A thread for not wise and not beautiful. So you do not like Sansa Stark?

[a free shadow]

I was having a good time lately watching a couple of threads about Sansa Stark. Not once had my drink went up my nose :)The title for this thread was born after I've read this exchange:

X: The only way I could love Sansa any more is if she was a Martell.

Y: You are clearly a wise and beautiful person.

Now, this topic is not for bashing. Not for endorsing either, of course :D It is just a shelter for not wise and not beautiful like me, who do not care for Sansa Stark a whole lot :lol: Can we share what characters we do care about and like?

I'll go first.

Gendry Waters. Because he is kind and strong and sensible.

And Syrio Forel, because he makes his own luck, because he is having adventures, talks in riddles and is very wise.

And Podrick Payne, because he is there when you need him, because he does not pretend or lie.

And Arya Stark, because she fights the odds, because she works hard without a thought of complaint, because she loves and hates fiercely

Come, tell your story. You, who are unwise and unbeautiful. :D

[Jonny Superbucks]

Aemon Targaryen. Such a sad character... When he said, "Egg, I dreamed I was old," I cried on a bus full of strangers. I had to shrug off their stares and think, "If you only knew, you'd be right here with me."

Tommen, because he is an innocent and a sweetheart. Absolutely adorable. I hate that such a sweet boy is surrounded by schemers and creeps. He had me in stitches when he decided that he wanted to outlaw beets.

Tywin Lannister, I absolutely love as a villain. He just commands so much respect and has a presence about him that most fictional characters do not. When he glares at someone, I feel tempted to avert my eyes from the book in submission.

There are a few more, but I just realized that I'm running late for work!

[Revan Baratheon]

This thread is misleading.I thought there would be Sansa bashing :(

[a free shadow]

There are a few more, but I just realized that I'm running late for work!

Come back and tell more! I'm with you about Aemon and beets!

This thread is misleading.I thought there would be Sansa bashing :(

You can like Tyrion or Littlefinger here though :lol:

[chris999]

Honestly, I dont give a shit about Sansa or her damn lemon cakes.

The only reason I even like her chapters is because of Littlefinger.

[a free shadow]

Oh have patience, young grasshopper! Sansa may yet get...

Oh, please, please please lady Christina, do not give life for this "discussion". We have so much better things to talk about. :)

[Melifeather]

There are characters I love and characters I love to hate, but wouldn't they still be characters I love? ;)

[SerFelixCulpa]

Care about and like? Probably a minority position, but I'd go with Septon Meribald. Perhaps the only truly selfless and realistically "good" character in the books. He had to walk through hell to get there too, in his youth he saw and experienced the horrors of war. He actually uses his life in an attempt to give comfort and assistance to the lowest of the low. He talks the talk and walks the walk (barefooted no less).

BTW, my personal theory is that sooner or later (whether in the narrative of the story or else at the end) he'll actually end up being High Septon of the Faith. No real evidence for it, I just find it hard to accept that GRRM introduced such a character merely to give a little exposition and "guide" Brienne and company for a little while. (It would also be a neat tie-in to some back history since it is mentioned somewhere there was once an illiterate High Septon...Meribald is illiterate though he has memorized the Seven-Pointed Star.)

[deleted01]

Aemon Targaryen. Such a sad character... When he said, "Egg, I dreamed I was old," I cried on a bus full of strangers. I had to shrug off their stares and think, "If you only knew, you'd be right here with me."

This. Read that chapter last night, sniffled myself to sleep :bawl:

I love Syrio, because he's just awesome.

Arya, because she's brave, a true survivor, a fighter and wise beyond her years.

Podrick Payne is brave, cute when he stutters, and always does the right thing. It broke my heart when he told Brienne that he'd been Tyrion's squire, but Tyrion had left him :crying:

Tyrion is immense. I can't even describe how much I love that little rogue.

As for Sansa, I've actually grown to like her a bit more on my reread. She still irritates me, with her whining and her girlish ways, but I think that only serves to emphasise how much she's been through, yet how little it's changed her. That also shows that she's a strong girl, but in a completely different way to Arya. Arya changed herself, her name, her appearance, adapted to fit into each situation. She learned how to use her sword and had killed others to save herself and her friends. While Sansa is now Alayne, she has always had someone know who she really is, always had someone else to rely on (whether or not they're trustworthy is a different matter), but the fact that, despite everything, she can still find it in herself to make a snow-castle and take joy in the little things like that, it just touched my heart a bit. She is not as adaptable as Arya, but she has still survived where other more obviously strong women have fallen.

But yeah, Sansa-bash all you like, her whingeing about her fucking lemon cakes drove me up the Wall (capitalisation was done on purpose, there :P ), but above is just my interpretation on my reread - and once I'd gotten past how annoying she can be :lol:

[Woman of War]

I don't want to bash Sansa, I only wished she were seen as what she is: a little girl abused and in need of help.

She is not awesome, not particularly clever and witty, her wishes and dreams are rather conventional and her good looks give her nothing but trouble. In short, she is a totally average girl at the beginning of puberty.

