R+L=J v.22

[The guy from the Vale]

Yes, that's pretty likely. But even then I doubt Ned would be very speccific in that letter and rather refer Jon to Howland Reed (or Benjen?), because he knows Varys will read the letter, and Ned can hardly trust the spider...

[Eddward Stark]

Thank you. The three KG members where probably all aware of Rhaegars plans and all decided to stay, that's what I think.

By the way, a question. In aGoT, Ned -while in the dungeons- asks Varys if he would deliver a letter for him. If i'm correct, we don't know whether this letter was send or not, we don't know if it's even written by Ned. Could it be that it would also involve the whole R+L=J assumptions, and its consequences? Ned could have written a letter explaining Jons parentage, Varys could have red it and chose not to deliver it etc. etc.

Thank you. The three KG members where probably all aware of Rhaegars plans and all decided to stay, that's what I think.

By the way, a question. In aGoT, Ned -while in the dungeons- asks Varys if he would deliver a letter for him. If i'm correct, we don't know whether this letter was send or not, we don't know if it's even written by Ned. Could it be that it would also involve the whole R+L=J assumptions, and its consequences? Ned could have written a letter explaining Jons parentage, Varys could have red it and chose not to deliver it etc. etc.

Thank you. The three KG members where probably all aware of Rhaegars plans and all decided to stay, that's what I think.

By the way, a question. In aGoT, Ned -while in the dungeons- asks Varys if he would deliver a letter for him. If i'm correct, we don't know whether this letter was send or not, we don't know if it's even written by Ned. Could it be that it would also involve the whole R+L=J assumptions, and its consequences? Ned could have written a letter explaining Jons parentage, Varys could have red it and chose not to deliver it etc. etc.

I like how you think (including your previous post, too). I asked about this letter earlier in this same thread, and most people think it was never written. I'm going to keep hoping, and waiting for it to show up somewhere in the series, though. If the would-be letter were about Jon, Ned would have had to either risk (a) Vayrs doing something bad with it, or (B) Jon never finding out. I guess it comes down to how much Ned trusted/believed Varys about serving the realm, and how important Ned believed it was for Jon to find out about his parents. Ned clearly had Jon on the forefront of his mind, but we also know that he was not the type to believe in signs. Maybe he also didn't trust prophesies. Who knows? Maybe Jon told Ned about his recurring dreams of the crypts, and the letter to Jon simply says "Hey Jon, remember those dreams you told me about. Go live them out and find something."

[Independent George]

I like this parallel. But it seems to me if that was the case there would be three KG members in KL and one in the Tower of Joy....

What good does having an extra three Kingsguard in KL serve? If Rhaegar wins the Trident, King's Landing is safe; if Rhaegar loses, King's Landing is doomed. There is no middle ground. Three more Kingsguard won't make a difference in a between 80,000 men. Three Kingsguard can make all the difference at the Tower of Joy, though.

I like how you think (including your previous post, too). I asked about this letter earlier in this same thread, and most people think it was never written. I'm going to keep hoping, and waiting for it to show up somewhere in the series, though. If the would-be letter were about Jon, Ned would have had to either risk (a) Vayrs doing something bad with it, or ( B) Jon never finding out. I guess it comes down to how much Ned trusted/believed Varys about serving the realm, and how important Ned believed it was for Jon to find out about his parents.

There's no indication that Ned ever wrote a letter, and it seems extremely unlikely that he would have done so. Why would Ned trust Varys with something that important? It seems almost certain he did not.

[Serie]

What good does having an extra three Kingsguard in KL serve? If Rhaegar wins the Trident, King's Landing is safe; if Rhaegar loses, King's Landing is doomed. There is no middle ground. Three more Kingsguard won't make a difference in a between 80,000 men. Three Kingsguard can make all the difference at the Tower of Joy, though.

fair enough :) however, in the way Waterfall puts it in his post I'd expect that most of the KG members would protect the king and the rightful heir (Aegon) because of their vow.

