

At the night of her wedding, when she undressed herself, Tyrion’s first words are to tell her she’s a child.

It goes against what we’ve been told since then. A few chapters before, she was thinking at how womanly her body was becoming, even the seamstress comments on how her breasts were growing to become as nice as the Queen’s.

This makes me believe that Tyrion’s comment is more meant on her attitude then her looks. She is so shy and tensed that she looks more like a frighten child then a woman.

Tyrion is clearly not turned on by that, after that terrible first night together, she’s going to keep the same attitude, which is probably what saved her from other unwanted sexual advances from him.

So as you said, he’s going to continue to view her as a child after that because of her attitude (not opening-up to him). Sansa, with that attitude, did the best thing she could to get him to be unattached by her.

[Maroucia]

Have you checked the trailers? I saw one of Shae and Sansa with Shae in her face, another with Catlyn threatening LF with a dagger, I wonder if these are visual clues for the non readers?

What do you think the Littlefinger and Cathlyn scene could mean?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

It seems as though the trailers I have seen (and heard about) include an awful lot that indicates deviance from the book(s). I really, really hope this is just a case of the marketing/PR team doing selective picking and choosing to make the series look as exciting and enticing to as wide a market as possible, and not an indication that there will indeed be wide liberties taken with the storyline. One of my biggest pet peeves is when TV/film versions of books go veering wildly off from the storyline ... I mean, sometimes you can tell and excuse it on basis of shortening what would otherwise be a 45-episode miniseries, or the removal/amalgamation of less significant characters for the sake of clarity. If we readers (and re-readers) need charts and graphs to keep track of all the characters and storylines here, imagine some poor viewer trying to do it. Especially when the men all seem to dress alike and so many names sound confusingly the same (can't wait to see them try to help the viewers keep straight the Martells/Tyrells, and puzzle out the Meereenese characters whom I always mentally refer to as the "Zo's").

But it does bug me when there are changes made for no perceivable reason, or which might indicate some strange deviation yet to come. I cannot fathom, for example, why Shae went from your garden-variety (more attractive than average) Westerosi prostitute, glib of tongue and dedicated to pleasing her master insofar as it furthers her own aims; to some bizarre, foreign-accented (IMO of less than average attractiveness) hellcat with a shady, mysterious past and an apparent penchant for trying to piss off her patron. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see what it adds to the storyline of Season/Book One, and I hate the idea that it was added in because she is somehow going to play some kind of more pivotal role in future seasons. Perhaps they intend more clarity or foreshadowing of some covert relationship as Tywin's spy and plant to keep tabs on Tyrion, so it won't seem so bizarre when she turns up in Tywin's bed down the line, but I personally liked the more realistic way it played out in the books (ie, Tywin managing to keep any dealings with prostitutes completely under wraps). IRL it happens quite often that people discover startling or incongruous things about their loved ones only after they have passed, so to me it was a masterful touch of realism that none of his kids ever get to pin Tywin down and ask, "what was up with that???". They just have to live with it.

Sorry to meander so far off topic, but the idea of a trailer showing Shae saucing off to Sansa concerns me. I like our girl just the way she is, and with her character development from naive and trusting to sharp and learning, just like it is shown in the books. I would hate to see any of it get substantially altered.

[Fragile Bird]

What do you think the Littlefinger and Cathlyn scene could mean?

I gather they have LF attending on Renly when Cat is there meeting with him, a scene that never happens in the book. There is also a scene with LF asking Margaery questions about her marriage to Renly, again, not in the book. I'm hoping they're trying to cover a lot of ground by having LF pop up like some kind of....I don't know, words escape me...some kind travelling know-it-all who moves the plot along with pointed questions. Like when they had LF tell Sansa about the origin of Sandor's burns, doing in 20 seconds what would have otherwise perhaps been 5 minutes of Sansa/Sandor, a scene we all waited for.

