No "Second Life" for Sansa

[Silverin]

She will fly, but not warging.

What do you mean, will she be a dragonrider then? (I highly doubt that though.)

Because she does not live up in the Montains anymore, she probably won't fly from the Moondoor.

If I remember correctly the giant falcons that the Andals originally rode are already extinc.

I read once a really interesting post about how Ned is actually more of an Arryn than Stark. After all he was raised by Jon Arryn as a son, and the High as Honor pretty much describes him, not to mention we do know that Brandon and Lyanna were way more of a wolf than Ned was. In a way since I think among his children Sansa is a lot like him. (I hope it does not count as heresy and I won't be hated for this)

Since Ned was like a son to John, and Sansa is in a way lot like him, she could be John Arryns true heir, so the brid methaphore might refer to that, and she never will actually warg a bird. Her warg potential might will be a sleeping talent for her that never awakens.

So I think the bird is: a) will warg birds, b ) Lady of the Vale any other ideas?

[Elba the Intoner]

Silverin :agree: your thoughts above almost exactly match mine. :thumbsup: I don't like the idea of her warging Sandor because it's obvious from Bran's and Varamyr's chapters that it's wrong. Also, it's extremely difficult to warg a person as Varamyr's attempt with Thistle showed. It was very violent when Thistle tried to fight back and Bran is successful with Hodor mostly because Hodor is simpleminded and even then Hodor does not like it. I don't think Sandor is weak minded and so would not allow a warging even from Sansa, though I agree that if at any point it was possible it would have been during the time in her room after the BBB when he was drunk out of his skull and at one of his lowest points emotionally.

Also, your comments got me to thinking about something. It's true that Sansa's ties to the North and her Stark wolf nature get stronger and stronger as the books go on. Many people believe that the death of Lady symbolizes the death of Sansa as a lady. What's interesting though is that it is Sansa's chapters as Alayne, who is a bastard and therefore not a lady, which seem to me to be when her connections to her true Stark nature are at their strongest. It starts in the snow winterfell building scene which is highly symbolic in so many ways, but for me it's the chapter when she's coming down from the Eyrie and she hears the wind howling and it sounds like a wolf. I love that scene! That's also when her thoughts turn to Jon Snow and she thinks how wonderful it would be to see him again. Kittykatknits mentioned Tze's post on the connection between Jon and Sansa and I just found it so I'll link to it here. It's a great read. Anyway, he is her model for her bastard alterego as Alayne. Also, by the end of AFFC she is absolutely done with being married off for her claim, which is something that as a lady she would have had to accept.

I'm also of the belief that Sansa may eventually warg birds and I keep thinking about how Varys calls his spies "little birds" too. I would not be surprised if Sansa wargs a bird at some point and in this way learns about just how LF was involved in her father's death and her family's downfall. Her wolf nature will really come to the forefront then. Remember how she wanted to push Joff off the bridge after he made her look at her father's head on the spike?

Other ideas of flying animals that Sansa will arg are dragons. Sansa as dragonrider? I am more skeptical of that one though she is connected with flight and birds. Sansa as ruler in the Vale works though. I like that idea and it does seem to be where her story is heading.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

a) What do you mean, will she be a dragonrider then?

b ) ..So I think the bird is: a) will warg birds, b ) Lady of the Vale any other ideas?

c) ..Sansa warging Sandor..

Responses:

a) Yes, I think that she will be a dragonrider. You can read my reasons in this

thread

. (And so,we don´t abuse of the purpose of this thread, nor of my “English” :o neither.)

b ) Lady of the Valley..could be..for now.. (Reasons in this

post

with falcon included)

c) …Well ... Silver... I didn´t mean

exactly

Sansa "warging" Sandor - but certainly, in “the style” to which I referred, She could also fly ... :lol:

[juanml82]

So, 12-13 years old scared girl finds a ugly bad guy she secretly fancies, who doubles her age, scared and drunk. Bad Guy threatens to rape her, so the girl uses her hireto unkwown magical skills to control him and have him kiss her?

Now that's creepy. Was it her first kiss as well?

I'd say that would be an easy warging though. Both of them are filled with different emotions, Sandor is drunk and he desires Sansa, so he might not 'object' much if he feels the will to kiss her.

About her future, I'd be disappointed if she outwits LF by using magic. Maybe she learns and use it later, but she's being educated to preside a court (which is not the same as to rule), not as a fighter.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

She "kills" to LF with truth:

Are the tears of Lys (the truth of Lyssa´s death) Tears of Lys (the truth of Lyssa´s death) are those just with his power.

and the real death of LF comes...with:

TRUE WINE (Sandor) annihilates the wine of lie (Lf) FOR REAL ...

