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R+L=J v.22


Amy Walker Gore

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I 100% do not think that Ashara is Jon's mother, but if she was, I don't see why he couldn't become Sword of the Morning. Dawn is passed down based on merit (though exactly how it's earned and/or who decides who gets it remain to be seen), not straight hereditary lines.

Well, it's based on merit within House Dayne, which is why Jon's bastardy and female-line connection to House Dayne (assuming N+A=J, which I emphatically do not believe) might make him a long-shot candidate for Sword of the Morning.

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Howland Reed definitely knows, as does Wylla the wetnurse. If they are still alive, Benjen Stark and Ashara Dayne would be the next best candidates, but both might be dead. Bloodraven might know, particularly if R+L married in front of a heart tree, and while Ser Barristan probably doesn't know about Jon's existence, he knows about R+L being in love, and might know enough about the KG at the ToJ that he could confirm a first-hand report by Reed or Wylla as true.

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Well, it's based on merit within House Dayne, which is why Jon's bastardy and female-line connection to House Dayne (assuming N+A=J, which I emphatically do not believe) might make him a long-shot candidate for Sword of the Morning.

Yes, that's what I meant. It's within House Dayne, I thought that was a given.

This might be a dumb question, but assuming R + L = J is indeed true....which characters are still around (alive) to confirm or show proof of this? Who else would know this truth besides Ned, Rhaegar, or Lyanna?

Howland Reed, Wylla, Bloodraven and Ashara Dayne (if she's really alive) all likely know.

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Howland Reed definitely knows, as does Wylla the wetnurse. If they are still alive, Benjen Stark and Ashara Dayne would be the next best candidates, but both might be dead. Bloodraven might know, particularly if R+L married in front of a heart tree, and while Ser Barristan probably doesn't know about Jon's existence, he knows about R+L being in love, and might know enough about the KG at the ToJ that he could confirm a first-hand report by Reed or Wylla as true.

I am not sure about Wylla or Ashara Dayne, all threw the books there seems to be a lot of rumors on Jon's mother. I think that is done on purpose so we all think something different and will be surprised in the end. I know I saw an interview somewhere with GRRM where he said that he has put the truth of what will happen in the end ( I think he was speaking in general terms and not Jon specifically) since the second book. I think he just meant that the truth is in there, but either enough of other doubts will spring up along the way, or maybe it just seems to be to small a mention to be worth anything big in the end.

I do also remember GRRM said about killing off main characters, that he wasn't killing off anyone that he would need in the end, that some of the really important people for the ending are just in the background for now and that he has pretty much always known where all the characters were heading since the beginning. I think ( and this is just me) that if we need to know something to be a fact, that the proof has been there all along and that the right people will know the truth. We are all assuming that everyone who needs to tell Jon's parentage is gone. We could all be surprised and might not need to know for this whole thing to wrap up. We could all be wrong and GRRM could be planning on putting Marcella on the throne or leave Tommen ( I doubt it , but who knows what is going through GRRM's mind?).

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I guess I left off, that Wylla and Ashara knowing the truth, we could have been mislead on them knowing. I think Reed knows, it has been mentioned more then once about him ( I am not sure, but I think by more then one character as well ) that he and Ned were the only survivors of ToJ. I know that Wylla and Ashara have been mentioned by more then one character, but I believe that different people have mentioned them differently .

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Yes, that's what I meant. It's within House Dayne, I thought that was a given.

My point was that if being a member of House Dayne is a pre-requisite for receiving Dawn, then the fact that Jon is not a member (due to his bastardy and/or female line connection) would, theoretically, prevent him from receiving the sword.

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Okay, I was flipping through AGoT, Ned's last chapter, and finally paid attention to this particular point:

He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking hours were worse than nightmares.

Then we have a page and a half describing his precarious situation in prison, and about a page of his remembering Harrenhall, a right after...

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

So, obviously, there's 99% of chances that the broken promises refer to whatever Lyanna asked of him. Up to now I had assumed she only asked for him to take care of Jon, protect him, love him, keep him a secret, whatever, but then I read something on one of these threads (v.21, perhaps?) that led me to search for this passage. Whoever it was that suggested Lyanna had asked something else of him, you were right.

Now it's only a matter of finding out what it was. To tell him the truth? To fight to install him on the throne? Something prophecy-related? Telling him the truth is the only of these options that sounds reasonable, but she was feverish and dying when she asked him, so who knows? She might have thought he really should be put on the throne, forgetting he could have the same fate as Rhaegar's other children. On the other hand, whatever it was she had to ask him to do, it had to be extremely important for her to cling to life that way, probably only waiting for his arrival...