[voodooqueen126]

Wow, that's a lovely pic. They couldn't have chosen a better Sansa :)

Maroucia, your comments above got me thinking about Sansa and how GRRM is portraying her development from child to woman. It's expecially interesting when we see her through the lenses of men like Sandor, Tyrion and Littlefinger - all of whom clearly show some attraction/interest in her. Now when Tyrion calls Sansa a child, is this really the best way to describe her? Certainly at this point, she is still a child in terms of age and experience, but she's also growing up quickly, experiencing more detailed fantasies (Loras), showing a mature appreciation for Willas Tyrell despite his injuries (compare this to how Cersei balks at the prospect), and possesses a depth of empathy and compassion for Sandor which allows her to see him as a real person and form a connection with him. So, yes, still a "child" in relation to the adults around her, but growing more aware and self-sufficient as time goes on. I think that Tyrion can only appreciate her as a child mostly, because she keeps the other aspects of herself closed off to him, and in the case of Littlefinger, and most disturbingly, he seems to have cast her in the role of a woman, a Cat-substitute through whom he can relive his fantasies. I'm still undecided as to how Sandor sees her. We have the one time in ACOK when he comments on her developing body, but concludes that she's still a silly little bird. Later on, he appears to view her in a different light, but Sansa can only be the catalyst for his healing, not the final solution.

I hate to the person who does this but since I am reading Lolita, I should just like to mention that

Sansa, in this chapter, is nearly the same age that Lolita is when Humbert first seduces/rapes her. Sansa is 13 in one month and Lolita is 13 in about 5 months...(Lolita's birthday is on the 1st of January and the early part of the book is set in the American summer) though Lolita does seem to have experienced menarche.

Now I don't mean to be gross, but going back to an earlier chapter of Lolita, we know that Lolita's hips haven't broadened yet (because Humbert mentions that her iliac crests haven't flared).

also at even earlier part of the book (page 17 of LOA edition) Humbert talks about development more generally, and I quote that "the bud-stage of breast development appears early (10.7) in the sequence of somatic changes accompanying pubescence. And the next maturational item available is the first appearance of pigmented pubic hair (11.2)"

Now I would posit that in a Medieval society, even amongst the aristocracy, puberty is reached later than it was in 1930's and 1940's Europe and America. So whilst it's possible that Sansa has breast development (which in the clothes she was wearing-overly tight since Cersei didn't give Sansa new clothes, and also Medieval clothing was designed to look like that of an adult's) taller men who only see Sansa in clothes notice her breasts. Yet Tyrion, who sees Sansa without clothes notices that she is both hipless and relatively hairless.

Hence the "You're a child" comment

[Raksha the Demon]

On the best way to describe Sansa, I think she’s really in that in that in-between period that women go through just after their puberty: looking like a woman, acting like a child. Though, as you said, she’s not thinking so much like one anymore. At the night of her wedding, when she undressed herself, Tyrion’s first words are to tell her she’s a child. It goes against what we’ve been told since then. A few chapters before, she was thinking at how womanly her body was becoming, even the seamstress comments on how her breasts were growing to become as nice as the Queen’s. This makes me believe that Tyrion’s comment is more meant on her attitude then her looks. She is so shy and tensed that she looks more like a frighten child then a woman. Tyrion is clearly not turned on by that, after that terrible first night together, she’s going to keep the same attitude, which is probably what saved her from other unwanted sexual advances from him. So as you said, he’s going to continue to view her as a child after that because of her attitude (not opening-up to him). Sansa, with that attitude, did the best thing she could to get him to be unattached by her.

I think of a 'woman' as a female with fully developed physical attributes; not a girl who's nearly 13. She might have attained her adult height and be growing an already attractive pair of breasts, but a not-quite-13-year-old would not have a woman's body; she would not have completely filled out. And Tyrion comes to the conclusion that she's a child when he's ogling naked Sansa, not dressed-up Sansa, right? So I think Tyrion did see Sansa as a girl who is more a child than a woman, not yet full-grown physically and still mostly a little girl emotionally.

If they do this scene in the TV series - though I very much doubt that there will be full nudity, since I think Sophie Turner will still be a minor when they film it - they might have to change the wording, since Sophie Turner will be 16 or 17 and will definitely look physically more like a woman than a child. She seems to be physically mature for her age; and definitely has grown physically since Season One.

It's sad that Tyrion had to see Sansa naked before deciding not to subject her to the trauma of having sex with him. He did refer to her as a 'child' when he spoke of her to Tywin...I think that Tyrion thought of Sansa as a child until she was dangled before him as a marital prize. Then he conveniently switched his conception of Sansa to that of a bride, a Tysha-replacement, and makes the situation far worse by telling her what a great lover he can be. Finally, Tyrion's sanity returns, after he realizes that this is a scared little girl who is definitely not ready for sex, bride or not.