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A thread for not wise and not beautiful. So you do not like Sansa Stark?


a free shadow

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This in a world which is being ripped apart by armed conflct. She just seems a bit out of place in a story of heroic fantasy.

Actually Sansa and Arya are being raised during a time of peace in a relatively secluded part of the realm.

I'd also argue that this series is not really heroic fantasy. (Which is what makes it unique and why so many people who read more traditional fantasy were / are blown away by it.)

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...I'd also argue that this series is not really heroic fantasy...

Yeah there is the slight shortage of heroes for one thing. Brienne is heroic I suppose, once you exclude the oath breakers, woman beaters, bullies, slave traders, criminals and brutes there doesn't seem to be many others left, Beric maybe.

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Yeah there is the slight shortage of heroes for one thing. Brienne is heroic I suppose, once you exclude the oath breakers, woman beaters, bullies, slave traders, criminals and brutes there doesn't seem to be many others left, Beric maybe.

Loras? /grasping at straws

What about Jon?

Brienne is the only "true knight" we've seen so far.

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Jon? what that little oathbreaker!

Seriously the contenders for the title of hero all are compromised in some way or another, but Brienne I think is the best. Sansa has the potential to become heroic, if she ends up protecting that miserable milk drinking little cousin of hers.

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Jon? what that little oathbreaker!

Seriously the contenders for the title of hero all are compromised in some way or another, but Brienne I think is the best. Sansa has the potential to become heroic, if she ends up protecting that miserable milk drinking little cousin of hers.

What? Sweetrobin apologist are you? I knew you were not to be trusted. :P

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Jon? what that little oathbreaker!

Seriously the contenders for the title of hero all are compromised in some way or another, but Brienne I think is the best. Sansa has the potential to become heroic, if she ends up protecting that miserable milk drinking little cousin of hers.

:o

He was obeying orders sir! Lesser men are held to be heroes after graver faults-Sir Lancelot for example.

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Arya in the following books thinks about Sansa more than anyone, even more than Jon. Everyone wants to act as if it's sibling rivalry but Arya really cares for Sansa. Do we ever see Cat being kind to her daughter that is different, well it's a different setting so I understand but I feel for Arya. Think about the bethroal Cat makes for Arya, and I know Arya is the last in a long line but Arya comes from one of the most powerful houses and deserves a much better option! Look at Lysa's marriage and she was in Arya's position, it was even during war. I love both the girls so much, with my personal understanding aiding me, but I wish some would try to understand Arya a little better. I think Arya would have done anything to be good at the things Cat and Sansa wanted her to do. I don't think Arya being good at 'boy things' was a conscious choice, Arya was just naturally good at boy things over girl things. Should we judge her harshly for that?

You made some very good points in the rest of your post, but I have to comment on this and defend Cat a bit. Sure, we never see Cat being kind to Arya, but then they don't have a single scene of them together "onscreen", not even a flashback. BTW, I really think Martin should've given us a chapter or two more of Stark family interactions before most of the left Winterfell, but that's for another topic.

Anyway, I don't think the marriage she brokered for Arya was bad given the circumstances. Elmar at least was Arya's age, and while not a heir or from the Lord Paramount families, his faily is still pretty powerful, rich and influential. How is Lysa's marriage better? Sure, politically it was a great scoop, but Jon was really old. Elmar is Arya's age.

Besides, it was a very different situation anyway. Lord Frey had the Starks over a barrel and could basically name his price. On the other hand, it was Hoster Tully who was in the strong position when negotiating Lysa's marriage because Jon Arryn desperately needed the support of the Riverlands in the rebellion.

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@David Selig

I can agree with you,but want to remind you that Arya remembers her mother very fondly and I think Catelyn was quite strict in raising all her children. Even her favorite, Bran was forbidden to climb, by her. (of course that was protective fear).

I think Martin´s problem with showing more of the Stark family life, would have been concealing the mystery of Lyanna and Jon. Allready the absence of any knowledge of Ned´s mother is conspicuous.

