R+L=J v.22

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

I found a thread about the topic of Arthur Dayne being alive.

"They were seven agianst three, but only two lived to ride away" means that two of the seven northmen lived. It does not suggest that any of the KG died.

[Serie]

I found a thread about the topic of Arthur Dayne being alive.

http://asoiaf.wester...s-alive-theory/

"They were seven agianst three, but only two lived to ride away" means that two of the seven northmen lived. It does not suggest that any of the KG died.

its not clear. It may mean that out of ten people who fought at the ToJ only two survived. Besides doesn't Eddard remembers of burying Ser Arthur Dayne?

[Dragonfish]

I found a thread about the topic of Arthur Dayne being alive.

http://asoiaf.wester...s-alive-theory/

"They were seven agianst three, but only two lived to ride away" means that two of the seven northmen lived. It does not suggest that any of the KG died.

It doesn't necessarily mean that any of the Kingsguard died, but it makes it pretty likely. At the very least, we know a fight occurred, and it's hard to end a fight peacfullly once it's already begun, especially with five of your companions already dead. We also know that Ned recalls building eight cairns for the bodies. Once again, I find it hard to believe that Ned is being deliberately circumspect in his own mind about these men's deaths.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

It doesn't necessarily mean that any of the Kingsguard died, but it makes it pretty likely. At the very least, we know a fight occurred, and it's hard to end a fight peacfullly once it's already begun, especially with five of your companions already dead. We also know that Ned recalls building eight cairns for the bodies. Once again, I find it hard to believe that Ned is being deliberately circumspect in his own mind about these men's deaths.

Ned is not being circumspect at all, you are just interpreting the text wrong. He is saying of the the seven men who fought the kingsguard, 2 survived. The fate of the Kingsguard is not explained by this line at all. The point I am trying to make is that there is a slim chance that Dayne, Whent and Hightower are alive still. I do not see why GRRM would even leave it open to interpretation if he didn't intend for this to be a story. If the Kingsguard are dead, why wouldn't he just take the two minutes to write a sentence about Ned remembering actually killing one of them? The cairns might ruin the whole theory. I can't explain the cairns.

its not clear. It may mean that out of ten people who fought at the ToJ only two survived. Besides doesn't Eddard remembers of burying Ser Arthur Dayne?

It doesn't say out of the ten people, it says out of the seven.

[The guy from the Vale]

Yes, but Ned built eight cairns and took Lyanna north. So I'd assume eight people died in that fight... leaving two to live in total.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Yes, but Ned built eight cairns and took Lyanna north. So I'd assume eight people died in that fight... leaving two to live in total.

If five northmen, 3 Kingsguard and Lyanna were all dead then Ned would need nine cairns. Why wouldn't he count Lyanna? Maybe Howland Reed got past the KG and got his hands on the newborn Jon, which could have been enough to make the fighting stop. Perhaps at this point the only people still alive were Ned, HR and one of the KG. That would make the death count 5 northmen, 2 KG and Lyanna for a total of 8. I know at this point I'm really trying to make the evidence fit the theory but who knows right?

[Serie]

It doesn't say out of the ten people, it says out of the seven.

no, it says "seven against three" that makes ten. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, I'm saying its not clear, it could mean any of the two :) However, since we have Ned burying eight bodies (he says so in his own POV), as Dragonfish already mentioned, I'd say two out of ten.

Why wouldn't he count Lyanna?

I believe he doesn't count Lyanna because she didn't took part in the fight.

[The guy from the Vale]

If five northmen, 3 Kingsguard and Lyanna were all dead then Ned would need nine cairns. Why wouldn't he count Lyanna? Maybe Howland Reed got past the KG and got his hands on the newborn Jon, which could have been enough to make the fighting stop. Perhaps at this point the only people still alive were Ned, HR and one of the KG. That would make the death count 5 northmen, 2 KG and Lyanna for a total of 8. I know at this point I'm really trying to make the evidence fit the theory but who knows right?

If five northmen, 3 Kingsguard and Lyanna were all dead then Ned would need nine cairns. Why wouldn't he count Lyanna? Maybe Howland Reed got past the KG and got his hands on the newborn Jon, which could have been enough to make the fighting stop. Perhaps at this point the only people still alive were Ned, HR and one of the KG. That would make the death count 5 northmen, 2 KG and Lyanna for a total of 8. I know at this point I'm really trying to make the evidence fit the theory but who knows right?

Reading comprehension 101. Ned took Lyanna North (and burie her in the crypts of Winterfell, with a statue of her own, a honour only granted to Kings and Lords of the North... and perhaps princesses of all the Seven Kingdoms?)

[King Doug]

If five northmen, 3 Kingsguard and Lyanna were all dead then Ned would need nine cairns. Why wouldn't he count Lyanna? Maybe Howland Reed got past the KG and got his hands on the newborn Jon, which could have been enough to make the fighting stop. Perhaps at this point the only people still alive were Ned, HR and one of the KG. That would make the death count 5 northmen, 2 KG and Lyanna for a total of 8. I know at this point I'm really trying to make the evidence fit the theory but who knows right?

Ned took Lyanna's body North to the crypts in Winterfell. It would be sweet if Arthur Dayne were still alive, but I don't see it. It would be even sweeter if The Sword in the Morning was ALSO the Darkstar. But now I'm just getting ridiculous

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Okay I didn't realize a cairn was like a monument type thing. For some reason I was thinking of coffins. So Ned definitely wouldn't make one for Lyanna. However if there was some sort of conspiracy to hide any surviving kingsguard, they would still build eight cairns so the world would believe them all to be dead. It doesn't say they buried 8 bodies, just built eight cairns.

[Dragonfish]

Ned is not being circumspect at all, you are just interpreting the text wrong.

No I'm not. "They were seven against three, but only two lived to ride away" could be interpreted to mean "only two of the seven lived" or "only two of the seven vs. three men lived." Both interpretations are possible, but I lean toward the latter one because it makes more sense to me based on Ned's other thoughts. He remembers building eight cairns, and he remembers that the Kingsguard were pretty keen on sticking to their vow and never fleeing. For them to go from "the Kingsguard do not flee" to "oh yeah, the Kingsguard can totally flee" would not only contradict Ned's thoughts, but cheapen the characters and the event as a whole.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

"They were seven agianst three, but only two lived to ride away"

The conjunction but is used to present constrast or a contradiction. If Martin wanted to say that 2 people lived total, he would have said, "They were seven agianst three, and only two lived to ride away". He used but because he is saying that only 2 of the 7 survived despite outnumbering the 3.

[Dragonfish]

Well, here's the actual, literal quote: "They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away: Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed." I think your point remains the same whether the conjunction is "but" or "yet."

In any case, I don't think the word "yet" irrevocably leads to your interpretation. You could just as easily interpret it to mean "there were ten men alive, yet now only two of them live." The contradiction lies in the fact that most of the men were once living, but are now dead.

Also, if Ned wished to fake the Kingsguard's death, I think building cairns ought to have been the exact opposite thing to do. That's basically like saying, "Anyone curious to see if there were any bodies left should look here." It would've made more sense to say he burned them or something.

[Alia of the knife]

Reading comprehension 101. Ned took Lyanna North (and burie her in the crypts of Winterfell, with a statue of her own, a honour only granted to Kings and Lords of the North... and perhaps princesses of all the Seven Kingdoms?)

That very thing is what stood out to me.

I know that Ned loved his Sister, but I think he did that not from sentimentality, but in honor of her rank.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

"They were seven agianst three, but only two lived to ride away"

The conjunction but is used to present constrast or a contradiction. If Martin wanted to say that 2 people lived total, he would have said, "They were seven agianst three, and only two lived to ride away". He used but because he is saying that only 2 of the 7 survived despite outnumbering the 3.