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I am not sure about Wylla or Ashara Dayne, all threw the books there seems to be a lot of rumors on Jon's mother. I think that is done on purpose so we all think something different and will be surprised in the end. I know I saw an interview somewhere with GRRM where he said that he has put the truth of what will happen in the end ( I think he was speaking in general terms and not Jon specifically) since the second book. I think he just meant that the truth is in there, but either enough of other doubts will spring up along the way, or maybe it just seems to be to small a mention to be worth anything big in the end.

I do also remember GRRM said about killing off main characters, that he wasn't killing off anyone that he would need in the end, that some of the really important people for the ending are just in the background for now and that he has pretty much always known where all the characters were heading since the beginning. I think ( and this is just me) that if we need to know something to be a fact, that the proof has been there all along and that the right people will know the truth. We are all assuming that everyone who needs to tell Jon's parentage is gone. We could all be surprised and might not need to know for this whole thing to wrap up. We could all be wrong and GRRM could be planning on putting Marcella on the throne or leave Tommen ( I doubt it , but who knows what is going through GRRM's mind?).

Remember that Wylla is confirmed to have been Jon's wetnurse, so she's more than just likely to know. When Lyanna became sick, Jon already needed a wetnurse, and with Wylla staying in Starfall later, I think it's safe to assume she was directly available to Ned - either he brought her with him to the ToJ, or, more likely, she was at the ToJ even before Ned arrived (possibly being the midwife, too). So yes, she would know. Ashara is less clear, but Starfall is the closest castle to the ToJ, and they had to be supplied from somewhere, so the Daynes (and, particularly, Ashara) are more likely to know than other people.

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Remember that Wylla is confirmed to have been Jon's wetnurse, so she's more than just likely to know. When Lyanna became sick, Jon already needed a wetnurse, and with Wylla staying in Starfall later, I think it's safe to assume she was directly available to Ned - either he brought her with him to the ToJ, or, more likely, she was at the ToJ even before Ned arrived (possibly being the midwife, too). So yes, she would know. Ashara is less clear, but Starfall is the closest castle to the ToJ, and they had to be supplied from somewhere, so the Daynes (and, particularly, Ashara) are more likely to know than other people.

She could have been the midwife, so she would have known, but I don't think she would have known any more then anyone else if she was just the wet nurse.I don't think Ned ever told anyone who the mother was except Robert, but it is possible he lied to Robert just to shut him up and stop asking so many questions. I also think that with 2 books to go ( and GRRM has hinted maybe 3 if he can't fit it all in 2) that we have to far to go and so we might not know for years to come ( the waiting is maddening! ). We could all be laughing about all of this by the time we get to the end because what if one of us was right ( or all of us wrong)

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She could have been the midwife, so she would have known, but I don't think she would have known any more then anyone else if she was just the wet nurse.I don't think Ned ever told anyone who the mother was except Robert, but it is possible he lied to Robert just to shut him up and stop asking so many questions. I also think that with 2 books to go ( and GRRM has hinted maybe 3 if he can't fit it all in 2) that we have to far to go and so we might not know for years to come ( the waiting is maddening! ). We could all be laughing about all of this by the time we get to the end because what if one of us was right ( or all of us wrong)

Again, it's likely Lyanna sent for a wetnurse, either before giving birth or directly after, when the puerperal fever set in. And why should Ned have changed the wetnurse later? So, until we get information suggesting otherwise, we should assume Wylla knows, or at least knows about Lyanna being Jon's mother.

As for Ned telling Robert: nope, he isn't telling him about Jon's mother. Robert just asks who "that commoner of [Ned]'s" was, to which Ned answers "Wylla", but he never confirms that Wylla is Jon's mother - he just chooses not to correct Robert when he jumps to that conclusion.

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She could have been the midwife, so she would have known, but I don't think she would have known any more then anyone else if she was just the wet nurse.I don't think Ned ever told anyone who the mother was except Robert, but it is possible he lied to Robert just to shut him up and stop asking so many questions. I also think that with 2 books to go ( and GRRM has hinted maybe 3 if he can't fit it all in 2) that we have to far to go and so we might not know for years to come ( the waiting is maddening! ). We could all be laughing about all of this by the time we get to the end because what if one of us was right ( or all of us wrong)

Wylla has independently corroborated Ned's story that she's Jon's mother, heavily implying that she is "in on it." I also believe that she was Lyanna's midwife/wet nurse. And Robert thinks Wylla is Jon's mother, so yeah, Ned didn't tell him the truth of it.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't Jon's parents, I'll eat my hat.

