A thread for not wise and not beautiful. So you do not like Sansa Stark?

[Lyanna Stark]

Is it that I don't appreciate her character? I think I appreciate her. (ap·pre·ci·ate a: to grasp the nature, worth, quality, or significance of.) I do not like her. I would not like any male or female character who behaved in the manner she does. I don't think there's anything intrinsically feminine about Sansa's preening and vapid self delusion. Theon is does much the same thing. But at least he tries to do something. Sansa could be as pretty and "feminine" as she wants but why can't she be like Tyene Sand?

I'm sorry you can't appreciate GRRM's writing.

btw

Appreciate

verb (used with object)

to value or regard highly; place a high estimate on: toappreciate good wine.

to be fully conscious of; be aware of; detect: to appreciatethe dangers of a situation.

to raise in value.)

Try adding the whole description next time if you want to support your post by adding dictionary quotations. Or is it because I am not a native speaker you feel the need to explain to me what "appreciate" means? That would be condescending in the extreme.

[Balefont]

Is it that I don't appreciate her character? I think I appreciate her. (ap·pre·ci·ate a: to grasp the nature, worth, quality, or significance of.) I do not like her. I would not like any male or female character who behaved in the manner she does. I don't think there's anything intrinsically feminine about Sansa's preening and vapid self delusion. Theon is does much the same thing. But at least he tries to do something. Sansa could be as pretty and "feminine" as she wants but why can't she be like Tyene Sand?

In relation to Theon: He is a male and she is a female and in Westeros the impact of being a male vs. being a female cannot be emphasized enough.

In relation to Tyene: Because she was raised in a completely different manner, in a completely different House, in a completely different geographical location with completely different weather and customs and parents, and is fucking noble born to boot.

Sheesh

[Little Miss Sunshine]

Answering to A Free Shadow's OP (because only now I found this thread):

I do like Sansa, in a way because I can relate to her (with all the due differences, of course). Her naivety, her pinky, romantic worldview, that longing for the perfect knight in a shinning armour were all traits I had when I was younger. Eventually you learn that life is not a song indeed, and that's what's been happening to her ever since her father's head was chopped off.

That being said, I also like Catelyn, and probably my favorite character so far - Davos. I simply adore Davos and I'm always eager to read his POV chapters. The scene when he reads the letter to Stannis on his knees... shivers through my spine everytime I read that!

EDIT - spelling (as usual)

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Because Tyene Sand is an one-dimensional plot device without POV chapters. Sansa is a well developed, realistic character that is changing throughout the books. If you had a little patience and read her chapters slowly and carefully, you would see, it, because her development is one of the most apparent in the books.

The books need "the idiots" like Sansa and Ned to tell the story, because neither Olenna, nor Bolton, nor Petyr have their own chapters.

because they know too much. Teyene Sand is just an example. She could still be all that she is and actually do something.

[Balefont]

because they know too much. Teyene Sand is just an example. She could still be all that she is and actually do something.

Such as?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

In relation to Theon: He is a male and she is a female and in Westeros the impact of being a male vs. being a female cannot be emphasized enough.

In relation to Tyene: Because she was raised in a completely different manner, in a completely different House, in a completely different geographical location with completely different weather and customs and parents, and is fucking noble born to boot.

Sheesh

but those are choices the author made. Just has he decided not to give Rickon a POV. Theon is also 19. I don't expect her sail a long ship. just do something.

[Balefont]

but those are choices the author made. Just has he decided not to give Rickon a POV. Theon is also 19. I don't expect her sail a long ship. just do something.

Such as?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I'm sorry you can't appreciate GRRM's writing.

btw

Appreciate

verb (used with object)

to value or regard highly; place a high estimate on: toappreciate good wine.

to be fully conscious of; be aware of; detect: to appreciatethe dangers of a situation.

to raise in value.)

Try adding the whole description next time if you want to support your post by adding dictionary quotations. Or is it because I am not a native speaker you feel the need to explain to me what "appreciate" means? That would be condescending in the extreme.

No. You're swedish. I'm sure your education was better than mine. Anyway, I think I can appreciate his writing with out liking her character personally.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Such as?

Push Joffrey of the battlement. When he shows her Ned's head. Sick her wolf on Joffrey when he was threatening Mycah. Push Lysa out the moon door. Try to escape kingslanding with out someone having to come roll out a red carpet. Throw a cup of wine in Cersei's face, something, anything.

