The Winds of Winter: Victarion I ?

[Tini]

I don't know if Moqorro is playing Victarion. Moqorro is following his visions. The visions say he'll meet Victarion, he'll go an meet Victarion. He'll help Victarion as long as it is required by his visions. Once the visions discard Victarion, he'll drop him and move on.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

But he thought he had. The horn was "consacrated" to him, so no matter who sounded it, it would be in Euron's service (and the unfortunate would probably end toasted inside for the effort... all magic requires sacrifice, right?). Moquorro "de-consacrated" the horn and "re-consacrated" it to Vic (or so he says).

Now, how could our dense (and Euron seems to know exactly how "bright" his brother is) Victarion have figured and accomplished something like that on his own? It was simply impossible, UNLESS he happened to find someone like Moquorro along the way. Otherwise Euron's plan is perfect: Victarion sounds the horn, the dragons are bound to Euron and probably Victarion toasts himself. Victarion has someone else sound the horn (unlikely given Victarion's personality) the dragons end bound to Euron anyway. What's the need for another contingency plan? Euron is not overcautious Doran Martell, he's a vicious and brilliant plotter but pronte to rash acts and fits of madness. It was a very good plan, it simply failed because he could not forsee Moquorro's involvement.

As for Moquorro's motivations: I agree he is playing Victaion to a degree. He clearly knows of Euron (due to his visions) and sees for the danger he represents. He seems to have chosen Vic as a tool to defeat Euron. But it's also clear (to me at least) Moquorro wants to reach Dany and Victarion is just means to that end for him, while poor stupid Victarion thinks he can take the mother of dragons as his bride like she was just a simple woman he fell upon during a reaving...

I don't think dragons can fly all the way to Westeros (no matter how big they are). They would have to be tamed enough to board a vessel, at least for a time. If the dragons were bound to Euron, he would have to be there to control them personally.

[WildBlood]

And that twist will be Rhaegal burning Victarion. It is known.

fixed that for ya :smug: :leer:

[History of Westeros]

Thoughts on various sub-topics raised in this thread.

The notion that Euron is hidden amongst the Iron Fleet seems to be a stretch. He's conducting major war against the Reach, trying to invade Oldtown and has conquered part of the Arbor. Much of this happens after Vic is long gone. I'm doubtful he would carry out major operations like these through underlings.

On Dany and Vic. For those predicting romance there I am also very dubious. Drogo seems to be somewhat handsome, Daario quite so. Vic? Not sure but I think if he were handsome we'd have heard it. Also D & D are fairly smart, while Vic is not. Daario is also very charming (good with words). Drogo was even decent at wordplay ("moon of my life" etc) despite the language barrier. Vic, not so much.

On Vic's intelligence. GRRM says he's dumb as a stump. But it's a mistake to assume dumb people can't be good or even great at certain things. Evidence points to Vic being a very good, and perhaps a bit clever, battle leader.

As to Vic's desire to kill Euron. The though of the kinslaying curse did not stop him, Balon did. This is explicitly stated in the text via Vic's inner monologue.

As for the notion that Moqorro is not "the Black Flame", he is specifically called that by Victarion's crew, so it seems pretty straightforward.

Victarion absolutely has King's blood. Yes, it's his brothers who wore the crown and not him, but there were many more Greyjoy kings in the ancient past. Their house claims descent from the Grey King himself.

[History of Westeros]

I don't think dragons can fly all the way to Westeros (no matter how big they are). They would have to be tamed enough to board a vessel, at least for a time. If the dragons were bound to Euron, he would have to be there to control them personally.

I thought so too, but Aegon rode Balerion to fight against the Volantenes during the Bleeding Years. That's not proof he flew all the way from Dragonstone, far from it. Balerion could've been loaded onto a ship, but Balerion was HUGE. I'm not sure there is a ship large enough for him. Maybe Balerion was less huge back then, he did live another ~100 years more or so.

So perhaps flying great distances may indeed be possible. Seems way too far, but *shrug* dragons are magical creatures so I guess it's an open question.

[History of Westeros]

Edited for double postage.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I thought so too, but Aegon rode Balerion to fight against the Volantenes during the Bleeding Years. That's not proof he flew all the way from Dragonstone, far from it. Balerion could've been loaded onto a ship, but Balerion was HUGE. I'm not sure there is a ship large enough for him. Maybe Balerion was less huge back then, he did live another ~100 years more or so.