Well, here's the actual, literal quote: "They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away: Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed." I think your point remains the same whether the conjunction is "but" or "yet."

In any case, I don't think the word "yet" irrevocably leads to your interpretation. You could just as easily interpret it to mean "there were ten men alive, yet now only two of them live." The contradiction lies in the fact that most of the men were once living, but are now dead.

Also, if Ned wished to fake the Kingsguard's death, I think building cairns ought to have been the exact opposite thing to do. That's basically like saying, "Anyone curious to see if there were any bodies left should look here." It would've made more sense to say he burned them or something.

We both make good points and either interpretation might be correct. Your idea of the cairns being the opposite thing to do is good point as well. However, I think cairns are built in such a way that if anyone tries to get in, the whole thing would collapse, thus detering anyone from disturbing the dead or grave robbing.

The one thing we know for certain is that the whole Tower of Joy situation is uncertain. What I don't understand is if was a simple case of everyone dying in a battle besides Ned and Reed, why aren't the facts being presented to the reader in a simple, understandable way. The fact that what actually happened is unclear leads me to believe that the truth is not as simple as people make it out to be.

[Lady Octarina]

Do we really know what Lyanna begged Ned to do. Could be she was begging him to make Jon the king or begging him to just hide his identity. Also "only two lived to ride away" might mean that only two left with thier original identities intact. Even if the KG didn't wasn't sure whether or not Ned would threaten the baby, Ned or Howland Reed could have convinced them they were no threat.

Like I said before, I agree that there is great chances that what Lyanna begged of Ned was something else, not that he hide Jon. I mean, why else would he torture himself over broken promises on his last chapter? He really had no reason to believe Jon wasn't safe at the NW at that point.

But I find it rather unlikely, if not impossible, that any KG survived. It seems we have enough dead people that are actually alive and hidden already... And what narrative purpose would it have? Supporting Jon's claim or legitimacy? There are many simpler ways to have that.

The one thing we know for certain is that the whole Tower of Joy situation is uncertain. What I don't understand is if was a simple case of everyone dying in a battle besides Ned and Reed, why aren't the facts being presented to the reader in a simple, understandable way. The fact that what actually happened is unclear leads me to believe that the truth is not as simple as people make it out to be.

I agree that all that mystery simply has to raise our suspicion, but whatever happened there, it doesn't necessarily mean that a KG survived, especially for what Dragonfish mentioned, all their talk about "the KG does not flee" etc. I do believe it will be better explained soon enough, maybe even in TWOW (though Howland Reed seems to have his hands full already - ten-page monologue anyone? =P).

But I have to admit the idea that Arthur Dayne might be alive somewhere does sound attractive :cool4:

[Alia of the knife]

Thought that was an interesting statement by Joffrey that "they" the Starks were weak because they valued their women too much.

So, after years of abuse that Brandon Stark has taken, could it be that he actually went to KL because he was scared of out of his wits for Lyanna, rather than he went there to drag her back to marry Robert, as one theory goes?

[kg1982]

I've always thought that Brandon really did believe that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. I think that the whole idea that Brandon went to King's Landing to retrieve the Starks' property is out of feminist revision theory. It seems more likely that he did so out of love for his sister.

[Milcov]

Ned remembers taking Dawn back to Dayne's home, I think we need to accept that some people are dead.

[Lady Octarina]

Thought that was an interesting statement by Joffrey that "they" the Starks were weak because they valued their women too much.

So, after years of abuse that Brandon Stark has taken, could it be that he actually went to KL because he was scared of out of his wits for Lyanna, rather than he went there to drag her back to marry Robert, as one theory goes?

I think both reasons might have sent him to King's Landing: his being worried about Lyanna, and trying to protect the family honor, or some such thing. But we shouldn't try to rationalize it that much; from all we know Brandon was so impulsive that his ride to KL was probably only his instinctual response to a difficult situation, maybe he only thought about it while he was locked in the dungeons waiting for his father's arrival.