[moonsblood]

Push Joffrey of the battlement. When he shows her Ned's head. Sick her wolf on Joffrey when he was threatening Mycah. Push Lysa out the moon door. Try to escape kingslanding with out someone having to come roll out a red carpet. Throw a cup of wine in Cersei's face, something, anything.

What if she kills Littlefinger?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

What if she kills Littlefinger?

I think she probably will.

[Balefont]

Push Joffrey of the battlement. When he shows her Ned's head.

Aside from this type of move being completely out of line with her life and actions leading up to this point,

Assume she succeeded - she'd be tried for murdering the king and hanged and then what?

What if she didn't succeed? She'd be tried for attempted murder of the the king and hanged and then what?

The Lannisters would still be in power and her House would be in an even worse position. The odds weren't good that any true good could have come from such a rash act. She was smart for not letting her emotions overwhelm her sense, imo.

Sick her wolf on Joffrey when he was threatening Mycah.

Again, same as above to some degree and at that point Joff had never done anything wrong, to the best of her knowledge, that could warrant such a call to action on Sansa's part. Coupled with her being raised as a lady and taught to respect nobles above her, her personal morals put her on the side of trusting Joff to be more in the right simply because he was the prince and to be obeyed as such.

Push Lysa out the moon door.

Pray tell when she had an opportunity to wrestle her heavy set aunt out the moon door without being at a greater risk to her own demise. And again, if she failed? If she succeeded? Surely even you can see there would be little to be gained for any of the "good guys" by such an action by Sansa.

Try to escape kingslanding with out someone having to come roll out a red carpet.

How with her being watched night and day? And what would she do if she did escape? Where would she go? How would she survive the travel to her destination? She has no money. No hunting skills.

Throw a cup of wine in Cersei's face, something, anything.

And this would do what for Sansa but make things exceedingly worse for her including possible whipping for such an affront to the queen?

[brashcandy]

Push Joffrey of the battlement. When he shows her Ned's head. Sick her wolf on Joffrey when he was threatening Mycah. Push Lysa out the moon door. Try to escape kingslanding with out someone having to come roll out a red carpet. Throw a cup of wine in Cersei's face, something, anything.

I don't know why I'm even going to bother to type this because talking to you about Sansa is like talking to a caveman about electricity: they just won't get it. Nevertheless, your textual inaccuracies need to be corrected. Your attitude however is all on you.

Sansa was very likely going to push Joffrey, until the Hound intervened. Had she done it, her head would have been on a spike next to her father's. She couldn't sick Lady on Joff because she had left her tied up at the camp. She also didn't wait on anyone to roll out a red carpet for her but actually wanted to leave during the Blackwater battle, and then was relying on the Tyrell plot to marry Willas. Throwing wine in Cersei's face would have just been dumb as hell. If you'd actually think for a minute before spewing hatred, you'd realise that her leaving KL as a young girl with no help would have gotten her as far as about the Mud gate. Even Arya would not be alive today had it not been for Yoren.

[Mumatil]

Hot Pie, just some kid trying to survive and making tarts on the way.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Aside from this type of move being completely out of line with her life and actions leading up to this point,

Assume she succeeded - she'd be tried for murdering the king and hanged and then what?

maybe. or maybe Sandor would just say he fell

What if she didn't succeed? She'd be tried for attempted murder of the the king and hanged and then what?

then she'd be dead

The Lannisters would still be in power and her House would be in an even worse position. The odds weren't good that any true good could have come from such a rash act. She was smart for not letting her emotions overwhelm her sense, imo.

Yeah. she's just so submissive. its unbearable.

Again, same as above to some degree and at that point Joff had never done anything wrong, to the best of her knowledge, that could warrant such a call to action on Sansa's part. Coupled with her being raised as a lady and taught to respect nobles above her, her personal morals put her on the side of trusting Joff to be more in the right simply because he was the prince and to be obeyed as such.

i didn't see its her fault she's such an idiot. she is Ned's daughter after all. but that doesn't mean i want read her POV's

Pray tell when she had an opportunity to wrestle her heavy set aunt out the moon door without being at a greater risk to her own demise. And again, if she failed? If she succeeded? Surely even you can see there would be little to be gained for any of the "good guys" by such an action by Sansa.

which ones are the good guys? It wouldn't have been very hard for her to push Lysa out, its just a matter of catching Lysa unaware. She could have done it when littlefinger first interrupted her and Lysa.