[Waterfall]

About the letter. I just like the idea that the character Ned isn't quite done yet. His dead was a kickstart for a great series of events, that's for sure, but we can agree that Ned didn't intend for those events to happen. With something that is really his doing - something he wrote - everyone will find out what Ned really wanted, what was really on his mind all those days in Winterfell. I think it would be something that would really help to tie up a lot of ASOIAF stories. What, for example, would happen if unCat got a letter from Ned in her possession? Would she still trie murder all the Freys? Especcially the R+L=J could really use some Ned influence, in my opinion.

Offcourse, as a realist, I have to believe that a letter was probably never written.

fair enough :) however, in the way Waterfall puts it in his post I'd expect that most of the KG members would protect the king and the rightful heir (Aegon) because of their vow.

Well, the Barristan - ToJ parallel counted for all the three KG members in my post. They all believed in something that was worth more then their vows.

[The guy from the Vale]

Well, the Barristan - ToJ parallel counted for all the three KG members in my post. They all believed in something that was worth more then their vows.

I do think there's a parallel there, but the KG at the ToJ are very clear about being true to their vows, and being where they have to be - as KG members. So even if they originally stayed at Rhaegar's command, when Ned arrives they are keeping their vows as KG members. I could see a similar situation arising for Barristan in the near future; he's holding Meereen for his queen, but soon he might need the forces of Meeren to save her - so bending his vows in the short term allows him to keep them in the longer term.

[Lady Octarina]

About the letter. I just like the idea that the character Ned isn't quite done yet. His dead was a kickstart for a great series of events, that's for sure, but we can agree that Ned didn't intend for those events to happen. With something that is really his doing - something he wrote - everyone will find out what Ned really wanted, what was really on his mind all those days in Winterfell. I think it would be something that would really help to tie up a lot of ASOIAF stories. What, for example, would happen if unCat got a letter from Ned in her possession? Would she still trie murder all the Freys? Especcially the R+L=J could really use some Ned influence, in my opinion.

I agree it would be interesting to have one last contribution from Ned to these stories, but I think that's precisely Howland Reed's function here. Ned obviously trusted the guy, it's not impossible to believe he shared something with him. Or, the other wild card who may be alive or not, who may know about Jon or not: Ashara Dayne. Yes, I agree she probably got pregnant from Brandon, not Eddard, but that doesn't mean our dearest Stark didn't trust her, or was close friends with her - or that she already knew about the ToJ and what went up there, and Ned simply took advantage of her previous knowledge to open up to her about what she felt about all that. And there's also the third possibility to learn Ned's feelings on all this: good old Bran. If his last chapter in ADWD is any indication, I'd say he'll be our main source on this subject.

So, yes, I think the same people that can clarify R+L=J will shed some light on Ned's feelings about all this. If any letter will play some role in this story, I guess it would probably be from Rhaegar or Lyanna, maybe buried deep in the crypts, or in Lyanna's tomb (btw, does anyone have any idea how long paper or the Westerosi correspondent material would last in a crypt, with all those factors helping toward decomposition?), or probably at the Reed moving castle.

[Alia of the knife]

I agree it would be interesting to have one last contribution from Ned to these stories, but I think that's precisely Howland Reed's function here. Ned obviously trusted the guy, it's not impossible to believe he shared something with him. Or, the other wild card who may be alive or not, who may know about Jon or not: Ashara Dayne. Yes, I agree she probably got pregnant from Brandon, not Eddard, but that doesn't mean our dearest Stark didn't trust her, or was close friends with her - or that she already knew about the ToJ and what went up there, and Ned simply took advantage of her previous knowledge to open up to her about what she felt about all that. And there's also the third possibility to learn Ned's feelings on all this: good old Bran. If his last chapter in ADWD is any indication, I'd say he'll be our main source on this subject.

So, yes, I think the same people that can clarify R+L=J will shed some light on Ned's feelings about all this. If any letter will play some role in this story, I guess it would probably be from Rhaegar or Lyanna, maybe buried deep in the crypts, or in Lyanna's tomb (btw, does anyone have any idea how long paper or the Westerosi correspondent material would last in a crypt, with all those factors helping toward decomposition?), or probably at the Reed moving castle.