I personally see no reason to worship her. She is a child I want happy and protected, growing up in safety, hopefully untouched by sexual or even erotic expectations by anyone much older. And I hope girls her age have many years ahead of them learning and growing up - and being happily childish as long as they want.

There is virtually nothing special about Sansa and I believe that is intended by Martin: she is an easy path for us readers into the story. Her POVs are often wonderfully written, we see Martin's world through her naive eyes and so get easy access to it, a literary method used by Martin to explain his world to us, the seemingly clueless observer who gives us wise insight, passing it to us with big astonished eyes. The Forrest Gump trick, giving us truly important informations we can value but the character within the story doesn't truly understand them.

But she is growing up. Maybe the author decides to turn her into a character truly acting, not in the sense of the so very overused word "player", apparently Sansa has to buy the right to be part of the game by killing either the evil Littlefinger or Tyrion or both in the eyes of many posters. But maybe the autor gives her an independent life, her own adult identity and the freedom to be her own woman, not any man's.

Enough about Sansa. sorry for clogging this thread, the character Sansa has more than enough space in these forums.

But I get disappointed when the infatuation with that child - she is thirteen ! - causes disproportionate hatred towards characters who have somehow been led into conflicting situations with Sansa by the author. This happened actually to some of my favorite characters like Tyrion and Cersei, even Baelish, who are great literary inventions. Posters wish for them the most cruel and ugly deaths, simply because e. g. Tyrion is seen as being in the way of a happy and romantic ending for Sansa.

Well, fortunately Martin does not read these forums.

And my faves are Tyrion, Arya and :blushing: Daeneris and Cersei. THIS!

And I would like to hear more about Missandei, about Septon Meribald, about Sam, about Mance Ryder and Ed Tollet.......

[Independent George]

Tommen, because he is an innocent and a sweetheart. Absolutely adorable. I hate that such a sweet boy is surrounded by schemers and creeps. He had me in stitches when he decided that he wanted to outlaw beets.

Are we absolutely sure he's a Lannister? I love that kid!

[a free shadow]

Are we absolutely sure he's a Lannister? I love that kid!

I think no one cared enough to make him a Lannister. And he just spent time with Ser Pounce. Tommen, raised by kittens :) Kids can turn out allright when Cersei rejects them a little.

[brashcandy]

I don't want to bash Sansa, I only wished she were seen as what she is: a little girl abused and in need of help.

Sansa's need for help - especially from Littlefinger - is constantly being discussed, so I don't understand this claim you're making. What you're trying to do is infantilize a girl that Martin is showing moving from the stage of child to maiden to young adult. Sansa has always been in the process of development - her outlook on life changing as rapidly as her physical body. And most of the people who like her as a character appreciate that she's at the stage of her life where she's going to have to save herself.

She is not awesome, not particularly clever and witty, her wishes and dreams are rather conventional and her good looks give her nothing but trouble. In short, she is a totally average girl at the beginning of puberty.

I happen to think she's awesome and clever, but like every other single character in the series, she's made mistakes due to her age and naivete. Lots of people have shown naive outlooks on the world and they didn't have age to at least explain their foolishness. For some reason, a lot of posters believe that unless a character is witty or able to banter impressively with words, they are somehow lacking. I guess I'll count you as one of those?

I personally see no reason to worship her. She is a child I want happy and protected, growing up in safety, hopefully untouched by sexual or even erotic expectations by anyone much older. And I hope girls her age have many years ahead of them learning and growing up - and being happily childish as long as they want.

Using a term like worshipping is misleading. I love Sansa and enjoy talking about her, so does this constitute worshipping in your mind? Isn't this how you feel about a character like Tyrion for example? You like him and enjoy talking about him, so you do so? This is fiction at the end of the day, and whilst in our world we can wish such lovely experiences on the young girls we may know, it isn't the world Martin has created for Sansa. Burying our heads in the sand, and refusing to see how he's developing her as a character and the relationships she has with other people would not get us very far in making substantive analyses of her experiences and the growth she shows throughout her arc. We all want Sansa to be happy and not be sexually abused, but we have to confront Martin's text as he presents it to us and give an honest rendering of what we find there.

There is virtually nothing special about Sansa

I beg to differ. In a world like Westeros, Sansa's empathy, her compassion, kindness and dignity in the face of cruelty and mistreatment are all very special qualities. So far she's shown she's been able to hold onto these qualities, despite a concentrated assault from many of the characters she's interacted with. I'd say this is quite remarkable and noteworthy.

and I believe that is intended by Martin: she is an easy path for us readers into the story. Her POVs are often wonderfully written, we see Martin's world through her naive eyes and so get easy access to it, a literary method used by Martin to explain his world to us, the seemingly clueless observer who gives us wise insight, passing it to us with big astonished eyes. The Forrest Gump trick, giving us truly important informations we can value but the character within the story doesn't truly understand them.

Martin has not written Sansa as a static character that we can all easily identify with and see the world through her eyes at all. As I've noted elsewhere, readers are actually encouraged to disidentify with Sansa, as she's portrayed as clueless to the likes of Joffrey and Cersei, and as being the one who goes and tells of her father's plans. It's taken a long time for a lot of readers to forgive Sansa for this, and to begin to value her as POV character. And Martin doesn't merely show Sansa observing her world, but specifically how that world impacts on her beliefs, challenges her perceptions, and in turn, how she manages to negotiate with the world she's been thrust into. It's a dynamic, riveting process and it's why Sansa intrigues so many persons.