I think that Sansa and Sandor are complementary,

Their way, perfect for each other.

Like Ying & Yang (69)

[Rawien]

There have been many threads debating whether Sansa will ever warg another animal or not. The general belief is that if Sansa does it is likely to be a bird of some sort, largely based upon the little bird and the bird imagery that surrounds her character. Also, the House sigil for the Arryns is a hawk which is the family I think you are referring to, right?

I'd disagree though on the lacking pack instincts and being more trusting. I think all the Stark kids started out more trusting in the first book, Sansa was most certainly naive. But, she's now moved to the opposite end of the spectrum, she's not willing to put her trust in anyone. As to the pack instinct, I'd refer you to the snow WF scene. It pretty clearly aligns her with the North and winter. All her thoughts of her family are loving ones as well. Despite the naive behavior in Game, the pack instincts are there, it will just looks a little different. Same with all of the Stark kids.

Yes it was the Arryns hahah! I agree with what you're saying about Sansa's development. As we move away from Game she does become more of a skeptic and less trusting. I do think she is in some way separate from the other children though, she has a very different experience of life to the others. While they are all traipsing through the wild or freezing at the wall she is kept captive at court and then kept captive at the vale. Cersei at court refers to her as "Little Dove" as well, I feel that throughout the book the references to her as a bird are reflecting how she has been caged and captive while away from Winterfell by the Lannisters and Littlefinger. I think moving to the eyrie only extends that metaphor as it is a cage in its own right, it's exceptionally hard to get down from in winter and Lysa never left. I feel all the symbolism around Sansa points towards a feeling of captivity and is less to do with Sansa flying, (either out of the Moon Door or on a dragon.)

About her future, I'd be disappointed if she outwits LF by using magic. Maybe she learns and use it later, but she's being educated to preside a court (which is not the same as to rule), not as a fighter.

I feel that the whole caged bird captive at the eyrie train of thought points towards Sansa not necessarily "fighting" Littlefinger using magic, but I think perhaps she might use warging to escape from him. Whatever he's got in store for her I think she will eventually find that she can warg into birds to escape him, if only for a little while. I don't think Sansa could ever outwit Petyr, he's always one step ahead it seems. Hopefully Sansa can escape him some how.

I have to say I don't think Sansa would be able to warg people. It doesn't seem a very pleasant thing to have to do talking from Brans experience and I don't think she's cruel enough to do it. And to be honest, I don't even think she would be strong enough. Sansa isn't nearly as willful as Arya and has been heavily influenced by others in the book. I don't think she would have the willpower to be able to do it. Having said that if there were some extraordinary circumstance perhaps she could?

I don't think wanting a kiss is extraordinary enough though hahah! (:

[Kittykatknits]

I have to say I don't think Sansa would be able to warg people. It doesn't seem a very pleasant thing to have to do talking from Brans experience and I don't think she's cruel enough to do it. And to be honest, I don't even think she would be strong enough. Sansa isn't nearly as willful as Arya and has been heavily influenced by others in the book. I don't think she would have the willpower to be able to do it. Having said that if there were some extraordinary circumstance perhaps she could?

No, she can be just as wilfull as Arya. The act she probably gets the most castigation and hate for, going to Cersei, is pretty damn willful. I'd also add that Septa Mordane said she is just like Arya when it comes to taking care of her Wolf lady. Her taunting line about Robb bringing her Joff's head after already being beaten is another willful act.

Warging a human isn't just a matter of willpower either.

[Rawien]

No, she can be just as wilfull as Arya. The act she probably gets the most castigation and hate for, going to Cersei, is pretty damn willful. I'd also add that Septa Mordane said she is just like Arya when it comes to taking care of her Wolf lady. Her taunting line about Robb bringing her Joff's head after already being beaten is another willful act.

Warging a human isn't just a matter of willpower either.

I feel it is a matter of willpower, there is a struggle when sixskins tries to warg a human and bran only seems to be able to wag Hodor because he is "simple minded" as others have mentioned above. When I read the segments in the book on the matter I feel that, for warging humans only, a strong willpower is needed to subdue the person. Sansa is often manipulated by others and I just don't think she would be up to the task. Aside from the difficulty it does seem to be quite unpleasant and I don't think that she would be able to stomach doing it to someone. Even Bran doesn't like doing it to Hodor.

Sansa is a great character and she is complex, smart and does show alot of "Stark" characteristics. When I say she is less willful than Arya I simply mean that Arya would go further to escape and has done. Arya is a more wild, savage character than Sansa. Sansa does show willpower and bravery in the books but she is a very different creature to Arya.

[Bonifer Tasty]

She did have a wolf dream - someone may already have written of this. She was dreaming of Lady, who looked at her mournfully, and couldn't connect to her because of the barrier (death) between them. You could say (as Maester Luwin surely would have) that she was merely dreaming, and remembering her beloved wolf, but I think it was an abortive warging experience. Later, her fluid transition to the identity of Alayne (as Arya had become Arry, then Weasel, and so on), seems consistent with the warging personality type. I think Benjen was surely a warg, and at hte moment I think he warged Mormont's raven, although I may change my mind about this. If Ned was a warg, I can't believe he ever knew it - his POV chapters give no indication of any such self awareness, nor even of any accidental use of its insights. Ned had terrible insights.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

The novel is about the false identities, the impersonation and the search for true identity.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

And the free will, of course.

The Freedom.

[Rawien]

The novel is about the false identities, the impersonation and the search for true identity.

Of course on that line when Sansa does try "become" Alayne she really does become Alayne. Much more than Arya becomes any of her personas, (she even keeps Needle when she knows it is against the code of the FM). Sansas chapter names even change to be from the point of view of "Alayne" unlike Arya whos name never changes in the chapter titles despite her taking on many more personas.

As far as the original title "No Second Life for Sansa" goes I think maybe this points to Sansa truely becoming Alayne and leaving her Stark life behind. Perhaps this does point to her not getting her "second life" or escaping.

[Winter's Knight]

Of course on that line when Sansa does try "become" Alayne she really does become Alayne. Much more than Arya becomes any of her personas, (she even keeps Needle when she knows it is against the code of the FM). Sansas chapter names even change to be from the point of view of "Alayne" unlike Arya whos name never changes in the chapter titles despite her taking on many more personas.

Arya's chapter names do change: Cat of the Canals, The Blind Girl, The Ugly Little Girl. In contrast, Sansa only has two Alayne chapters.

[Rawien]

Arya's chapter names do change: Cat of the Canals, The Blind Girl, The Ugly Little Girl. In contrast, Sansa only has two Alayne chapters.

Whoopsie, I must have forgotten. I still feel like Sansa is willing to slip into the Alayne character far more than Arya, as Arya chooses to keep a piece of her Stark heritage.

Maybe I have it backwards and it just points to them both being wargs.

[Elba the Intoner]

Also, when Sansa comes down the mountain and has to cross that land saddle, it is in a POV that is titled Alayne, but interestingly, when she hears the wind howl she thinks as Sansa, that it sounds like a wolf and that is what gives her the courage to cross the land saddle with Sweetrobin. It's very important to note that it is Sansa thinking this, not Alayne, when she is reminded of a wolf. Her ties to her Stark heritage are growing stronger as the books go on and she has little things that keep bringing her back to her Stark identity just as Arya has needle. It's very subtle but it is there.

[Rawien]

Also, when Sansa comes down the mountain and has to cross that land saddle, it is in a POV that is titled Alayne, but interestingly, when she hears the wind howl she thinks as Sansa, that it sounds like a wolf and that is what gives her the courage to cross the land saddle with Sweetrobin. It's very important to note that it is Sansa thinking this, not Alayne, when she is reminded of a wolf. Her ties to her Stark heritage are growing stronger as the books go on and she has little things that keep bringing her back to her Stark identity just as Arya has needle. It's very subtle but it is there.

Oooh I like this, I will have to go back and read it I totally missed that. Thanks!

[Elba the Intoner]

You're welcome :) I missed it the first time around too. Sansa's chapters are very internal and subtle so it's easy to miss. There's also the bit when she's building snow Winterfell and she thinks that she is stronger within the walls of Winterfell, as another example. Looking at it more closely too, I've realized how much Arya and Sansa's character arcs parallel each other. They are both using alternate identities and are in danger of losing their true identities, they are both being taught how to lie, they are both under the influence of morally dubious mentors and in danger of going down a darker path, etc.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

her "second life" .......... escaping.

I see the opposite, I think she can´t be escaping forever.

Life has to be faced.

[Le.Chevalier.D'Eon]

I assume because Lady is dead, and she is the only POV Stark child without a wolf to Warg into, that this is somehow significant in terms of her ultimate fate. Sansa never even hints that she felt that kind of tie with Lady..Do you think that if lady had lived she would have had the gift the way the other Stark Children do? Is there any hint that Rob had wolf dreams as well?

She may never develop that talent. Her fate is to become one of the Silent Sisters.