I think the clues are in Lyannas tomb.

Don't forget too that her statue was the only female Stark to be represented amongst the Kings of Winter, and later, the Lords of Winterfell.

Why?

Was it because she was so beloved of Ned that he erected this monument to her?

OR

Was it because she was a Princess of the Seven Kingdoms, including the North?

[Ice Turtle]

I agree it would be interesting to have one last contribution from Ned to these stories, but I think that's precisely Howland Reed's function here. Ned obviously trusted the guy, it's not impossible to believe he shared something with him. Or, the other wild card who may be alive or not, who may know about Jon or not: Ashara Dayne. Yes, I agree she probably got pregnant from Brandon, not Eddard, but that doesn't mean our dearest Stark didn't trust her, or was close friends with her - or that she already knew about the ToJ and what went up there, and Ned simply took advantage of her previous knowledge to open up to her about what she felt about all that. And there's also the third possibility to learn Ned's feelings on all this: good old Bran. If his last chapter in ADWD is any indication, I'd say he'll be our main source on this subject.

So, yes, I think the same people that can clarify R+L=J will shed some light on Ned's feelings about all this. If any letter will play some role in this story, I guess it would probably be from Rhaegar or Lyanna, maybe buried deep in the crypts, or in Lyanna's tomb (btw, does anyone have any idea how long paper or the Westerosi correspondent material would last in a crypt, with all those factors helping toward decomposition?), or probably at the Reed moving castle.

I nurse some small hope that Rhaegar wrote at least few letters to measter Aemon (which preferably still exist and are actually located in Jon Snow's reach), Aemon told Sam that Rhaegar thought that he was PTWP and then changed his mind, if it isn't just assumption from Aemon's side they had to communicate somehow.

[jon's_mom]

Oh so Howland Reed will come in and reveal R+L=J

*rolls eyes*

R+L does not equal J. Before you flip out, hear me out. A lot of the R+L theory is that one day the guy who never had a POV, Howland Reed, will show up and reveal what happened at the "Tower of Joy"

(do you really think it was a tower of joy? or do you think it was the opposite of joy?)

When it comes down to it, we don't know. What does Howland Reed know? I dunno, do you?

So here we are, none of us know what Howland Reed knows. Oh wait a second, we have Howland Reed's kids!!!

Howland Reed's kids make a special effort to track Bran down. I guess they know Bran is special through bog foretelling or whatever. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Howland Reed kids never mention Jon Snow, they don't give a shit about Jon Snow.

Why don't the Howland Reed kids care about Jon Snow? I guess because he is less important than what Bran is. The fans have elevated some fictional jesus-like-persona of Jon Snow who in reality is just like Bobba Fett or Jar Jar Binks, a small player who becomes a cult hero in a bigger story.

So yes, I love Jon Snow too.

Unfortunately, Jon Snow is dead. He isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and he died without saving the world or being the big part in a prophecy. If you can't accept that, go read another author.

my interpretation of the Reed kids with Bran was that Bran was the most important person.

hmm

yes re-thought it and my memory of the books is of both Reed children making Bran the centre of their attention.

Howland Reed's children were actually there for Bran... who sent them?

I propose that Howland Reed sent his children to help Bran for some bog people knowledge thing. I also propose that Howland Reed has never heard of and doesn't give a shit about Jon Snow.

So yes I think Jon Snow was born from Ned and someone else.

[Buried Treasure]

You are perfectly free to not believe R+L=J but refuting it based on the the Reed kids not choosing Jon makes for a poor argument as it is not the 'specialness' of Jon that is the princible reason for thinking his parents were Rheagar and Lyanna.

What convinced me is the timing, Ned's honour, Ned's lies, blue roses... you must be familiar with the rest of the argument by now.

Howland Reed's kids make a special effort to track Bran down. I guess they know Bran is special through bog foretelling or whatever. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Howland Reed kids never mention Jon Snow, they don't give a shit about Jon Snow.

Why don't the Howland Reed kids care about Jon Snow? I guess because he is less important than what Bran is. The fans have elevated some fictional jesus-like-persona of Jon Snow who in reality is just like Bobba Fett or Jar Jar Binks, a small player who becomes a cult hero in a bigger story.

Bran was sought out by Jojen because he was significant to Bloodraven / the old gods and needed a guide to help take him beyond the Wall. Jon doesn't have to be significant to the old gods (or no more so than any of his siblings as they all got wolves) and he doesn't need a mystic guide as he is already on the Wall and aware of the war against the others.

Jon's parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna doesn't have to have a magical significance - everybody has to have parents and that's not going to always mean something important. But, having already come to the conclusion that Jon is the child of R&L and because Ice + Fire is an established theme it seems possible that a child of Stark (ice) and Targ (fire) might be magically important. I don't think ice+fire would be important to the old gods though as they are only aware of the 'ice' part - just as only the 'fire' is of interest to R'hollor.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Okay I'm new here so if what I am about to say it taked about somewhere else let me know.

So I came to R+L=J on my own, however it wasn't until I read this thread that I thought Jon might be legitimate. Originally I thought the Kinsgguard were bad and perhaps they all kidnapped and raped Lyanna together with Rhaegar or something crazy like that. However, now I think it is pretty certian that they were actually guarding the rightful king (Jon). But then it got me thinking if the KG wanted to protect Lyanna and her baby and Ned obviously wanted to protect Lyanna and would never harm her child then WHY DID THEY FIGHT AT THE TOWER OF JOY? It seems to me that at this point the KG knows they have no hope of ensuring the proper succession of the crown occurs anytime soon because Targ support has all but disappeared. I think if they wanted to honor thier vows and protect Jon and get him on the throne, then they would appeal to Ned and the northmen in the hopes they would support a Stark child. A fight to the death doesn't really accomplish anything for the KG bc even if they win they're still stuck at the ToJ without any means to protect Jon or get him on the throne.

So I went back and reread any ToJ stuff I could find. In Ned's dream in Thrones it says that Ned's company and the KG rushed together, steel sang, etc and then they heard Lyanna scream "Eddard" and blue rose petals flew across the sky. Then Ned wakes up, end of dream. THere is no mention at all about anyone getting killed in this altercation. I think the fighting stopped when Lyanna screams, after all if Queen Lyanna wants to see her brother why wouldnt the KG obey. Again Ned is no threat whatsoever to Lyanna or her child. Then in CLash of KIngs, Bran recalls Ned saying that Arthur Dayne would have killed Ned if not for Howland Reed. Notice he doesn't say HR killed Dayne just that he prevented Dayne for killing Ned. Maybe HR came up with the whole idea to conceal Jon's identity and conviced the KG to go along thus prevented the KG from killing Ned and his companions. As far as I know there is no description in the text about people dying at the ToJ. All we know is that Ned returned Dawn to Starfall and Ned and HR are the only ones who returned to life as they knew it after the ToJ. All the rest is just assumed by the reader and by the people of Westeros.

So what I am asking is does anyone think it is possible that everyone who supposedly died at the ToJ is actually alive and in hiding, perhaps keepin an eye on Jon from afar or hiding at Greywater Watch with HR just waiting for an opportunity to present itself for them to put the rightful king on the throne?

[Dragonfish]

But then it got me thinking if the KG wanted to protect Lyanna and her baby and Ned obviously wanted to protect Lyanna and would never harm her child then WHY DID THEY FIGHT AT THE TOWER OF JOY?

The Kingsguard didn't necessarily know that Ned would not have harmed the child, or at the very least given the child up to Robert to be judged. Remember, Robert's allies had recently killed Rhaegar's other children, and the Kingsguard had no way of knowing that Ned was against said child killing. Even Lyanna had to beg Ned to take care of Jon, which goes to show that even she was unsure if Ned would have protected the child or given him to Robert. To the Kingsguard, Ned was a potential threat, and that is why they had to fight.

