Rhaegar held Lyanna against her will

[Lady Octarina]

Re: Lyanna's pleas to Ned

Lyanna pleads with Ned, but that doesn't mean she thinks Ned would harm the child. She's pleading with him to protect the child from Robert, who is out to kill every Targaryen. To hide the baby, she wants Ned to sacrifice his public honor and pretend Jon is his own bastard, something Ned would have been extremely unwilling to do; if he did so, it was only because he loved his sister and could not deny her deathbed wishes. To Ned Stark, prickly about his honor, it would have been torture to pretend to have an adulterous affair, to hurt his new wife's feelings, to endure being thought of as a man who indulged in extramarital sex. He sacrifices not his actual honor, but the public perception of his honor (including his family's perception) in order to keep his promise to Lyanna and cloak her offspring as his own. The pain Stark would have felt about pretending to be the father of a bastard would more than account for his unwillingness to discuss anything about it, ever.

It's actually a pretty funny situation-- a man as humorless as Ned having to PRETEND to be a hypocrite! As opposed to his later choice, to sacrifice his actual honor for the sake of Sansa's life, which isn't funny at all, but agonzing and tragic-- he pretends publicly to be a traitor, and pretends to believe Joffrey legitimate, because he cannot buy his own honor at the cost of his child's head. No wonder he looked almost relieved to face the block; every moment of his life henceforth would have been a torment.

I said this in another thread (R+L=J, v.22, I think): it seems to me that what Lyanna asked of Ned wasn't that he kept Jon protected and hidden as his own son, but something more significant - probably that he fought to put Jon on the throne, as was his right. What other reason could Ned have to torture himself thinking about broken promises on his last chapter? If his sister simply wanted him to protect his son, well... he broke no promises there.

But I completely agree with the rest of your post. It actually seems tragic to me that Ned was faced with choosing between love and honor twice, both with unfortunate results: the first time he ended up posing as a hypocrite for "fathering a bastard", the second, the little tyrant had his head anyway and his House was broken. Which is why Aemon's speech to Jon in AGoT always brings tears to my eyes :crying:

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I have no trouble with the idea that Lyanna consented to run away with Rhaegar. Even the most pragmatic, sensible girls often do very foolish things for their first significant love. How many times have we all heard about a teenage girl with everything going for her - smart, pretty, popular, good grades, great family - who threw it all away when she found herself pregnant at the ripe old age of 15 or 16 ...and quite often, the guy who knocked her up turns out to have been a very bad choice in one or many ways. I knew a few in high school; my daughter knew a few at hers ...smart and strong teen girls are unfortunately just as likely to goof their lives up for love as the girls from the wrong side of the tracks who have daddy issues.

Having said that, I also imagine that by the time she'd been there a couple of months, the ToJ probably FELT like a prison to Lyanna, even if there were no guards at the doors to prevent her from leaving. I remember one of the cheerleader/honor student girls at my high school (who ended up pregnant) having to drop out and move into a seedy one bedroom apartment with the guy she loved SO MUCH. Her parents were willing to support her in having the baby, and she could have finished school, but their condition was that she give up the guy. She clung to her love even as their "romance" fell to pieces around her, but pride and refusal to let her parents know they had been right made her stick to her guns, even though she was miserable.

It may seem like a ludicrous comparison, but I can easily see Lyanna being appalled at seeing this remote, unpopulated Tower that she would be expected to live/hide in for the foreseeable future. Her dreams, when she fell in love with the Crown Prince, probably did not involve being stashed away at the corner of the world. But by then, she had made her bed. There could have been lots of things that motivated her to stay there, despite being unhappy with the situation. Pride, fear of what her family would do/think/say if she went back home with her belly full of Targaryen bastard, the logistics of traveling for a couple of months while pregnant, a sense of hope that somehow Rhaegar was actually going to manage to carve out a future for them somehow if she was just patient enough.