But she is growing up. Maybe the author decides to turn her into a character truly acting, not in the sense of the so very overused word "player", apparently Sansa has to buy the right to be part of the game by killing either the evil Littlefinger or Tyrion or both in the eyes of many posters. But maybe the autor gives her an independent life, her own adult identity and the freedom to be her own woman, not any man's.

Yes, and this would be wonderful if she got to choose how she wanted her life to turn out, but right now she does have to learn how to become a player in the game of thrones, especially because she's been for the most part, a pawn. She needs to kill Littlefinger because he's been the one who has been most abusive to her and is basically responsible for the events that lead to her parents' downfall. As for Tyrion, she doesn't need to kill him, but if he returns to attempt to keep her in the marriage against her will and to force her to have sex with him because she's his wife, then I'd have no problem at all with her killing him. As it is, both LF and Tyrion remain credible candidates for the savage giant prophecy.

Enough about Sansa. sorry for clogging this thread, the character Sansa has more than enough space in these forums.

But I get disappointed when the infatuation with that child - she is thirteen ! - causes disproportionate hatred towards characters who have somehow been led into conflicting situations with Sansa by the author. This happened actually to some of my favorite characters like Tyrion and Cersei, even Baelish, who are great literary inventions. Posters wish for them the most cruel and ugly deaths, simply because e. g. Tyrion is seen as being in the way of a happy and romantic ending for Sansa.

So you consider Cersei, Tyrion and LF great literary interventions but can't see why others might think the same of Sansa? And no one wants Tyrion to suffer some awful end because he's getting in the way of a happy ending for Sansa. It would be to the benefit of both characters if the marriage was annulled and they were able to find other suitable partners.

Well, fortunately Martin does not read these forums.

Amen to that.

And my faves are Tyrion, Arya and :blushing: Daeneris and Cersei. THIS!

And I would like to hear more about Missandei, about Septon Meribald, about Sam, about Mance Ryder and Ed Tollet.......

Sansa is a POV character, and like all POV characters she will continue to be discussed at length. If there's an interesting secondary character that appeals to people then the same thing will happen. Is the frequent discussion of certain characters somehow preventing you from learning more about your favs?

[Nightfyre]

I used to hate Sansa so much because of her actions concerning Ned. But now I have hope because she might help bring back the Starks to the North

[JKeats]

I glance through the Sandor and Sansa threads from time to time. I think there are something like 30 or 40 of them, all post capped, generally featuring the same people.

It's a bizzare world in there.

[lostinwesteros]

Not in any order:

• Osha
  
• Qhorin Halfhand
  
• Brienne
  
• Arya
  
• Tyrion
  
• Jaime
  
• Jon
  
• Syrio
  
• Gendry
  

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I think no one cared enough to make him a Lannister. And he just spent time with Ser Pounce. Tommen, raised by kittens :) Kids can turn out allright when Cersei rejects them a little.

It seems to the case, doesn't it?

[TheBull]

Oh great....

Man, it really is tough to be a Sansa fan in this fandom. Or a fan of most of the female characters who aren't Arya. Everywhere you go, all you see is vile hate being thrown at them and most can't even articulate their dislike beyond "they're stupid sluts".

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Why is it that people give Sansa the benefit of being a naive and abused child, but not Daenerys? I've always seen Sansa as a spoiled, selfish one dimensional brat until Ned died. I had sympathy for her during the beatings that she endured and I'm scared that she may have to endure Petyr's little finger in the near future, however, all of her actions cannot be attributed to her naivete.

[Lady Kraken]

Why is it that people give Sansa the benefit of being a naive and abused child, but not Daenerys?

I've personally seen quite a few people give Daenerys this benefit, but you're right, not enough. Arya, Sansa, and Daenerys are all young girls who have suffered abuse and started the series naive in their own ways. Of course their subsequent actions should be understood in the context of their ages and situations.

It's when people pit them against each other that annoys me to no end (particularly when it comes to Arya and Sansa). Arya is strong in a different way than Sansa who is strong in a different way than Daenerys and so on. Just because their strengths are different does not make one's strength less valid than the other's. People are going to agree with the choices of one character more and enjoy one character's story more, but, in the end, they've all proven themselves to be survivors in a brutal world. None of them are useless or can be summed up as just a "little girl abused and in need of help."

For example, if Sansa had escaped King's Landing after Ned's death instead of Arya, she wouldn't have endured like Arya. If Arya had stayed in King's Landing after Ned's death, she wouldn't have endured like Sansa. If either Arya or Sansa were forced to marry Drogo and into a rather brutal culture completely foreign to them... I honestly don't even want to think about it.

Anyways, that's just my two cents! While I wouldn't count Daenerys amongst my favorites, I do care about all of them and their futures.

You can like Tyrion or Littlefinger here though :lol:

I happen to enjoy Tyrion, Littlefinger and Sansa. :dunno: