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A thread for not wise and not beautiful. So you do not like Sansa Stark?


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Yes, precisely, and on top of that, it's how the Disney princesses to be happy have to marry a prince (or similar). On their own, they have no value, their quest is to get married = happiness, fulfillment and the reason for life.

It irks even more when Sansa is compared to a Disney princess, since what she is trying to get away from is the backwards reactionary notion that a woman's path leads only to a fairy tale marriage wherein she needs to be taken care of by her gallant husband and only exist to decorate his side. Of course, in Westeros reality is far, far removed from this, which is exactly what her character arc is about. The piercing of lies and the astute assessment of reality.

When I think about both the novels of Ann Radcliffe and Jane Austen, in Austen (haven't read an Ann Radcliff just learnt the stories from Northanger Abbey) marriage is a path to freedom.

Since to be a spinster is to be poor and relient on brothers and cousins.

So for instance Sansa marrying Harry the Heir would give her freedom, since in Westeros freedom is power.

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The only thing I hinted at negatively at my first post is the way of "discussion" in here. I don not like Sansa, but it is very very near "I do not care about her". Do you think that is a negative thing to say politely? I opened a bar for dancing and I've got the "moral police" here saying I can not do this.

It might have been fine, if it were not the same words, sentences, arguments, some people here posted in hundreds of other threads. It has infected this thread like a fungus. And many other threads.

The method of learning is observation. Next time I might post a link directing people back to their old and same discussion. It might not work, but there should be some escape route.

I have zero problem with you saying something negative about Sansa; I love a good debate. I'm just saying if you don't want her to come up in conversation in this manner, don't mention her in the title of your thread. :dunno:

Though I do understand your frustrations and was sorry about contributing to the derailment of your thread, I just don't think putting "So you don't like Sansa Stark?" in the title was a good way of avoiding conversation about her. I was not trying to play "moral police" by any means. There's absolutely nothing amoral about not liking a certain character and wanting to talk about such or, in your case, not wanting to talk about such. I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just surprised you were surprised the thread ended up going in this direction.

Edit: Also, many, many apologies if my other post offended you! When I'm still on here after 1am, sometimes my posts start getting crankier.

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The only thing I hinted at negatively at my first post is the way of "discussion" in here. I don not like Sansa, but it is very very near "I do not care about her". Do you think that is a negative thing to say politely? I opened a bar for dancing and I've got the "moral police" here saying I can not do this.

It might have been fine, if it were not the same words, sentences, arguments, some people here posted in hundreds of other threads. It has infected this thread like a fungus. And many other threads.

The method of learning is observation. Next time I might post a link directing people back to their old and same discussion. It might not work, but there should be some escape route.

Mumbaiwalla!

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When I think about both the novels of Ann Radcliffe and Jane Austen, in Austen (haven't read an Ann Radcliff just learnt the stories from Northanger Abbey) marriage is a path to freedom.

Since to be a spinster is to be poor and relient on brothers and cousins.

So for instance Sansa marrying Harry the Heir would give her freedom, since in Westeros freedom is power.

Well, it would depends, wouldn't it? Jane Austen's world, while lovely, is still very much aware of that you need to marry and you need to marry well in order to succeed in this world. Sure, there are some hidden commentary about hideous marriages (see Mr Collins and Charlotte Lucas for an example) and that to marry for love is better, but there is no doubt about it that marriage does not always lead to freedom, or a happy life. It is at that time basically the only way to financial safety/freedom/a decent life, but not described as uniformly charming, unlike in the Disney movies where it is described as only charming and as the best of all good things.

Sansa might end up feeling the same way as Arya about getting married (no thanks ser), but she will probably go through with it anyway for the sake of politics. Will it bring her freedom? I guess we will see.

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Arya is no murderer, she gives the gift of the many face god.

The next time I am angry of the guy (not) handleing my student loan and kill him in a fit of rage this is going to be my defense strategy. "I did not kill him. I just gave him a beautiful gift! The gift of the many face good!!" * irony off*

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That means you like women who are like men, and can't stand women who are inside the traditional female role.