All the same, I can easily imagine both of them growing disillusioned with both the situation's hard realities, and with the waning of their impetuous and all-absorbing passion. At the ToJ they would have had only each other for company, besides perhaps the barest skeleton crew of servants. The more they got to know each other - well, who knows? Maybe they fell deeper in love with each passing day. Then again, maybe she came to feel that if he mentioned that prophecy one more time she was going to throw him off the roof, and he discovered that the defiant spirit he had admired so much was actually quite tedious when directed at him.

All of this is, of course, blatant speculation; all I am trying to say is that it's possible Lyanna went along for the ride happily at first, but came to regret her decision. And while it is hard for me to imagine Rhaegar holding her prisoner, based on what we know of his character, she may have felt just as imprisoned by circumstances.

Lastly, there has been good debate here on the similarity/dissimilarity of Arya and Lyanna. At one point (or more), the question was posed: what would be the point of making such a deliberate and repetitive comparison between the two? One reason that occurred to me is that it is possible Arya may, with a few more years' maturity, meet a "Rhaegar" of her own. I have no idea if it will be someone she reacquaints with, such as Gendry; or an entirely new character. But if part of Arya's storyline is to find romance, despite her oft-declared opinion that all such stuff is "stupid," then it may be easier for readers to swallow if there is precedent set for her to be so similar to Lyanna.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I do subscribe to this theory. I don't think that Lyanna, knowing her family, would just eloped with him and she wouldn't said a word to anyone. I just can't believe it and find it possible.

[Feralwolfchild]

I like to think that she went with him willingly at the beginning, only because she did not want to marry Robert. Then when she heard what happened to her brother and father whatever love she felt for him was gone, and the promise she made Ned swear was that Jon would never know who his father is.

[Ludd]

First too many unknowns and possibly false stories.

Firstly we do no know who kept her prisoner - was it perhaps Aerys NOT Rhaegar.

While I am quite prepared to believe she fell for Rhaegar and eloped no message does seem strange. Someone suggested that a message to Brandon may have been diverted or twisted by a vengeful LF. Quite possible given where they were located.

Anyway back to Aerys.

1. we KNOW he was scared of Rhaegar falsely and mad or not

2. We can assume that quite rationally he would be fearing the marriage of Lyanna and Robert. The alliance of the Starks with BOTH the Stormlands AND Riverlands and the strong association with the Vale was VERY dangerous for Aerys. By capturing Lyanna Aerys may have been aiming to prevent the alliance and ditto killing Brandon and Rickard.

3. The kings guard obeys the KING not Prince. I think they were at the ToJ at the demand of Aerys NOT Rhaegar

So we do not really know what happened at ToJ but can guess that

1. there was a baby

2 .We can probably guess that Lyanna did love Rhaegar- he seemed very attractive

[Dragonfish]

I do subscribe to this theory. I don't think that Lyanna, knowing her family, would just eloped with him and she wouldn't said a word to anyone. I just can't believe it and find it possible.

Ned specifically singles out her "wolf blood" as the reason for her downfall. Wouldn't an impulsive elopement with Rhaegar qualify as such?

Also, we don't know that she didn't say a word to anyone.

3. The kings guard obeys the KING not Prince. I think they were at the ToJ at the demand of Aerys NOT Rhaegar

No, the Kingsguard obey the prince as well, per George's words (though presumably orders from the prince would be superseded by orders from the king). The app also states that it was Rhaegar who ordered them to stay, though how much trust you put in the app will certainly vary.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ned specifically singles out her "wolf blood" as the reason for her downfall. Wouldn't an impulsive elopement with Rhaegar qualify as such?

Also, we don't know that she didn't say a word to anyone.

Impulsive yes maybe, I don't believe so but maybe. But even if it was an impulsive elopement I believe that she knew her family...

I think that the fact that Brandon went to KL looking for her (and Rhaegar) means that she hadn't said anything to anyone. So I come back to my belief that Rhaegar kidnaped her and hold her prisoner and that's why she didn't said anything to anyone.

[ILoveSummer]

Every description of Lyanna says she was very fierce and willful. she would have acted Spearwife's Style if she would have been forced to stay with Rhaegar.