How with her being watched night and day? And what would she do if she did escape? Where would she go? How would she survive the travel to her destination? She has no money. No hunting skills.

but she's not watched that closely. She makes it to the God's wood just fine.

And this would do what for Sansa but make things exceedingly worse for her including possible whipping for such an affront to the queen?

they're already beating her in the throne room.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I don't know why I'm even going to bother to type this because talking to you about Sansa is like talking to a caveman about electricity: they just won't get it. Nevertheless, your textual inaccuracies need to be corrected. Your attitude however is all on you.

Sansa was very likely going to push Joffrey, until the Hound intervened. Had she done it, her head would have been on a spike next to her father's. She couldn't sick Lady on Joff because she had left her tied up at the camp.

you say this as if someone didn't make this book up. having lady left behind and nymeria with Arya was a choice. Having Sansa hesitate before Joff was pushed was a choice

She also didn't wait on anyone to roll out a red carpet for her but actually wanted to leave during the Blackwater battle

she did? i could have sworn the hound offered to take her out of kingslanding during that battle and she didn't go.

, and then was relying on the Tyrell plot to marry Willas.

that's what I mean by red carpet

Throwing wine in Cersei's face would have just been dumb as hell. If you'd actually think for a minute before spewing hatred. I've said much worse about people who are real that I actually like.

i'm hardly spewing hatred. i'm just explaining why i don't like her as a character. and its not because she's a bastard or has a horse face.

you'd realise that her leaving KL as a young girl with no help would have gotten her as far as about the Mud gate. Even Arya would not be alive today had it not been for Yoren.

well that doesn't quite make sense. Arya was able to leave the city. She went out through the sewer. She also went down to the docks, which must necessarily be outside of the city walls. Besides which she escaped from Harrenhal, completely on her own. And besides that Arya was going to rush the stage and stab Joffrey when Yoren grabbed her, she was still doing something.

Yeah that's it. Basically Sansa is a female Hot Pie. As comic relief and a non-POV character that would be fine. But I really don't enjoy being inside her head.

[Balefont]

I should listen to brashcandy.

< sigh >

maybe. or maybe Sandor would just say he fell

And get heat for not properly protecting the king?

then she'd be dead

flippant. nice.

Yeah. she's just so submissive. its unbearable.

Just doing what she was taught.

i didn't see its her fault she's such an idiot. she is Ned's daughter after all. but that doesn't mean i want read her POV's

I don't enjoy everyone's PoV's but it doesn't make them less important to the story.

which ones are the good guys?

The ones you seem to think would benefit from Sansa's self sacrifice.

It wouldn't have been very hard for her to push Lysa out, its just a matter of catching Lysa unaware.

Unaware while the moon door is open?! You seriously think such a thing is possible with the exception of when her lover, Petyr, whom she trusts is there?

She could have done it when littlefinger first interrupted her and Lysa

Before she knew she could trust Petyr to not betray her for Lysa's murder?

. but she's not watched that closely. She makes it to the God's wood just fine. they're already beating her in the throne room.

The Godswood is within the keep.

[Buckwheat]

maybe. or maybe Sandor would just say he fell

Sandor had to protect the king. He would not alllow him to be pushed from the wall.

Yeah. she's just so submissive. its unbearable.

Maybe it is unbearable for you, many other people find it ineteresting to read about.

And she has to be submissive if she wants to stay alive. She could do nothing else lest she gets killed. Thus, she could do nothing more than refusing to kneel to Tyrion, which was one of the best acts in the series.

i didn't see its her fault she's such an idiot. she is Ned's daughter after all. but that doesn't mean i want read her POV's

Nobody says you have to want to read them, just stop whining about their uselessness.

It wouldn't have been very hard for her to push Lysa out, its just a matter of catching Lysa unaware. She could have done it when littlefinger first interrupted her and Lysa. but she's not watched that closely.

She was too scared. And Lysa was too heavy for her to push anywhere. And Sansa is no murderer.

She makes it to the God's wood just fine.

That is because she is allowed to go there. She is not allowed to leave the castle.

[Winter's Knight]

Sandor was not the only KG present when Sansa tried to push Joff after he showed her Ned's head-there was also the one who hit her-so Sandor's lying would've been useless.

[Balefont]

Sandor was not the only KG present when Sansa tried to push Joff after he showed her Ned's head-there was also the one who hit her-so Sandor's lying would've been useless.

That's what I was thinking but I haven't read Game in a few years.