Well not really. Asha's hyper-sexuality is inteded to make her seem more like a man, I think. I think the traditional female role, encourages them to be as useless as possible.
Sansa is a highborn lady, she has been trained by Septa Mordane and others to be courtly, to like sweet stuff, songs and dream of gallant knights.
yes, and that's why I don't like her. Or Septa Mordane.

However, look at her last chapters as Alayne Stone and you'll something else coming through entirely.

yes, she gets smarter. She started learning how to lie in CoK. But, she never should have been that stupid to begin with.
Of course, for the attentive reader, that was obvious already in ACOK, but for the less attentive reader, perhaps not. Still people who still claim she is a Disney princess by the end of AFfC probably don't watch enough Disney
any, is too much
, nor do they analyse the roles and implications of Disney princesses particularly carefully.
that's because we stopped regarding them when we were 6 years old
(FYI I am not looking forward to when my daughter want to watch that sexist crap that is Disney princess movies. Yuck.)
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The next time I am angry of the guy (not) handleing my student loan and kill him in a fit of rage this is going to be my defense strategy. "I did not kill him. I just gave him a beautiful gift! The gift of the many face good!!" * irony off*

As long as you live in Braavos, that should work. Just as self defense works in the States. And "he was a deserter from the night's watch" works in westeros.

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Then I suppose falling in love with Joffrey, lying to the king, telling Cersei about Eddard's plans, becoming her period, being kind to the women in the Red Keep, making one of the most dangerous and angry men show his gentle side, getting married to Tyrion telling him she would never want him, fleeing the city, almost getting raped by Marillion, taking care of her cousin and helping him to cross that bridge while overpowering her own fear and providing us with the valuable insight to what happens at court and at Littlefinger's is nothing?

yeah basically. Her most exceptional and impressive characteristic is a gift for empathy. Something which I place no value on. And as a consequence, because I don't care for her, I don't care what happens to her, Joffrey, marrillion, Tyrion, Meryn Trantt. I have Tyrion to tell me what happens at court. And another character could have given us insight into Littlefinger, sans lemoncakes and tummy comments.
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I have zero problem with you saying something negative about Sansa; I love a good debate. I'm just saying if you don't want her to come up in conversation in this manner, don't mention her in the title of your thread. :dunno:

Though I do understand your frustrations and was sorry about contributing to the derailment of your thread, I just don't think putting "So you don't like Sansa Stark?" in the title was a good way of avoiding conversation about her. I was not trying to play "moral police" by any means. There's absolutely nothing amoral about not liking a certain character and wanting to talk about such or, in your case, not wanting to talk about such. I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just surprised you were surprised the thread ended up going in this direction.

Edit: Also, many, many apologies if my other post offended you! When I'm still on here after 1am, sometimes my posts start getting crankier.

I heard you. But people seem not to hear that they are intruding. This thread is not my property, but it is an example. I can not think of kinder comparisions than moral police. Or very persistent Jehovah's witnesses who fallow you around with same slogans, knock on your door when they see any movement in the house. It's stalking. The same people with same repeated sentences swoop in on any thread that hints at Sansa. This thread hints at Sansa only to point to the opposite direction. But that does not matter, I see. It is like some mindless mashine repeating the same routine works here. It simply sucks. The life out.

Here every poster even vaguely attempting to bash Sansa was asked not to do it and moved on. A sensible thing to do.

Mumbaiwalla!

It is a failed business proposition.

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I didn't realize that compassion was such a bad quality to have.

