Daenerys the Cheater

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

"Handed to her" ... "Sansa Stark would have done better" ...

Sometimes, I feel like I'm reading a different series of books from some of the other posters on these forums. I really do.

It's no exaggeration to say that the way they seem to remember the events of the series bears no more than the most vague, passing, twisted resemblance to what I read. It is, it really is ... it's as if I stumbled onto a forum filled with people who actually have been reading different books.

I feel that way all of the time. :unsure:

[David Selig]

You realize that you do pretty much the exact same thing with Jon, right? "Oh he's boring, he's so cliched, I want him to die, I hope he stays dead, he's an awful character, wah wah wah." Over and over again. If he ends up on top, I too will look forward to your impotent whining. :)

I am pretty sure I have at least 10 times less posts about Jon than you have about Dany (way less as percentage of total posts too). I have never taken my bashing to the extreme level of yours. I honestly can't remember the last time there was a thread related to Dany in any way and you didn't post at least a few times in it to bash her. And I've never said I'd burn my books or the series would be ruined, if Jon ends up as king. So no, it's not the same thing at all.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I am pretty sure I have at least 10 times less posts about Jon than you have about Dany (way less as percentage of total posts too). I have never taken my bashing to the extreme level of yours. I honestly can't remember the last time there was a thread related to Dany in any way and you didn't post at least a few times in it to bash her. And I've never said I'd burn my books or the series would be ruined, if Jon ends up as king. So no, it's not the same thing at all.

"Bashing" implies that criticism isn't valid. I think most if not all of my criticism of her is grounded in reality, if overly enthusiastic. Do I despise her, yes. But how is that any less valid than people who think she can do no wrong? Why is one extreme acceptable but not another?

[Lord Damian]

Dany is very deserving of the criticism against her. She is still very, very ignorant of her "saintly" father and wants to unleash fire and blood upon the Usurper's "Dogs". This is my big beef with her. Viserys is dead, therefore what he taught her is dead with him. She, Dany has had Jorah and now Barristan who on several occasions tried to educate her on this situation that has been her origins. She refuses to listen. She feels that she has this birthright to cross the sea and destroy all those who will not bend the knee to her. On top of that, she intended to, before he died, unleash her Raping husband, Drogo and the boys all over Westeros Society. She is bad news, a plague. Her arrogance is simply the icing on top.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Dany is very deserving of the criticism against her. She is still very, very ignorant of her "saintly" father and wants to unleash fire and blood upon the Usurper's "Dogs". This is my big beef with her. Viserys is dead, therefore what he taught her is dead with him. She, Dany has had Jorah and now Barristan who on several occasions tried to educate her on this situation that has been her origins. She refuses to listen. She feels that she has this birthright to cross the sea and destroy all those who will not bend the knee to her. On top of that, she intended to, before he died, unleash her Raping husband, Drogo and the boys all over Westeros Society. She is bad news, a plague. Her arrogance is simply the icing on top.

A female Stannis.

[Milcov]

I completely agree. For instance, Robb is my favorite character. But he fucked up, and he died for it.

Jon's my second favorite. In order to survive, he had to grow up years beyond his age, make decisions that hurt him and people around him, and become quite morally grey. Hell, by the end of ADWD it's clear that all of that still isn't guaranteeing his life. It just pisses me off. I watch my favorite characters suffer, and I deal with it because the realism of it is why I love ASOIAF so much. Dany's entire storyline just cheapens it.

So Dany hasn't died for it, her blunder wasn't as big as Robb's. And in fact seeing as everyone is so quick to criticise Dany for Quentyn and Daario lets consider Robb a bit. He broke his political marriage contract, Dany didn't. May be a reason why Dany is alive and Robb isn't. Dany's life is far from guaranteed as well, she's facing a Dothraki Khalasar led by a Khal who doesn't like her. And don't for a second pretend that Dany didn't grow up as much as Jon, hell Jon was better prepared for joining the Nights Watch than Dany was for becoming a wife to a mad barbarian and then Khaleesi and Queen in her own right. She aged as much as anyone, maybe bar Arya.

Here here! I absolutely cannot stand Dany's self entitlement attitude, nor the fact that everything gets handed to her without much effort on her part. She's the Goku of the Westeros universe. Characters that are actually fighting for noble and heroic deeds, such as Robb, trying to avenge his father and free the north, has to deal with reality and that things aren't easy and people can't be trusted. Dany gets to continue to act like a spoiled rotten teenage girl with entitlement issues, and have all these men that just flock to her wih undying love and loyalty, protect her from all the evils of the world. Spits to that.

Everyone (except Davos) is self entitled, live with it or don't read ASOIAF. Robb is fighting to avenge his father and 'free the North', Dany is fighting for her house and to 'reclaim her birthright'. Sounds pretty similar to me, at least hold an equal standard. Undying loyalty? One was a treacherous informant, another is Illyio a man of very dubious loyalty, Drogo came very close to raping her, Viserys was a monster of Joffrey proportions, Hizdahr, Pyat and Xharo all tried to kill her/declare war on her. And I doubt Tyrion and Victarion are arriving for selfless love either. Quit being ridiculous.

Dany is very deserving of the criticism against her. She is still very, very ignorant of her "saintly" father and wants to unleash fire and blood upon the Usurper's "Dogs". This is my big beef with her. Viserys is dead, therefore what he taught her is dead with him. She, Dany has had Jorah and now Barristan who on several occasions tried to educate her on this situation that has been her origins. She refuses to listen. She feels that she has this birthright to cross the sea and destroy all those who will not bend the knee to her. On top of that, she intended to, before he died, unleash her Raping husband, Drogo and the boys all over Westeros Society. She is bad news, a plague. Her arrogance is simply the icing on top.

Eddard is forgiving of Robert, Catelyn is forgiving of Eddard, is it surprising that Dany shows some loyalty to her father? A father of whom nearly all she heard was greatness from Viserys. She has been in total ignorance all her life about her father and the truth of Eddard and the 'usurper's dogs' it'd be weird if she suddenly ignored all she knew her entire life on the word of two men (one who hates Eddard anyway). Stannis feels he has a birthright, as did Joffrey, Robb feels it to the North etc. everyone is entitled it's not exclusive to Dany. She intended to use Drogo to gain Westeros, as did Illyrio and Varys. The Brave Companions have been used by both the Lannisters and the North, none of the criticism is really that genuine or exclusive to her.

[CurP]

Just a thought regarding initial post....

Daenerys is a freaking Ta'veren

[themockingbird]

Sellsword and Halfhand hit on a bunch of points I thought about while reading this.

First, I'll preface this with I agree with the OP. I also read the books in just a semester's time. Dany's glaring advantage and ridiculous luck has set up an inevitability that irritates me to a point of just wishing I could jump right into the books and kill her myself. The way I see it, the major story is taking place in Westeros. 99.9999% of our POVs are occupied with Westeros; 85% of them don't even know Dany exists (caution statistics not accurate). I have invested thousands of more pages into much more interesting and much more morally ambiguous characters for her to just ride in and take over Westeros. I'd be pissed for her to just up and leave her post as Queen in the slave cities and abandoned her new responsibilities and new peoples. I agree with almost your entire list. Her magical advantage is too absurd for the story right now, and the only way I will accept it is if other characters, even the big bad meanies, get some kind of magical power/weapon as well.

That being said, she is painted like a Mary Sue, as Sellsword says, but Martin has spoken how he is trying to flip tropes of fantasy with this series. My hope, like Qhorin's, is that he will subvert Dany's character-- for my own sanity and avoidance of cognitive dissonance. The White cloaks are really curropt, but the band of criminals dressed in black have the true honor. Ravens, painted as evil or ill omen birds, have a good serving purpose in this series. The "Wildlings" are actually a free people and the slave states are run better than the Seven Kingdoms.Ned Stark died ( I should have started with this and left it there). There's tons of tropes here that flip. Dany, as the unlikely hero who embarks on an epic journey to save the world, is just literary vomit for this story. For her to fail in some way is more the style for this series.I like the title of the "final" book A Dream of Spring. It says that there's reason to dream of new beginings, but there's not enough reason to be certain. That's the ending I want to see from this series. I want to walk away from this story knowing that it's not fully resolved.

Anyways, we all get our opinion; there's no facts we have to live by in fiction -- you can like it, like most of it, or hate it. That's the beauty of being able to think for yourself. I'm just happy others out there are as "crazy" as me in the eyes of the majority. I think there may be a difference of opinion between those who have been reading since the 90s v. those who have been reading since well, less than a year agoish (caution: conclusion based solely on generalizations and experience with others). I'll be looking to see if that really is the trend. Until then, Long live Littlefinger, Arya, and Stannis -- now that's a three headed dragon! ;)

[PatrickStormborn]

Daenerys... a Mary Sue... There are legitimate criticisms of her character -- that is not one of them. And, if you read this thread (or re-read the books), I'm sure you'll find plenty of reasons to not like her. Therefore she's not a Mary Sue. It's that simple. :)

And I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks she should just bow down and love Ned Stark and hate her evil, mad, crazy father is being ridiculous. Because of Ned, Robert, Tywin, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully, Daenerys grew up living with an insane brother who wanted to rape her. But at least the Westerosi nobles were safe under the great reign of Robert Baratheon, rite?!?!?!?!?! Elia of Dorne and Cersei Lannister are particularly grateful for Robert's Rebellion, I can assure you.

Here here! I absolutely cannot stand Dany's self entitlement attitude, nor the fact that everything gets handed to her without much effort on her part. She's the Goku of the Westeros universe. Characters that are actually fighting for noble and heroic deeds, such as Robb, trying to avenge his father and free the north, has to deal with reality and that things aren't easy and people can't be trusted. Dany gets to continue to act like a spoiled rotten teenage girl with entitlement issues, and have all these men that just flock to her wih undying love and loyalty, protect her from all the evils of the world. Spits to that.

1. How is fighting to "avenge his father" noble or heroic? It's idiotic, as Catelyn pointed out.

2. He tried to free the North, yes, just like Dany freed the slaves.

[Lyanna Stark]

Daenerys... a Mary Sue... There are legitimate criticisms of her character -- that is not one of them. And, if you read this thread (or re-read the books), I'm sure you'll find plenty of reasons to not like her. Therefore she's not a Mary Sue. It's that simple. :)

People get tripped up by the POVs as well. Once we start seeing Dany from multiple POVs she gets much more three dimensional and interesting, despite Mereen not being the most exciting place on the planet. It's obvious Dany is beautiful, charismatic and has a lot of spunk and a lot of good intentions. However, she is too inexperienced to think outside the box.

Comparing it to say, the training Jon has received or the one Sansa is receiving, or the mistakes Tyrion has already made, it's obvious Dany is a flawed character who's going to face some serious problems on her way to her goal. Her current goal is also to sit the Iron Throne, but it is arguable that this will be the End Game.

Regarding the Mary Sue label in particular, I think people toss that out way too easily without knowing what it really means. Wiki has a good abbreviated description: A Mary Sue is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for the author or reader.

Hence why "Mary Sue" does not work at all for Dany. A lot of people blaming her for being a Mary Sue also lament how stupid she is and what dumb decisions she makes. Well, then she's making dumb decisions, but she ain't a Sue for it. It's also odd to think of Dany as wish fulfilment*** for the reader, since so far she's had a pretty shitty and not exactly jolly life, and ruling Mereen seems like not a whole lot of fun on any level.

*** unless you count the gratuitous lesbian scene

[Lyanna Stark]

That being said, she is painted like a Mary Sue, as Sellsword says, but Martin has spoken how he is trying to flip tropes of fantasy with this series. My hope, like Qhorin's, is that he will subvert Dany's character-- for my own sanity and avoidance of cognitive dissonance. The White cloaks are really curropt, but the band of criminals dressed in black have the true honor.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. The problem with the Kingsguard "corruption" is less than a problem with the Kingsguard the Idea. As Jaime Lannister can tell you: sure, they are there to protect the king, but who protects the Queen or the Realm from the King? Jaime did protect the Realm, but look what people think of him. When oaths clash, which do you follow? This is illustrated again with Sandor Clegane vs Joffrey and Jaime again vs his sister, who wants to have Sansa's head.

The Nights Watch as an organisation also has issues. A lot of them wanted to let the wildlings stay on the north side of the wall to starve and die, how honourable is that? It's gruesome and inhuman, but in some lights, it is also following their oath as they are guarding the Realm of Men. Against what, it doesn't say.

