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A thread for not wise and not beautiful. So you do not like Sansa Stark?


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Mance Rayder. Combines ability with charisma. His butt should be on the Iron Throne.

Maester Aemon. A long, long lifetime well spent.

Old Nan. Repository of folk history. GRRM should do a book of her stories.

Ser Barristan Selmy, awesome old dude. Only needs three pops from his staff to waste a badass sellsword who attacks Dany from ambush.

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I don't want to bash Sansa, I only wished she were seen as what she is: a little girl abused and in need of help.

She is not awesome, not particularly clever and witty, her wishes and dreams are rather conventional and her good looks give her nothing but trouble. In short, she is a totally average girl at the beginning of puberty.

I personally see no reason to worship her. She is a child I want happy and protected, growing up in safety, hopefully untouched by sexual or even erotic expectations by anyone much older. And I hope girls her age have many years ahead of them learning and growing up - and being happily childish as long as they want.

There is virtually nothing special about Sansa and I believe that is intended by Martin: she is an easy path for us readers into the story. Her POVs are often wonderfully written, we see Martin's world through her naive eyes and so get easy access to it, a literary method used by Martin to explain his world to us, the seemingly clueless observer who gives us wise insight, passing it to us with big astonished eyes. The Forrest Gump trick, giving us truly important informations we can value but the character within the story doesn't truly understand them.

But she is growing up. Maybe the author decides to turn her into a character truly acting, not in the sense of the so very overused word "player", apparently Sansa has to buy the right to be part of the game by killing either the evil Littlefinger or Tyrion or both in the eyes of many posters. But maybe the autor gives her an independent life, her own adult identity and the freedom to be her own woman, not any man's.

Enough about Sansa. sorry for clogging this thread, the character Sansa has more than enough space in these forums.

But I get disappointed when the infatuation with that child - she is thirteen ! - causes disproportionate hatred towards characters who have somehow been led into conflicting situations with Sansa by the author. This happened actually to some of my favorite characters like Tyrion and Cersei, even Baelish, who are great literary inventions. Posters wish for them the most cruel and ugly deaths, simply because e. g. Tyrion is seen as being in the way of a happy and romantic ending for Sansa.

Well, fortunately Martin does not read these forums.

And my faves are Tyrion, Arya and :blushing: Daeneris and Cersei. THIS!

And I would like to hear more about Missandei, about Septon Meribald, about Sam, about Mance Ryder and Ed Tollet.......

Wait a minute. Wait a minute? What wise insight has she given us? Seriously every time a read the word tummy I almost lose it. I don't read fantasy books to learn about average 11 year old girls. I don't read anything to learn about average 11 year old girls, I don't want to know about average 11 year old girls. I felt the same way about Bran, unreadable, but at least he got some magic power at some point.

I almost missed out on the awesomeness that is littlefinger because Sansa chapters are so horrible.

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For example, if Sansa had escaped King's Landing after Ned's death instead of Arya, she wouldn't have endured like Arya. If Arya had stayed in King's Landing after Ned's death, she wouldn't have endured like Sansa. If either Arya or Sansa were forced to marry Drogo and into a rather brutal culture completely foreign to them... I honestly don't even want to think about it.

I agree that Sansa would not have endured out in the world, like little Arya would have been killed trying to kill Joffrey and Cersei of she had stayed. As far are brutal culture goes, Arya was totally submerged in brutality as was Daenerys, the major difference was that she didn't have to endure rapes on a daily basis.

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I glance through the Sandor and Sansa threads from time to time. I think there are something like 30 or 40 of them, all post capped, generally featuring the same people.

It's a bizzare world in there.

Really? Wow... It's hard to imagine that over time a pattern would develop with posters who are interested in a particular character or topic. That kind of thing never happens in multiple versions of a thread, for example with the Heresy ones on ADWD. Nope.

Why is it that people give Sansa the benefit of being a naive and abused child, but not Daenerys? I've always seen Sansa as a spoiled, selfish one dimensional brat until Ned died. I had sympathy for her during the beatings that she endured and I'm scared that she may have to endure Petyr's little finger in the near future, however, all of her actions cannot be attributed to her naivete.

So she was spoiled and one-dimensional when she:

1. didn't cry like Jeyne when she was faced with the death of the knight at the tourney and was able to rationalise why she didn't feel overwhelming emotion?

2. comforted the Hound after learning of what Gregor did to him?

3. went to beg Joffrey at court to spare her father's life and wasn't daunted by the hostility of the people in the room?

I can understand that people may not have been very fond of Sansa in AGOT, and she does make mistakes, but even then Martin clearly imbues her characterization with nuances that highlight the compassion and strength she shows later on. She's never been a one dimensional character.