It can be. It cost Ned his head. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but there's nothing inherently impressive or interesting about it. In fact its inherently uninteresting
Who knew that people don't want to be treated kindly and with compassion?
people want all sorts of thing, what does that have to do with anything
I sure didn't. Sansa, as a character, is meant to be a direct mirror to Arya - there's a pair of lovely sequences in A Game of Thrones where GRRM illustrates this nicely. In Arya's first chapter, it's brought up several times that she's resentful of her sister - because Sansa does everything so perfectly, she has her mother's coloration and features and not the long "horseface" that the Starks have. It's never stated explicitly, but Arya wants to be Sansa, she just can't admit that.
No. Arya wants the praise and recognition of her parents, which Sansa garners by becoming proficient in all things useless. That first Sansa chapter reveals Sansa for exactly what she is, she treats her own siblings as though they're beneath her. Jon for being a bastard and Arya for her horse face.
She wants to look pretty and be praised,
no she wants to be praised and she see's being pretty as the only avenue available to her
but she's not
but she is as Ned and the Kindly man note. She's the image of Lyanna Stark
and she deals with that by being as different from Sansa as possible.
or maybe she just doesn't want to be a silly little fool. Do you really think if Arya had bee born first she would be any different?
And then, in Sansa's first chapter, there's a scene where Arya tells Sansa about all the wonderful things she does with Mycah: riding around all day, exploring the area around the Trident, and looking at the scenary. Sansa rejects this as being unladylike, as she's been brought up to, and disdains it even more because it's Arya and Arya ruins everything.for her. And then, later, when Joffrey offers to be her escort for the day, they do all of those things: go riding, enjoy the scenary, find flowers, and Sansa loves it.
I don't call it hypocrisy because she doesn't enjoy it, she just lies tells Joff that she does. A foreshadowing that she's willing to betray who she is in order to win the Crown Prince's favor. She wanted to spend the day eating lemon cakes and sitting on cushions
You can all this hypocrisy, if you really want to, but more than that, that's GRRM's way of telling us that these sisters aren't really all that different, they just act in opposite ways.

And their whole arcs continue to be mirrors: Sansa deals with the danger inside the court and Arya deals with it outside court. Arya learns how to cut down her enemies with a blade, while being a faceless, nameless entity; Sansa is learning how to cut down her enemies using politics, while being out in the open for all to see. And, unfortunately, Sansa doesn't get any magical, mystical powers; she learns how to use words and how to act. It's a long process. Much like how Arya is still only at the beginning of her training, so is Sansa.

I hardly think Sansa is a bad character. I enjoy seeing her grow up, watching as she comes to the realization that life really isn't a song, and the strength she starts to develop to cope with that. Is it the kind of hack and slash stuff Arya does? No, definitely not. But then, I enjoy the series for both the court intrigue and the more action oriented sequences. I hardly think her compassion is a bad thing. It's like Jon Snow says in AGOT, the realm needs all kinds of people - you need knights and assassins, yeah, but you also need people like Sansa who do care. And part of her arc, I think, is learning how to be a compassionate person and still live and survive. And when all is said and done, the realm needs people like her to help it heal.

I wouldn't say she's a bad character. As far as I know she's a perfect representation of an 11 year old girl. But that doesn't mean I want read about her, anymore than I want to seek and engage in discourse with an 11 year old girl. Again, there's nothing wrong with her compassion in and of itself. But I don't consider it to be any great attribute. Were she to have any other redeeming qualities, it would be irrelevant. But that's all she is. The realm might need them, but I don't need to read about them. And see, there's the rub, I don't care whether the realm heals or not.

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I like Sansa and Arya both (I must be a freak of nature).

You are not. I like them both, too. I hate this notion "If you like Sansa, then you surely do not like Arya" and the other way around.

It can be. It cost Ned his head. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but there's nothing inherently impressive or interesting about it. In fact its inherently uninteresting

I am sorry you think so. Most people think it a good virtue to be able to feel empathy with others.

I wouldn't say she's a bad character. As far as I know she's a perfect representation of an 11 year old girl. But that doesn't mean I want read about her, anymore than I want to seek and engage in discourse with an 11 year old girl. Again, there's nothing wrong with her compassion in and of itself. But I don't consider it to be any great attribute. Were she to have any other redeeming qualities, it would be irrelevant. But that's all she is. The realm might need them, but I don't need to read about them. And see, there's the rub, I don't care whether the realm heals or not.

Why would she need redeeming qualities? Why would she need to redeem for anything when she has done completely nothing wrong?

And if you do not care about the realm, and nor about the development of characters, what do you care about in those books? That is what they are about, you know.

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You are not. I like them both, too. I hate this notion "If you like Sansa, then you surely do not like Arya" and the other way around.

I am sorry you think so. Most people think it a good virtue to be able to feel empathy with others.

A good virtue in a boss maybe, or a spouse. But all sorts of assholes are do very interesting things. Does Steve Jobs being an asshole make him any less compelling a figure? No.