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The thing about Lyanna, She was so tough, a she wolf. i understand that giving birth, including a first child was dangerous for the mother in medeval society. After reading ADwD I was hit by the possibility that maybe she gave birth to twins and that trauma, being her first birth would be enough to kill such a strong woman. "Whylla" is a name that might be more than a red herring or maybe not. Switching babies seems to be something that could have been pulled off but not here. Jon is definitely a Stark either through Lyanna as mother or Ned or Brandon as a father. Ned never calls directly to Jon as "son" in AGoT and that is signifigant. I am paranoid of twists in this series after Aegon/Young Griff that it would not surprise me if GRRM has Jon as Brandon's boy with Ashara Dayne and Lyana might still be alive with Rheagar's kid (maybe he is Aegon/Young Griff and she is Septa Lemore), who the f knows. What about the Kingsguard? Did all of them die or was there a solution offered that included them as faking their deaths and taking the pince into exile to save him? Or did it all go down as the peices of this story have suggested they did. Until Howland Reed reveals himself, drinks a large stein of ale and finds someone to talk to, we may never know.

I will agree with this. We will argue endlessly about all of this with the information we have been provided until JRRM thinks it time for us to have Lord Reed's knowledge.

Howland Reed's children have answered much and more on our unasked questions about the north, I think Lord Reed himself will answer much and more about past happenings in the south.

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We also have to consider that Howland Reed is the only known living character who could know of Jon's Lineage.

How high is his honor?

The same goes for Griff...

If we doubt Griff, how can we hold Lord Reed to high honor?

And vice versa.

Basically, if you want to claim Jon over young Aegon... you need to define a reason why you don't believe their claim and the claimant. Why don't you like Jon or Aegon as king, and why do you think their claimant/king maker is being fraudulent or false.

As so far I have no reason to think Griff is being false. I think he knows Aegon is the real thing, even if he isn't.

Howland is still off screen and yet to back Jon (who may be dead) as king.

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We also have to consider that Howland Reed is the only known living character who could know of Jon's Lineage.

How high is his honor?

The same goes for Griff...

If we doubt Griff, how can we hold Lord Reed to high honor?

And vice versa.

Basically, if you want to claim Jon over young Aegon... you need to define a reason why you don't believe their claim and the claimant. Why don't you like Jon or Aegon as king, and why do you think their claimant/king maker is being fraudulent or false.

As so far I have no reason to think Griff is being false. I think he knows Aegon is the real thing, even if he isn't.

Howland is still off screen and yet to back Jon (who may be dead) as king.

Because Griff would have to know the truth, in the first place. He wasn't there when the supposed baby switch took place; all he knows is that some time later, he was presented with a silver-haired boy about whom some people CLAIM he is Aegon. On the contrary, HR is an eye witness.

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Because Griff would have to know the truth, in the first place. He wasn't there when the supposed baby switch took place; all he knows is that some time later, he was presented with a silver-haired boy about whom some people CLAIM he is Aegon. On the contrary, HR is an eye witness.

But surely being a contemporary of rhaegar and Elia he would notice if young griff/aegon didn't resemble his father or mother?

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But surely being a contemporary of rhaegar and Elia he would notice if young griff/aegon didn't resemble his father or mother?

I think that family resemblance is highly variable. For instance, my two cousins are tall, skinny men with long faces, who do not particularly resemble either of their parents. As long as "Aegon" has the right colouring and doesn't sport any strikingly different features, he can easily pass off as the Aegon. - But this is for another thread.

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We also have to consider that Howland Reed is the only known living character who could know of Jon's Lineage.

How high is his honor?

The same goes for Griff...

If we doubt Griff, how can we hold Lord Reed to high honor?

And vice versa.

Basically, if you want to claim Jon over young Aegon... you need to define a reason why you don't believe their claim and the claimant. Why don't you like Jon or Aegon as king, and why do you think their claimant/king maker is being fraudulent or false.

As so far I have no reason to think Griff is being false. I think he knows Aegon is the real thing, even if he isn't.

Howland is still off screen and yet to back Jon (who may be dead) as king.

There are quite a few clues in the books that YG is a fake and probably Illyrio's son just like there are quite a few clues in the book that Jon is probably Lyanna's son. The reader is privy to these clues, especially the ones about Jon, because we have access to the characters' memories. Westros doesn't have access to these inner thoughts and people will probably be suspect of both claims.

As for why Wylla and Howland Reed are more reliable witnesses than JonCon, it is mentioned above that both are eyewitnesses whereas JonCon only took custody of Griff when he was around five. Also, JonCon desperately wants to believe that Rhaegar's son is alive to atone for failing his father and is easily manipulated. In contrast, both Wylla and Howland Reed are impartial observers. It is interesting that Illyrio sent Selmy to Dany rather than to YG since Selmy's presence would make people less skeptical of YG. Selmy as a Kingsguard would have probably seen the flaws in YG's fantastic story of escape.

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