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Daenerys Targaryen - I like for pretty much the same reasons people liking Sansa point out. I like the development in her arc and strenght and wits she demonstrates.

Arya Stark - I like her because she is the exact opposite of her sister. I mean how can you not like this miscevous little girl which also turn out to be very smart and very adaptable. She is also training to become the ultimate assassin which makes her one of the most badass characters IMO.

I don't like Sansa because of her unabiliti to learn and the fact that she's just a little spoiled brat. I can understand her view of the world at first. Being grown up as a proper lady in a castle with all those sweet stories about beautiful ladies and brave knights explains it all. What bothers me is that when she is confronted with the brutal reality she denies to see the truth behind it. For me that's plain stupidity. What is even more stupid is her telling her father's plans to the queen. I remember I almost shout out loud "you stupid little b**ch" after I read about it. Maybe it's due to the fact that I was raised with the principle I shouldn't tell other people what I've heard my father comment but I do really think that this the single most stupid action in the whole series. I really can't see her becoming player in anything but "enter my castle"

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Really? Wow... It's hard to imagine that over time a pattern would develop with posters who are interested in a particular character or topic. That kind of thing never happens in multiple versions of a thread, for example with the Heresy ones on ADWD. Nope.

So she was spoiled and one-dimensional when she:

1. didn't cry like Jeyne when she was faced with the death of the knight at the tourney and was able to rationalise why she didn't feel overwhelming emotion?

2. comforted the Hound after learning of what Gregor did to him?

3. went to beg Joffrey at court to spare her father's life and wasn't daunted by the hostility of the people in the room?

I can understand that people may not have been very fond of Sansa in AGOT, and she does make mistakes, but even then Martin clearly imbues her characterization with nuances that highlight the compassion and strength she shows later on. She's never been a one dimensional character.

Yes, she was one dimensional and boring in AGoT until she started to see the real world when Ned was arrested.

Went against her family, lied and sided with Joffrey because she wanted to marry a handsome prince.

Went against her fathers back to Cersei because she wanted to marry a handsome prince.

"Went to beg Joffrey at court to spare her father's life and wasn't daunted by the hostility of the people in the room?" My opinion of her wouldn't have changed if she hadn't begged for her fathers life.

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Atlast we can agree on something.I hate Sansa chapters just as much as you,and whenever that bitch sweetrobin pops up i really wish sansa would throttle that bastard's neck and chuck him out of the moon door.

Seriously most of the chicks who like Sansa are ones who probably:1) Imagine themselves as her or 2) Cant wait to have a daughter like her...ugh :stillsick:

I don't hate Sansa's chapters, however, I agree with everything else.
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I am not pretty and I do not really compare myself with her, and I certainly so not want to have daughters like her, but I do like her very much as a literary character who is well developed, has an interesting story and beautifully written chapters. She went from a too trusting naive little girl, easily misled, to a scarred character who needs somebody to really like her because of herself and feel with her. She is now afraid of trusting everybody, so she has to learn to trust again. I feel sorry for her beacuse of everything she went through.

My favourite action of her was refusing to kneel to Tyrion on their wedding. I so cheered for her at that moment.

She should be so lucky.

You are just trolling, right?

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I beg to differ. In a world like Westeros, Sansa's empathy, her compassion, kindness and dignity in the face of cruelty and mistreatment are all very special qualities. So far she's shown she's been able to hold onto these qualities, despite a concentrated assault from many of the characters she's interacted with. I'd say this is quite remarkable and noteworthy.

Martin has not written Sansa as a static character that we can all easily identify with and see the world through her eyes at all. As I've noted elsewhere, readers are actually encouraged to disidentify with Sansa, as she's portrayed as clueless to the likes of Joffrey and Cersei, and as being the one who goes and tells of her father's plans. It's taken a long time for a lot of readers to forgive Sansa for this, and to begin to value her as POV character. And Martin doesn't merely show Sansa observing her world, but specifically how that world impacts on her beliefs, challenges her perceptions, and in turn, how she manages to negotiate with the world she's been thrust into. It's a dynamic, riveting process and it's why Sansa intrigues so many persons.

first point a) Sansa's my favourite character, but I've never understood Sansa's compassion. I mean why did she save Lancel's life. She should have left him to die and the world would have 1 less Lannister in it.

However he has since become a Septon, and may be killed by Franken Gregor, so he is fortunately not likely to reproduce. But Sansa's actions towards Lancel were very strange.

i think people like to think that were they in Sansa's situation they would behave like Arya would:

And on the encouraged to disidentify with Sansa.

Sansa Stark is what a person would be: a person of her own culture, time and place with the limitations of that time and place, especially in AGOT but in different ways in ACOK.

Sansa is snobby in AGOT, and we like to think that were we aristocrats we would be like Arya and get along with peasants; Sansa likes dresses and embroidery, and we like to think that like Arya we are above such vain and worldy things as fashion and better than trivial feminine pursuits such as embroidery; instead Sansa dislikes horse riding and sword fighting, and we like to think that like Arya we would enjoy freely riding horses and going against gender norms by fighting with swords; in AGOT Sansa is impressed by the pageantry of Kings Landing, and we like to think that like Arya we would be able to see such a place as shallow in comparison to the more authentic, rustic, honourable North; in AGOT Sansa is unable to see through Cersei and Joffrey's masks into the evil within, and we like to think that we like Arya, would be able to identify people like Cersei and Joffrey as being evil; in AGOT Sansa is unable to discern the danger that Ned is in vis the Lannisters and so she wants to stay in Kings Landing, and we like to think that we like Arya, who was able to see through the Lannisters and court pageantry would be able to discern that our father's political situation was precarious (especially since Ned actually explains things to Arya, but takes Sansa's obeidience as a given, very much like the father in the prodigal son); then in ACOK Sansa is kept an isolated prisoner and is unable to escape, and we like to think that we like Arya would boldly escape and valiantly start making our way to Riverrun in the company of Yoren the "wise old mentor" type; in ACOK Sansa is forced to say things like "By Brothers, father and mother are traitors" and we like to think that like Arya we would boldly stand up for our family's cause; in ACOK Sansa is savagely beaten and humiliated yet remains polite and says how much she loves Joffrey with all her heart, and we like to think that we, like Arya, would fight back and boldly vanquish our foes; in ASOS Sansa is forced to marry a deformed older man who fought hard to keep Joffrey and Cersei in power, who marries her for her claim and to expand Lannister power whilst he makes vulgar jokes at her expense, so people with no empathy like to think that the more awesome Arya, and themselves would see Tyrion's true inner beauty :ack: and not be trapped by the cage of 'courtesy armour" (hint folks Sansa's courtesy is her armour, and Tyrion is Sansa's enemy, you don't take off your armour in front of your enemies) , a more empathetic but not especially clever reader would like to think that they like the more awesome badass Arya (see Arya's reaction to Sansa's marriage) would boldly resist the marriage or and slit Tyrion's throat and escape into the night*.

Arya, being a fantasy heroine has the heroine's ability to identify the villain and heroine's ability to fight back (no matter how silly it is for an 11 year old girl to fight like Arya) and readers like to think they are heroes and would act like awesome badass Arya.

Yet in actual fact, had they been raised the oldest daughter of a Medieval lord like Sansa, they would probably be very happy embroidering, wearing beautiful clothes and wouldn't really enjoy spending time with stinking peasants; had they, this daughter of a Medieval lord, been taken to all the pageantry and colour of London and Paris from some rural backwater they too would have been impressed by the pageantry and liveliness; had they, this daughter of a medieval lord, been ill-educated and raised to think that treason was wrong, to respect kings, that queens were beautiful and good, and princes and knights were honourable and chivalrous, they too would have failed to see through Cersei and Joffrey or perceived the political dangers in Kings Landing.

People like to think that if they lived in some distant time or place they would be able to see through such a culture and have the same modern ethics that they do today. But Sansa, by being a creature of her time and place and thus in awe of royalty, pageantry and knights and thus unable to see Cersei and Joffrey's evil until the end of AGOT, reminds readers that they too are creatures of their time and place and had they lived in Middle Ages, they too would be in awe of royalty, pageantry and knights, but unlike Sansa, they would probably also be superstitious, stupid and cruel, since superstition, stupidity and watching public executions as a form of entertainment is a feature of our Middle Ages, though it is less prevalent in Westeros.

Furthermore had they, this daughter of a Medieval Lord, been kept hostage by people who abused them as Sansa was in ACOK; and they had, like the supposedly awesome Arya, swore at their goalers, been truthful and fought back; they would have been beaten even more brutally, kept chained up in solitary confinement, if Joffrey didn't impulsively have their heads chopped off...Needless to say, it would have been hard for Sansa to organise her escape attempts with Ser Dontos had she been in chained up in the Black Cells. Had they, this daughter of a Medieval lord, at the age of 12, been forced to marry a deformed man who worked tirelessly to keep their enemies in power, who married them for their claim and to expand his own cultures power (like say a Romanian or Serbian Orthodox girl being forced to marry a Turk) whose vulgar jokes seem to foreshadow their imminent rape, they would not have even tried to see Tyrion's inner beauty (like Sansa does), but would have rather vomited all over themselves in fear and disgust, rather than exhibited Sansa's dignified refusal to kneel and her cold refusal to ever sleep with Tyrion. Or had they slit Tyrion's throat, then they would have found themselves raped, and then tortured to death. Needless to say had Sansa followed any of these impulsive and heroic actions in ACOK and ASOS, she would not have been able to escape.

Nobody likes to think about the fact that actually being in a situation like Sansa's, Arya's heroics would actually result in permanent captivity or death, since it makes people uncomfortable to realise that boldness and individualism are unsustainable in such captivity. Instead such a situation requires courtesy, self-control and the pragmatism to keep sweet whilst still maintaining the psychological strength to remember that all goalers, even those like Tyrion, who pretend to be nice, are enemies who are not to be trusted. Which nobody likes to think about since, modern culture belittle as trivial and false things like courtesy and self-control. Whilst modern culture naively believes that to not 'be ourselves' and 'express our true hearts' is to be a sellout, and that somehow people whose every single goal is in conflict with our own can be trusted as allies...

Sansa's arc is an uncomfortable experience in reality...

Arya is what people would like to think they would be in that situation. Sansa is what they would actually be in that situation (if they were as wise as Sansa...)

*Not that I am against Sansa having Tyrion thrown out of a boat, but she should do it when she has the power and position to do so without it costing her own life.

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ITT: We don't want to bash Sansa, we just want to bash Sansa fans.

[mod] Let's make this clear: nobody is to 'bash' other users, individually or as groups. If you want to discuss the books, fine. If you want to play cliques, go elsewhere. [/mod]

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Not again :bang: We had such a perfect first answer in here, but soon all went into the same old direction. Oh, you people! :fencing:

If you don't want to talk about Sansa, don't put something negative about her in the title of your thread. That's just asking for trouble, as it would be with any other even moderately controversial character (Tyrion, Arya, Catelyn, Daenerys and the list goes on and on and on...). Someone's inevitably going to say something negative about her, and someone is inevitably going to respond to it.

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egads.....these are books and fictional characters.

each one is developed differently to provide variety and to further plot devices.

if everyone was arya....what would be the point?

besides...i rather would have a daughter like sansa vs arya

gee, i dont know, i guess i dont want my daughter to turn into a cold-blooded assassin.

each girl is different.....sansa is more emotional and in many ways "gets it" whereas arya is a bit more black and white. example, when she finds out that sansa is married to tyrion, she immediately dismisses it as stupid instead of being wise and figuring out maybe her sister doesn't have a say

same as when arya finds out about her mother release jaime....

by this time, arya is 11....the same age sansa was when first brought to KL

each girl is simply a different character with different qualities.....

oh...lol....wait....arya acts more....male

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I agree that Sansa would not have endured out in the world, like little Arya would have been killed trying to kill Joffrey and Cersei of she had stayed. As far are brutal culture goes, Arya was totally submerged in brutality as was Daenerys, the major difference was that she didn't have to endure rapes on a daily basis.

I don't think so. Arya would have pushed Joffrey into the moat when he took her up to see Ned's head. Sandor would have lied to cover for her and said Joff failed. Tommen would have become king and everyone would have been secretly relieved.

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egads.....these are books and fictional characters.

each one is developed differently to provide variety and to further plot devices.

if everyone was arya....what would be the point?

besides...i rather would have a daughter like sansa vs arya

gee, i dont know, i guess i dont want my daughter to turn into a cold-blooded assassin.

each girl is different.....sansa is more emotional and in many ways "gets it" whereas arya is a bit more black and white. example, when she finds out that sansa is married to tyrion, she immediately dismisses it as stupid instead of being wise and figuring out maybe her sister doesn't have a say

same as when arya finds out about her mother release jaime....

by this time, arya is 11....the same age sansa was when first brought to KL

each girl is simply a different character with different qualities.....

oh...lol....wait....arya acts more....male

And Sansa acts more like a Disney princess. It answers the question what if those characters were in a realistic period setting, nothing good. Sansa is a waste of space. If my 11 year old daughter was a magical ninja assassin, I would be proud. No seriously, your kid got their greenbelt? My daughter can slice off people's faces and use them as a disguise. I would definitely send her after my enemies list. What is Sansa good for, she's like one of those life sized Barbie dolls for Catelyn to play with and dress up.

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And Sansa acts more like a Disney princess. It answers the question what if those characters were in a realistic period setting, nothing good. Sansa is a waste of space. If my 11 year old daughter was a magical ninja assassin, I would be proud. No seriously, your kid got their greenbelt? My daughter can slice off people's faces and use them as a disguise. I would definitely send her after my enemies list. What is Sansa good for, she's like one of those life sized Barbie dolls for Catelyn to play with and dress up.

What is Sansa good for? Conciliation.

You want to keep the peace, you don't do it by killing people you disagree with, you do it by smiling and being nice.

Sansa is made to be a politician, she can hide her feelings much better than Arya, with all her FM training can.

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