Why would she need redeeming qualities? Why would she need to redeem for anything when she has done completely nothing wrong?

because she's a waste of space. She's in a books i'm reading and I demand she justify her existence. were she a real 11 year old girl. i wouldn't know she existed, so she could be as vapid and useless as she pleases.

And if you do not care about the realm, and nor about the development of characters, what do you care about in those books? That is what they are about, you know.

I do care about the development of characters. Just not the development of Sansa. I care about who sits iron throne and how they manage to do it. I don't care if all of the Inns and Holdfasts get rebuilt. If the riverland's fields lay fallow or are planted except to the extent that it impacts on the ability of the noble's to play the game of thrones.
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That means you like women who are like men, and can't stand women who are inside the traditional female role. Sansa is a highborn lady, she has been trained by Septa Mordane and others to be courtly, to like sweet stuff, songs and dream of gallant knights.

OK, I actually quite like Sansa (particularly in the later books, not so much in AGoT), and I know that she provokes strong reactions both positive and negative. But I do get a little tired of reading posts defending Sansa, who state on the one hand that "women should be able to have whatever ambitions they want -including wanting marriage/ a family, and being a less active and more compassionate character- without being looked down upon" (which is a statement I thoroughly agree with, in itself), before following it up by saying that characters like Arya, Brienne, Asha, Lyanna (seriously?!) are "like men", or "only female in name", etc.

Soo... women can choose whatever role they like, but they're only a proper female if they choose femininity? Women and girls who choose to be more martial, or more aggressive/ tomboyish are "like men", or "women in name only", or similar? WHY? If women who choose to be "feminine" should not be overlooked, neither should these other characters. They are all females. They all have similar female counterparts in real life. Believe it or not, there are women who are aggressive, girls who prefer sports to pretty dresses, etc. Does this mean they aren't women- or are somehow less of a woman. In Westeros, sure, some people might see it that way, but I like to think we live in a time and place where women can actually have a choice in what roles they wish to pursue in life.

Also, as for the women above being like men? How? Dacey Mormont, who, I seem to recall the text saying, likes to dance and looks as graceful in a dress as in armour? Brienne, who seems quite kind and compassionate herself, often mentioned round here as feminine traits? Lyanna- do I even need to elaborate on her??

Now, if someone's personal preference means they prefer girly girls, or tomboys, or full on warriors like Brienne, that's fine, each to their own. But this has been peeving me for a while now.

Rant over.

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I wouldn't say she's a bad character. As far as I know she's a perfect representation of an 11 year old girl. But that doesn't mean I want read about her, anymore than I want to seek and engage in discourse with an 11 year old girl. Again, there's nothing wrong with her compassion in and of itself. But I don't consider it to be any great attribute. Were she to have any other redeeming qualities, it would be irrelevant. But that's all she is. The realm might need them, but I don't need to read about them. And see, there's the rub, I don't care whether the realm heals or not.

Well, there's your solution right there: don't read the chapters.

Or, perhaps to further save you the pain: don't read the books.

Problem solved forever more.

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Soo... women can choose whatever role they like, but they're only a proper female if they choose femininity? Women and girls who choose to be more martial, or more aggressive/ tomboyish are "like men", or "women in name only", or similar? WHY? If women who choose to be "feminine" should not be overlooked, neither should these other characters. They are all females. They all have similar female counterparts in real life. Believe it or not, there are women who are aggressive, girls who prefer sports to pretty dresses, etc. Does this mean they aren't women- or are somehow less of a woman. In Westeros, sure, some people might see it that way, but I like to think we live in a time and place where women can actually have a choice in what roles they wish to pursue in life.

Did I say that?

No, I did not.

Sansa is an example of a woman who is not a tomboy. It doesn't mean she is worth more, or better. It means she is different. It means she (at least initially before being "toughened up") will have a different outlook on life.

As you can see right in this thread, people don't care for her exactly because she is NOT a tomboy. She does not break the mould of the traditional feminine role, or at least not enough, and that is why she is hated. Personally I like *all* the female characters in the series, even Cersei (and all the males ones, too) as they are all different and bring different perspectives and viewpoints. I like that they represent a wide spectrum of roles, opinions and backgrounds.

In other words: you largely agree with me and should aim your rightful wrath at someone like Lord Littlefinger's Lash, who thinks Sansa is pointless since she is a typical female 11 year old who reminds him of, I believe it was, "a Disney princess". He can't appreciate her character for that very reason.