So perhaps flying great distances may indeed be possible. Seems way too far, but *shrug* dragons are magical creatures so I guess it's an open question.

Balerion was a monster to be sure. His jaws were said to be wide enough to swallow a mammoth whole, and his wingspan was said to engulf entire towns.

However, medieval ships were massive. The cog, which was the preeminent ship used for medieval trade ranged from 15 to 25 meters (49 to 82 ft) in length, with a beam of 5 to 8 meters (16 - 26 ft), and could carry up to 240 tons.

Throughout the reading, cogs have been mentioned a great deal. So dragons can be transported quite easily if need be.

[History of Westeros]

Balerion was a monster to be sure. His jaws were said to be wide enough to swallow a mammoth whole, and his wingspan was said to engulf entire towns.

However, medieval ships were massive. The cog, which was the preeminent ship used for medieval trade ranged from 15 to 25 meters (49 to 82 ft) in length, with a beam of 5 to 8 meters (16 - 26 ft), and could carry up to 240 tons.

Throughout the reading, cogs have been mentioned a great deal. So dragons can be transported quite easily if need be.

Cool, that's good detail and you're probably right. I am now imagining giant wooden aircraft carriers and very frightened sailors... "we're carrying *what* on board?!?!"

Another thing I considered that helps your point is the great number of elephants we see brought over by the Golden Company/Volantene fleet.

[Walkingdude]

Please, may i beg your indulgence, im not good at this.JMHO. Looking to find a place to discuss Victorian and the coming battle...and after seeing the battle begin, i have come to the conclusion that Victorians horn will work.Please bear with me. Though he has come for Dany AND the dragons, she is not there....and wont be in time for the battle or soon after. Just Victorian gaining ground on the yunkai at the beginning of the battle and the turning of the sellswords/Dragons overhead will be enough to turn the battle. From his position he will be able to see the Dragons being served up human slim pate'..but they are not actually involved in the battle other than causing mass panic on the ground.He will have the horn blown. When the Yunkai forces are fleeing in withdraw i am sure that emissaries from pro Dany factions/turncoats will connect at some point with Victorians forces.His sorcerer has convinced me the horn will draw the dragons...but controlling them will be an issue.He will need Tyrion.Not so much as controlling the Dragon as learning of the Dragons...The thing his sorcerer cant do( but the red man will tell him of seeing Tyrion)..he will see the logic in it and it will convince Victorian to take him on later.In trade..Tyrion will bring the sellswords.Tyrion knows that getting the (two)Dragons to Westros will bring Dany and convince Victorian.Victorian still has an issue of weather or not Euron will take her for himself.Maybe controlling the dragons on the voyage will give him an upper hand. Not seeing Dany arrive for days after the route will convince him of this.Meereen is not his interest and it will be Danys problem when she gets back.What Ser Barristan does i do not know. Now, the problem of getting the dragons to follow.Simple.There will be heavy loses in the battle .There will be room on the ships for the new sellswords.In the battle. Victorian and everyone involved could see the(two) dragons only interest was in the body's being tossed up.( when they appeared full they withdrew). All he needs at this point with the horn drawing them is to fill a boat full of losers, grab a trebuchet and serve up human zagnuts on the voyage.The Dragons are already accustomed to ships since dragonbirth.Only problem i see is where the Dragons land on the ships.Definite crew problem..but I think that is why Victorian lucked on the bigger ships on his voyage. There is alot of details i dont see...like where he should land (Tyrion needs Casterly rock to pay the swords?) But the song Reynes keeps playing..connection me thinks..foothold for Tyrion/Vick?.and how the relationship between Sorcerer and Tryion will go?...ect...but its my opinion that Victorian will get the Dragons back to Westeros...with Dany hot on his tail with Drogon.I doubt she would need ships, Drogon can make it without and she doesnt need an army.. its there in Westeros. I think she will come to the conclusion that there can be a King and Queen but the country will have to be led by a Parliament for the people.There are enough characters to fill those rolls.She will realize that and leave the unsullied to tend Meereen.Its a wild shot. Thank you for your indulgence...now be kind to an old man of the road