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Amy Walker Gore

R+L=J v.22

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ok, I will start the new topic

I believe that R+L=J. I think that when Brandon was seeing the past in the Weirwoods and he saw Ned asking for his wife to understand, that was what he was referring to. I have a feeling that Howland Reed knows and that is why he won't leave his land. I don't believe they were married, I believe that Jon is a bastard, but also that R believed that his son would be AA ( as they had hoped he would be and then they had hoped Griff was him when he was a baby) and so that is why he sent the kings guard there to guard L. If it did turn out that J was AA, then R could have made him legit, but they were fighting a war and he had to leave L there alone so he left the guard there to watch over them. I am sure he thought he had time later to make it right. I think that when Ned found his sister, and she made him promise her, she believed her son would be AA so she asked Ned to take the boy and raise him till the time was right. I don't think that Ned believed her,I think that he just thought she was delirious from blood loss or pain,but he did take the baby and raise it as his own so his sister wouldn't be shamed and also so others wouldn't come to kill Reagher's bastard. Jon has no right to rule any more then any of Robert's bastards do, but they could still be used as pawn's ( like how Gendry's master sent him to the wall when Robert died).

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If that is true, at least one of the Kingsguard would have gone to protect Viserys, afterall, they are Kingsguard and if they weren't protecting the King, they are violating their Oaths, no matter how loyal they were to Rhaegar (who's dead), their over-riding priority is to the King, which at this point was Viserys.

Unless they knew Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, thus Jon is King. I believe that Jon had to be born before the fight so that the Kingsguard recognised Jon (or whatever his name was at this point, as Ned named him Jon) as the rightful King, therefore protecting him.

EDIT: punctuation.

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Unless they knew Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, thus Jon is King. I believe that Jon had to be born before the fight so that the Kingsguard recognised Jon (or whatever his name was at this point, as Ned named him Jon) as the rightful King, therefore protecting him.

Yes, this. They weren't with Viserys because Viserys was not the king.

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I think if Rhaegar ordered the 3 kingsguard to stay there an protect lyanna and the baby they would have listened. Everyone knew aerys was mad so rhaegar was pretty much the de facto king.

But none of this explains why they stayed at the ToJ even after Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead and the new king was (supposedly) holed up on Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. That is the question at issue, here.

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But none of this explains why they stayed at the ToJ even after Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead and the new king was (supposedly) holed up on Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. That is the question at issue, here.

Rhaegar gave them an order and they were honor/oath bound to obey it to the end. If they deserted, they'd be hated and scorned. Not as severly as Jaime, but enough to destroy their reputations.

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But none of this explains why they stayed at the ToJ even after Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead and the new king was (supposedly) holed up on Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. That is the question at issue, here.

because....

at least one of the Kingsguard would have gone to protect Viserys, afterall, they are Kingsguard and if they weren't protecting the King, they are violating their Oaths, no matter how loyal they were to Rhaegar (who's dead), their over-riding priority is to the King, which at this point was Viserys.

Unless they knew Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, thus Jon is King. I believe that Jon had to be born before the fight so that the Kingsguard recognised Jon (or whatever his name was at this point, as Ned named him Jon) as the rightful King, therefore protecting him.

EDIT: punctuation.

Yes!!

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Rhaegar gave them an order and they were honor/oath bound to obey it to the end. If they deserted, they'd be hated and scorned. Not as severly as Jaime, but enough to destroy their reputations.

The oath of the KG is to protect the King, with Aerys and Rhaegar dead, Viserys would be King if Rhaegar didnt leave an heir. But none of them were at Dragonstone protecting him (in fact they would be deserting if this was the case but it seems it wasnt) They tell Ned when he comes to the Tower that they are there fullfiling their oath and that the KG does not flee, meaning that they are where they have to be, protecting the King.

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Rhaegar gave them an order and they were honor/oath bound to obey it to the end. If they deserted, they'd be hated and scorned. Not as severly as Jaime, but enough to destroy their reputations.

They were honorbound to follow the orders of a dead prince even at the expense of the current king, who was without Kingsguard protection? I don't think so. That would mean they were holding their oath to obey orders above their oath to protect the king, when we know the opposite is true (Barristan refers to the Kingsguard's oath to protect the king as their "First Duty"). At the very least, I don't see why they couldn't have fulfilled both oaths by, say, sending at least one of their number to Dragonstone while the remaining knights stayed at the tower. The fact that they didn't do this says to me that the true heir was with them.