Her fear about Jon might had been because she knew about Robert's hate for the Targaryen. Maybe she thought that even the fact that jon is her babe wouldn't stop his fury. She also knew that she would die and couldn't defend jon.

[juanml82]

Let's assume Rickard's Southron Ambitions are real and the conspiracy is on. Now, what if, after all the meetings during the Harrenhal tournament, he realizes the conspiracy is failing: either it has been discovered, maybe Robert (the new head of House Baratheon due his father's death) wants to bail out, they may not trust Tywin, or anything else. So Rickard, Hoster and Jon Arryn decide it's now or never, but they don't have a casus belli.

Enter Lyanna who, following her father's orders as well as her desire to dump Robert, seduces Rhaegar and entices him to elope, reuniting House Baratheon with the conspirators, attempting to drive a wedge between Targs and Martels and providing the casus belli?

Then Bradon, who isn't aware of this or is way too impulsive/idiot, fucks things up by turning up at King's Landing demanding Rhaegar's head?

This, of course, doesn't prevent Lyanna and Rhaegar to be really in love. Quite a bit crackpot, though.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

Theres a line where Robert is going off about still hating what Rhaegar did to Lyanna, and Ned says, "You avenged Lyanna on the Trident", and then immediately has the "promise me Ned" thought, implying she wasn't avenged at all, but Ned is lying to keep his promise.

[Le Cygne]

Theres a line where Robert is going off about still hating what Rhaegar did to Lyanna, and Ned says, "You avenged Lyanna on the Trident", and then immediately has the "promise me Ned" thought, implying she wasn't avenged at all, but Ned is lying to keep his promise.

Excellent example. And why would Selmy think "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna" if there had been unwillingness involved. That's implying love and consent (she consented to be his). And Jorah, who loves Dany, says she's like Rhaegar:

The knight gave her a curious look. "You are your brother’s sister, in truth."

"Viserys?" She did not understand.

"No," he answered. "Rhaegar."

[Quentyn the Blazed]

And Jorah, who loves Dany, says she's like Rhaegar:

Interesting that Jorah says this right after Dany flexes her Khaleesi muscles to stop the rape of Eroeh. Of course this is probably about Dany asserting power more than anything, since Jorah didnt know Rhaegar personally.

Edit: Well on second thought Viserys liked to assert power quite a bit, so Jorah must have been referencing Rhaegars kind disposition that he was known for

[Dragonfish]

Impulsive yes maybe, I don't believe so but maybe. But even if it was an impulsive elopement I believe that she knew her family...

Then what do you suppose Ned was referring to when he said her wolf blood led her to an early grave?

I think that the fact that Brandon went to KL looking for her (and Rhaegar) means that she hadn't said anything to anyone.

Faulty reasoning. Brandon was on the road when it happened, and he immediately stormed off to King's Landing when he found out about it. At what point was Lyanna's letter, if she did indeed leave it for Rickard, supposed to reach Brandon? Also, what makes you think Brandon believed she was kidnapped? His actions would be just as consistent with an overprotective older brother who thinks he knows best for his sister.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I agree with the OP, there is absolutely no evidence that she was kidnapped besides people saying it. For all we know SHE kidnapped HIM and raped him. Of course that's not likely but it goes to prove that we know nothing about what ACTUALLY happened. Ned was probably the only one who did and he died in King's Landing without ever likely having uttered a word about it. We know nothing, just like Jon Snow on this one.

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

The only person who speaks of it as abduction and rape is Robert. Even Ned thinks complimentary things of Rhaegar and that's after watching his sister die in the ToJ. I doubt she was held against her will. Even if she ran away with him willingly and then changed her mind and wanted to leave. She would have told Ned that when he saw her, surely, and explained why she'd let their father and brother die.

Like other's have said, it's highly possible Lyanna never knew what was going on in the rest of the kingdom. We don't even know for sure exactly where she and Rhaegar were for all that time. Maybe in the ToJ, maybe somewhere else.