The marriagepact would have been resented by Arya, I think. Even though you´re right it was very reasonable given the circumstances. And it led to Arya´s funny line, "I hope she dies, your princess".

Edit for corrections

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This is one of the great things about Sansa - she's a reader proxy. The reader like Sansa comes from a world where good looking people are good while bad looking and smelly are evil. Life runs along fixed lines - the handsome prince marries the beautiful princess and everybody lives happily ever after. Noble Northmen are good and true, knights are valiant, courteous and chivalrous, women are gentle and kind.

GRRM then throws that in the pot together with real politics and real political ambitions and you get fantastic disenchantment, shock and powerlessness.

I really have to disagree with this. Readers do not come from this kind of world at all, and even if this were the case Martin undermines Sansa's perspective before we even get a POV from her, showing us that the Lannisters can't be trusted, that something is seriously wrong with Joffrey and that Jon and Arya are much more perceptive. I've always felt that Arya is set up as the one people are supposed to identify and relate to. The misfit girl who realises the value of the common man and doesn't want to conform to societal expectations. That's much more in keeping with the perspective of modern readers who have been taught to scrutinize and be wary of such classic tropes that Sansa believes in.

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Loras? /grasping at straws

What about Jon?

Brienne is the only "true knight" we've seen so far.

I am not going to mention 100% pure characters and heroic might be pushing it for them but here are my mentions

Brienne, Ned, Jon, Septon Meribald

Davos also sort of counts.

And Samwell Tarly

And Maester Aemon

Beric Dondarion

Jojen and Meera Reed

Podric Payne

Sansa hasn't done anything greatly heroic so far but she has protected the life of Dontos and that alone allows her in the list.

Early Arya perharps that is GOT and some of COK Arya though she did kill that stableboy early on. She saves the life of three criminals because she could, at her own risk. Not sure about her.

And Jeor Mormont perharps

Early Tyrion before ASOS is sort of a good guy too although perhaps one of the grayest of the list.

Also Qhorin Halfhand

Also Yoren.

Mirri Maz Duur (I consider her a hero but this is probably a very controversial choice, I think by killing the warlord Drogo and Danny's infant son that would have become a conqueror aka mass murderer she probably saved Westeros from a lot of suffering.)

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Brashcandy,

It does go against everything readers have come to expect of High Fantasy though, where the Good are Good and the Bad are Bad and also possibly Orcs. GRRM has totally smashed all the old fantasy tropes the genre has been bogged down with since forever (or at least since Tolkien) and even been an inspiration for the new, gritty vein of fantasy literature we are seeing more and more of (with authors like Abercrombie etc). It's even got a name now: grimdark.

Considering that the only fantasy author who was popular and considered "a bit dark" was Stephen Donaldson during the early/mid 90s, GRRM opened the flood gates when it comes to more realism, grit and grey characters.

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Brashcandy,

It does go against everything readers have come to expect of High Fantasy though, where the Good are Good and the Bad are Bad and also possibly Orcs. GRRM has totally smashed all the old fantasy tropes the genre has been bogged down with since forever (or at least since Tolkien) and even been an inspiration for the new, gritty vein of fantasy literature we are seeing more and more of (with authors like Abercrombie etc). It's even got a name now: grimdark.

Considering that the only fantasy author who was popular and considered "a bit dark" was Stephen Donaldson during the early/mid 90s, GRRM opened the flood gates when it comes to more realism, grit and grey characters.

Ok, I guess I can see the logic in this :)

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She is useless. Not useless as a device for delivering information in the book. She has her uses as a POV, as a person, I have no use for an 11 year old girl. Who isn't a magical ninja assasin or greenseer.

Useless?? She is the only diplomatic character of the Starks. Are you telling that diplomacy is useless? You may get bored by her (I get bored by others characters or POV), but she is not useless cause after the war will be needed a lot of diplomacy to be able to reconstruct the kingdom and to have a long peace (and not an "imaginary" peace as was Robert Baratheon reign or Cersei thru Tommen reign).