THere is no mention at all about anyone getting killed in this altercation.

Read a little further in that chapter. Ned states "they were seven against three, but only two lived to ride away."

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

The Kingsguard didn't necessarily know that Ned would not have harmed the child, or at the very least given the child up to Robert to be judged. Remember, Robert's allies had recently killed Rhaegar's other children, and the Kingsguard had no way of knowing that Ned was against said child killing. Even Lyanna had to beg Ned to take care of Jon, which goes to show that even she was unsure if Ned would have protected the child or given him to Robert. To the Kingsguard, Ned was a potential threat, and that is why they had to fight.

Read a little further in that chapter. Ned states "they were seven against three, but only two lived to ride away."

Do we really know what Lyanna begged Ned to do. Could be she was begging him to make Jon the king or begging him to just hide his identity. Also "only two lived to ride away" might mean that only two left with thier original identities intact. Even if the KG didn't wasn't sure whether or not Ned would threaten the baby, Ned or Howland Reed could have convinced them they were no threat.

[Dragonfish]

Do we really know what Lyanna begged Ned to do. Could be she was begging him to make Jon the king or begging him to just hide his identity.

I don't think so. Or at the very least, I don't think it was just these things you mention. Remember, Lyanna was afraid until Ned gave his promise. Now combine this with Ned's comparison of Lyanna's pleading to Sansa's pleading for Lady, and I think it becomes clear that whatever Lyanna was concerned about, it had to do with protecting something. And if Lyanna was afraid Ned would not protect Jon until he gave his word, then there is no reason to think the Kinsguard would have expected Ned to protect the child.

Also "only two lived to ride away" might mean that only two left with thier original identities intact. Even if the KG didn't wasn't sure whether or not Ned would threaten the baby, Ned or Howland Reed could have convinced them they were no threat.

That is really stretching things. "Only two lived to ride away" is a pretty unambiguous statement. It means that two lived, and the others did not.

Also, keep in mind that the "only two lived to ride away" line comes from Ned's own thoughts. Why would he be so circumspect about their fates in his own mind?

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

It definitely is a stretch but I do think GRRM purposely left this possiblility open. Why else would Martin not describe any of the fight to the readers through Ned's thoughts and why wouldn't Ned tell Bran how Howland Reed saved him from Ser Arthur Dayne?

Lyanna hearing Ned promise to protect Jon would definitely ease Lyanna's mind but I don't think that anyone would ever have to beg the honorable Ned Stark to protect a completely innocent newborn child, much less his own nephew.

And as for the Kingsguard fighting Ned and the northmen, what exactly would their end game be? Let Jon grow up to be the king of the Tower of Joy. Ned and the northmen are the only people in the realm that might support Jon. Dorne would never help Jon because Rhaegar dishonored Elia and ran off with Lyanna. The Tyrells pledged fealty to Robert. Storms End, the Riverlands, the West and the Vale are all Robert's and the only Targaryens are basically powerless on Dragonstone. If the KG thought that thier deaths would result in Jon being handed over to Robert, then the only way they could actually keep thier vows would be to not die and not let Jon get handed over to Robert.

[jon's_mom]

you are also "stretching" things by saying there is a baby in the first place.

You talk about Lyanna "begging" Ned about a "baby"

umm she asked him to promise her something, I don't remember anything about a baby in the text.

Yeah I see most of the kingsguard dying in the text. I assume they were protecting Rhaegar who was planning a coup versus his mad father and so forth.

It takes a pretty big stretch to assume his kidnap victim (Lyanna) was suddenly his lover who he legitimized and had a princely son with.

The people coming up with stories about the kingsguard secretly hiding while they wait for a chance to come out and support Jon Snow the "real" king is equally as legitimate as other people's claims that there "was a baby and thats why the kingsguard was there because the kg had to protect the second bastard son of the son of the king"

it's almost like my earlier post never happened. It just gets ignored by this cult who refuse to look at facts.