There are lots of mysteries in the backstory so for now I'm going to just keep faith in their love for each other. My delusions, if they are delusions, will be destroyed soon enough by GRRM.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Then what do you suppose Ned was referring to when he said her wolf blood led her to an early grave?

What I believe is that he saw her and she was different from the others he had met,free spirited and willful. And she caught his eye. Like when a exotic bird caught the hunter's eye (and I know that this is an awful example).

Faulty reasoning. Brandon was on the road when it happened, and he immediately stormed off to King's Landing when he found out about it. At what point was Lyanna's letter, if she did indeed leave it for Rickard, supposed to reach Brandon? Also, what makes you think Brandon believed she was kidnapped? His actions would be just as consistent with an overprotective older brother who thinks he knows best for his sister.

And how Brandon could know what happened? Someone told him someone close to the family (in order to know a secret like that)... and that someone didn't told him that "She left with her own free will?"

[Dragonfish]

What I believe is that he saw her and she was different from the others he had met,free spirited and willful. And she caught his eye. Like when a exotic bird caught the hunter's eye (and I know that this is an awful example).

Ok, so Ned is saying that she's responsible for her own downfall because she got herself noticed? Does that honestly sound to you like something he would say?

And how Brandon could know what happened? Someone told him someone close to the family (in order to know a secret like that)...

What makes you think it was a secret?

and that someone didn't told him that "She left with her own free will?"

We don't know who told him what. Someone could've heard something through the grapevine but mangled the context. A message could've been altered by one of the maesters (there's got to be some reason why we've been told that Rickard's maester may have been untrustworthy). Or maybe Brandon did know she went willingly, and still reacted the way he did, which is a possibility you didn't address when I mentioned it before.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ok, so Ned is saying that she's responsible for her own downfall because she got herself noticed? Does that honestly sound to you like something he would say?

It is the birds fault that it is beautiful or the hunter's who couldn't keep his hands to himself?

What makes you think it was a secret?

So everyone knew that Lyanna and Rhaegar eloped?

We don't know who told him what. Someone could've heard something through the grapevine but mangled the context. A message could've been altered by one of the maesters (there's got to be some reason why we've been told that Rickard's maester may have been untrustworthy). Or maybe Brandon did know she went willingly, and still reacted the way he did, which is a possibility you didn't address when I mentioned it before.

So by saying that it wasn't a secret you mean that everyone knew that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar... Then how Brandon couldn't know that Lyanna went willingly?

*Τhe possibility Brandon knew that Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna and went to KL wanting to kill Rhaegar id funny but not possible at all in my eyes.

[Dragonfish]

It is the birds fault that it is beautiful or the hunter's who couldn't keep his hands to himself?

Uh, when it comes to rape, we usually say it's the rapist's fault, and I'd imagine that Ned would agree.

So everyone knew that Lyanna and Rhaegar eloped?

People would've known that Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna, but they wouldn't necessarily know the full context (for instance, everyone knew that Catelyn had freed Jaime, but others embellished a bit by saying it was because she was in love with him). Brandon could've received just such a context-less message.

*Τhe possibility Brandon knew that Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna and went to KL wanting to kill Rhaegar id funny but not possible at all in my eyes.

Why not? The two of them would've just broken a betrothal, and it makes sense that an overprotective brother would blame the influence of the "boyfriend" for that.

[Ser Creighton]

Does it matter? They are both dead and gone and events have already unfolded. It's a moment of stupid in the book. Lyanna hates infidelity but becomes the other woman, Rhaegar is suppose to be brilliant but pulls bone head move after bone head move. Or the amount of stupid it takes to sit in a tower for 10 months, because you are suppose to be in hiding, but the tower sits in the middle of the main pass into Dorne and anyone who wants to find them does not seem to have a problem doing it. Not to mention it's Dorne, the strength of Rhaegars influence, home of his BFF who is with him, not to far from Starfall which is his BFF's home. How the hell even got there to begin with and the reason it's taking Martin so long tell anyone about all this is because he probably can't figure out how to close all the giant ass loopholes he created.