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Well, there's your solution right there: don't read the chapters.

Or, perhaps to further save you the pain: don't read the books.

Problem solved forever more.

I didn't read her chapters the first few times through the books. I didn't read the Bran chapters either. That's why I said I almost missed out on the awesomeness of littlefinger because of her. Nah. I shouldn't even say I don't need to read about her. The books do need idiots like Sansa and Ned so we have something to compare Lady Olena, Roose and Petyr too.

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OK, I actually quite like Sansa (particularly in the later books, not so much in AGoT), and I know that she provokes strong reactions both positive and negative. But I do get a little tired of reading posts defending Sansa, who state on the one hand that "women should be able to have whatever ambitions they want -including wanting marriage/ a family, and being a less active and more compassionate character- without being looked down upon" (which is a statement I thoroughly agree with, in itself), before following it up by saying that characters like Arya, Brienne, Asha, Lyanna (seriously?!) are "like men", or "only female in name", etc.

Soo... women can choose whatever role they like, but they're only a proper female if they choose femininity? Women and girls who choose to be more martial, or more aggressive/ tomboyish are "like men", or "women in name only", or similar? WHY? If women who choose to be "feminine" should not be overlooked, neither should these other characters. They are all females. They all have similar female counterparts in real life. Believe it or not, there are women who are aggressive, girls who prefer sports to pretty dresses, etc. Does this mean they aren't women- or are somehow less of a woman. In Westeros, sure, some people might see it that way, but I like to think we live in a time and place where women can actually have a choice in what roles they wish to pursue in life.

Also, as for the women above being like men? How? Dacey Mormont, who, I seem to recall the text saying, likes to dance and looks as graceful in a dress as in armour? Brienne, who seems quite kind and compassionate herself, often mentioned round here as feminine traits? Lyanna- do I even need to elaborate on her??

Now, if someone's personal preference means they prefer girly girls, or tomboys, or full on warriors like Brienne, that's fine, each to their own. But this has been peeving me for a while now.

Rant over.

:agree: sooo very much! This is the post of wisdom for me today!

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Did I say that?

No, I did not.

Sansa is an example of a woman who is not a tomboy. It doesn't mean she is worth more, or better. It means she is different. It means she (at least initially before being "toughened up") will have a different outlook on life.

As you can see right in this thread, people don't care for her exactly because she is NOT a tomboy. She does not break the mould of the traditional feminine role, or at least not enough, and that is why she is hated. Personally I like *all* the female characters in the series, even Cersei (and all the males ones, too) as they are all different and bring different perspectives and viewpoints. I like that they represent a wide spectrum of roles, opinions and backgrounds.

In other words: you largely agree with me and should aim your rightful wrath at someone like Lord Littlefinger's Lash, who thinks Sansa is pointless since she is a typical female 11 year old who reminds him of, I believe it was, "a Disney princess". He can't appreciate her character for that very reason.

Is it that I don't appreciate her character? I think I appreciate her. (ap·pre·ci·ate a: to grasp the nature, worth, quality, or significance of.) I do not like her. I would not like any male or female character who behaved in the manner she does. I don't think there's anything intrinsically feminine about Sansa's preening and vapid self delusion. Theon is does much the same thing. But at least he tries to do something. Sansa could be as pretty and "feminine" as she wants but why can't she be like Tyene Sand?

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Is it that I don't appreciate her character? I think I appreciate her. (ap·pre·ci·ate a: to grasp the nature, worth, quality, or significance of.) I do not like her. I would not like any male or female character who behaved in the manner she does. I don't think there's anything intrinsically feminine about Sansa's preening and vapid self delusion. Theon is does much the same thing. But at least he tries to do something. Sansa could be as pretty and "feminine" as she wants but why can't she be like Tyene Sand?

Because Tyene Sand is an one-dimensional plot device without POV chapters. Sansa is a well developed, realistic character that is changing throughout the books. If you had a little patience and read her chapters slowly and carefully, you would see, it, because her development is one of the most apparent in the books.

The books need "the idiots" like Sansa and Ned to tell the story, because neither Olenna, nor Bolton, nor Petyr have their own chapters.

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