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On another topic, remember that on a previous version I presented the idea that a third person (besides Howland and Wylla) could be necessary to confirm Jon's identity if that ever becomes an issue in he books, and that my theory was that person would be Lord Hightower? Well, what if it's someone much more obvious, an actual authority on Eddard and Lyanna: our good old friend Benjen? If he is alive, that won't be a problem. If he is Coldhands we just have to wait for the Wall to fall (and that has to happen - the battle against the Others can't be restricted to beyond the Wall), and then he can confirm the story to those doubtful lords. I mean, who would dispute their brother's word?

I know there's barely anything in the books to support this idea, but I just have the feeling Benjen knows of Jon's parentage - even if Eddard never confirmed it to him, the man could always wonder...

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My favorites for confirmation of Jon's parentage (or at least, the possibility) would be Benjen and Barristan. Benjen probably knew of R+L, and we know Barristan knew. Lastly, Bran or Bloodraven might be a possibility, particularly if we get a more explicit scene with Ned in front of the heart tree of Winterfell, or if Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a weirwood. And then there still might be some info hidden in the crypts of Winterfell...

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My favorites for confirmation of Jon's parentage (or at least, the possibility) would be Benjen and Barristan. Benjen probably knew of R+L, and we know Barristan knew. Lastly, Bran or Bloodraven might be a possibility, particularly if we get a more explicit scene with Ned in front of the heart tree of Winterfell, or if Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a weirwood. And then there still might be some info hidden in the crypts of Winterfell...

How did Barristan know? He had gone over to Robert's side around the time of the ToJ fight.

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Not about Jon per se. But he did know about Rhaegar and Lyanna loving each other, and might be the one to confirm much of what the original witnesses (Wylla and Howland) say, up to the fact that Rhaegar stayed at the ToJ until way into the war.

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The oath of the KG is to protect the King, with Aerys and Rhaegar dead, Viserys would be King if Rhaegar didnt leave an heir. But none of them were at Dragonstone protecting him (in fact they would be deserting if this was the case but it seems it wasnt) They tell Ned when he comes to the Tower that they are there fullfiling their oath and that the KG does not flee, meaning that they are where they have to be, protecting the King.

Jaimie was with Aerys and Viserys was fleeing into exile. That's why Ser Gerold says the Kingsguard does not flee. The kingsguard also has to obey orders from the royal family. Lyanna was obviously of great importance to Rhaegar and the kingdom so it's not unlikely that Rhaegar those three to protect her and the child.

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Jaimie was with Aerys and Viserys was fleeing into exile. That's why Ser Gerold says the Kingsguard does not flee. The kingsguard also has to obey orders from the royal family. Lyanna was obviously of great importance to Rhaegar and the kingdom so it's not unlikely that Rhaegar those three to protect her and the child.

Aerys was dead by the time Ned found the Kingsguard at the ToJ, thus Viserys was the new king at the time. He did not have any Kingsguard protecting him on Dragonstone, which is what makes their decision to stay and guard the tower baffling. Hence why some of us believe Viserys was not the true heir.

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Aerys was dead by the time Ned found the Kingsguard at the ToJ, thus Viserys was the new king at the time. He did not have any Kingsguard protecting him on Dragonstone, which is what makes their decision to stay and guard the tower baffling. Hence why some of us believe Viserys was not the true heir.

It isn't known when those men were commanded to guard Lyanna there. They could have been there for months, it's not like everything had happened at once. And I'm not sure about this but doesn't one need to be crowned in order officially become the king? Viserys was fleeing the country, which makes him a deserter and traitor.

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It isn't known when those men were commanded to guard Lyanna there. They could have been there for months, it's not like everything had happened at once. And I'm not sure about this but doesn't one need to be crowned in order officially become the king? Viserys was fleeing the country, which makes him a deserter and traitor.

Firstly, Viserys was still on Dragonstone, and that is still in Westeros so he hadn't and wasn't fleeing the country. Secondly, being a king isn't like being in the Night's Watch so I don't think there is such a thing as punishment for being a deserter king. Also if he was the king and he left the country, who is he being a traitor to? Himself?Thirdly, he was just a little boy, if he was 'fleeing' I don't think anyone would blame him, in fact it probably wasn't a bad idea for his supporters to take him into exile for his own safety.

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