[Dragonfish]

It definitely is a stretch but I do think GRRM purposely left this possiblility open. Why else would Martin not describe any of the fight to the readers through Ned's thoughts and why wouldn't Ned tell Bran how Howland Reed saved him from Ser Arthur Dayne?

If GRRM wanted to leave the possibility open that more people than Ned and Howland survived, then he wouldn't have written "only two lived to ride away" in the first place. He would have written something much more ambiguous, or nothing at all.

Lyanna hearing Ned promise to protect Jon would definitely ease Lyanna's mind but I don't think that anyone would ever have to beg the honorable Ned Stark to protect a completely innocent newborn child, much less his own nephew.

It was Ned's honor that would have made them wary of him in the first place. If they knew the kind of man he was, then they'd know he'd be loyal to the king and wouldn't do anything to betray him. Ned might not kill the child himself, but there's nothing to say that he wouldn't feel duty-bound to hand the child over to his king. Even lying to the king about the child's existence would be treason, and the Kingsguard may very well have wanted to keep Jon's existence secret for as long as possible.

And as for the Kingsguard fighting Ned and the northmen, what exactly would their end game be?

I don't know what their endgame would have been, but it obviously wasn't as hopeless as you suggest, given that Dany and Aegon have found success in rallying supporters to retake the throne.

Besides, there's nothing to say the Kingsguard would ever have been practical. I'm sure if Ned had surrounded them with an entire army, they still would have fought to the death, because it was their duty to do so.

[Buried Treasure]

I think if we seperate the questions of why the kingsguard stayed at the ToJ and why they fought when Ned and his companions arrived then the second question is the easiest answered.

Ned and his companions are sworn to Robert, the KG are sworn to the Targaryens. They are all honourable men on the opposite sides of a war. They don't have to be fighting to protect anybody, or to reach anybody, or to be keeping any secrets - its enough that their respective duties compel them to fight. Ned's general purpose for being in the south is to defeat the final Targaryen loyalists and get them to bend the knee. These KG are too loyal to give fealty to Robert, but they could not be permitted to just ride away (even if they were so inclined). These 3 have been at the ToJ / in KL for probably most of the war - so this is first time they fight any of Robert's forces ('And now it begins'). Ned has fought many battles during the war but as he expects the rest of the Targaryen bannermen to bend the knee he will probably not have to kill again after this fight ('No. Now it ends'). The fight is tragic, but inevitable.

[Dragonfish]

you are also "stretching" things by saying there is a baby in the first place.

You talk about Lyanna "begging" Ned about a "baby"

umm she asked him to promise her something, I don't remember anything about a baby in the text.

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious and I agree with R+L=J, so I was simply arguing from the premise.

Regardless, there is evidence of a baby at the ToJ. The presence of a Kingsguard itself is a pretty big indication, as is Ned's description of Lyanna's "bed of blood", which is later used by MMD as a reference to childbirth.

Yeah I see most of the kingsguard dying in the text. I assume they were protecting Rhaegar who was planning a coup versus his mad father and so forth.

Uh, Rhaegar was already dead by the time the fight at the ToJ occurred. Try again.

It takes a pretty big stretch to assume his kidnap victim (Lyanna) was suddenly his lover who he legitimized and had a princely son with.

What makes you think she was a kidnap victim?

The people coming up with stories about the kingsguard secretly hiding while they wait for a chance to come out and support Jon Snow the "real" king is equally as legitimate as other people's claims that there "was a baby and thats why the kingsguard was there because the kg had to protect the second bastard son of the son of the king"

I don't think so. It doesn't really make sense that the Kingsguard would prioritize protecting a bastard child while the actual heir to the throne was on Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection.

it's almost like my earlier post never happened. It just gets ignored by this cult who refuse to look at facts.

Your earlier post was based on abysmal logic, which was ably refuted by BuriedTreasure.

Also, you are the one who apparently is ignorant of the "facts." You don't seem to have any clue about all the evidence there is for R+L=J. So before you argue any further, I suggest you read this essay to get up to speed.

Oh, and by the way, R+L=J has nothing to do with liking Jon. Even people who dislike his character believe in R+L=J.