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Useless?? She is the only diplomatic character of the Starks. Are you telling that diplomacy is useless? You may get bored by her (I get bored by others characters or POV), but she is not useless cause after the war will be needed a lot of diplomacy to be able to reconstruct the kingdom and to have a long peace (and not an "imaginary" peace as was Robert Baratheon reign or Cersei thru Tommen reign).

But she's not diplomatic. She's courteous. Diplomacy requires an understanding of geopolitical power. Tommen is courteous. Catelyn is diplomatic, as we can see from the Frey alliance. Jon is diplomatic, as we can see from his ability to convince Stannis to leave the wildings behind in exchange for a plan to march on Deepwood.

I don't think there was anything imaginary about the peace during Robert's reign.

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So Sansa as an 11 year old girl should have fought the Hound, a 7 foot guy in armour and with a sword, plus another kingsguard, and pushed Joffrey off the battlements?

Yes she's a little girl, we've established that. So is Arya.

How would she do that? Her wolf was not with her at the time.

She would have had to have her wolf with her. Fortunately, since this is not a history though. Martin could simply write it that way. based on the character she is and the way that character was raised, Sansa behaves in a realistic fashion. There's not flaw in the character as she was written. But she could have been a different character. There's no need of an ordinary 11 year old girl POV character. There's no need of an ordinary 11 year old boy POV character

Lysa is described as being far stronger and bigger than Sansa in this chapter. Sansa does fight back, but if it had not been for outside intervention, Sansa would have taken a trip out the Moon Door. Again, 12 year old girl (she is older at this stage) cannot fight off a bigger person easily, but she does try.

yeah I mean after the outside intervention. When Petyr interrupted Lysa, Sansa could have pushed her out then.

How is she supposed to do that? Steal a horse, ride past all the guards supposed to make her stay put? That would be unrealistic in the extreme.

I'd be happy with her trying and failing. She could try to climb over wall from the God's wood.

Throwing a cup of wine at Cersei would have accomplished what, exactly? Apart from another beating?

It would accomplish the verification that she has a spine. If you're going to be beaten into submission, at least make them do the beating.

Precisely. That is almost the entire point of Sansa's story arc. To display the dichotonomy between the idea of courtly love, gallant knights, songs etc and the reality of medieval power struggles and warfare. Which Sansa and the readers are learning to our peril.

Yes but we as readers are already familiar with fairy tales. We don't need the juxtaposition of Sansa to demonstrate that those stories are unrealistic, we have the entire series to do that.
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I don't think there was anything imaginary about the peace during Robert's reign.

Is that why Westeros went up like a tinder box as soon as Robert was gone?

ETA: I'm not going to debate Sansa with you anymore which is why I'm not addressing the first part of your post. :)

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Yes she's a little girl, we've established that. So is Arya. She would have had to have her wolf with her.

So, Arya could have wrestled the Hound, tossed Joffrey down, attacked him with her at the time non existent wolf, drowned Cersei in wine and scaled the walls of King's Landing?

How about no?

Just face it, you can't appreciate Sansa's character since she is a 12 year old girl and not a greenseer ninja. Other people can see a lot of quality in them, because they can appreciate other types of characters which your posts indicate that you cannot.

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So, Arya could have wrestled the Hound, tossed Joffrey down, attacked him with her at the time non existent wolf, drowned Cersei in wine and scaled the walls of King's Landing?

No. She would have just pushed Joffrey. The same way she would have rushed the stage and stabbed him but for Yoren. Areys Oakheart charged headlong into Areo Hotah's long axe, he was a fool. But at least that was interesting.

How about no?

Just face it, you can't appreciate Sansa's character since she is a 12 year old girl and not a greenseer ninja. Other people can see a lot of quality in them, because they can appreciate other types of characters which your posts indicate that you cannot.

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. You have been reading my posts.
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Is that why Westeros went up like a tinder box as soon as Robert was gone?

No, that's how you can tell it was peace. There was tender in the box.

ETA: I'm not going to debate Sansa with you anymore which is why I'm not addressing the first part of your post. :)

I don't know what "ETA" means.

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