Dany's and Jon's characters are the "purest" hero characters in ASOIAF, but that doesn't make them non-subversive. It's bound to be less than with some of the other characters, but it's obvious Dany who people claim is a Mary Sue, has some serious issues that she needs to sort out, with herself as with others. Jon has just managed to get himself murdered by way of failing to be a communicative and persuasive boss.

Jon isn't perfect lily white either. He's very, very tempted to take Stannis up on his offer of Winterfell, a lordship and Val, he goes almost barmy when he hears about Arya, his treatment of Gilly when he sends her off with Sam is pretty dreadful (and he knows it). There are more examples, but these are things I could think of in like 2 minutes.

Dany also knows her father was mad. She knows Viserys was definitely not 100% there either, but she refuses to really acknowledge the full implications of that. Partly because nobody has owned up and told her (Jorah and Barristan both avoid to really spill the beans, which is definitely made so on purpose) and partly because it takes a lot of bravery to face up to that you might be going crazy. Not to mention, how do you tell?

[Noimporta]

Hence why "Mary Sue" does not work at all for Dany. A lot of people blaming her for being a Mary Sue also lament how stupid she is and what dumb decisions she makes. Well, then she's making dumb decisions, but she ain't a Sue for it. It's also odd to think of Dany as wish fulfilment*** for the reader, since so far she's had a pretty shitty and not exactly jolly life, and ruling Mereen seems like not a whole lot of fun on any level.

First of all, I guess I should preface this post with the now probably unconvincing "I don't agree with most of the criticism raised at Dany by this point but...".

Anyway, while I don't think she's a Mary Sue, I don't agree that there is necessarily a strong contradiction in the "I hate what she does" and the "she's a Mary Sue" arguments. Whether her actions are wrong/stupid or not are not as relevant for the MS denomination as whether the story wants us to perceive them as such. Here, we run into the problem of the POV system: Dany's obviously going to think she's right in most cases, and we're seeing the events through her eyes, making it hard to discern the author's intent. It doesn't help that the only POVs that interact with her are Westeros' Favourite Yes Man and a naive young fool who shares a whole 3 pages with her. I do think that Gurm's did this deliberately to play with our perception, but this is my own opinion, and I don't really have a lot to show for it, and it is kind of fishy when Tyrion pulls a whole "Dany Is Awesome" speech off the bat when two chapters ago he didn't even know who she was.

[Barty]

Daenerys... a Mary Sue... There are legitimate criticisms of her character -- that is not one of them. And, if you read this thread (or re-read the books), I'm sure you'll find plenty of reasons to not like her. Therefore she's not a Mary Sue. It's that simple. :)

And I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks she should just bow down and love Ned Stark and hate her evil, mad, crazy father is being ridiculous. Because of Ned, Robert, Tywin, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully, Daenerys grew up living with an insane brother who wanted to rape her. But at least the Westerosi nobles were safe under the great reign of Robert Baratheon, rite?!?!?!?!?! Elia of Dorne and Cersei Lannister are particularly grateful for Robert's Rebellion, I can assure you.

think about it in this way - if robert had not rebelled Daenerys would have had to marry that said brother.

1. How is fighting to "avenge his father" noble or heroic? It's idiotic, as Catelyn pointed out.

2. He tried to free the North, yes, just like Dany freed the slaves.

And what option did robb have?? bow down and swear fealty to Joffrey - his father's murderer?? And Danny freeing the slaves can in no way be compared to robb freeing the north - first of all danny didnt rule the slaver cities - the north was ruled by robb.

Also danny was a hypocrite - she wanted to kill all slavers but when the slaves she'd freed turned into slavers themselves she didnt care. Nor did she care about Jorah Mormont's slaver record.

[Eggplant Wizard]

Dany was a silly girl in the last book. Now she should come into her own as a woman. I have to admit I didn't like any of her chapters in the last book but we should see some character development this coming book.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

To the OP:

You could make a similar list for any character currently alive. Tyrion for example has had a ton of lucky breaks especially in the first book. Yes, his cleverness and ingenuity helped in a few cases, but a lot of times it was luck pure and simple, or a convenient intervention by a higher power (e.g. Varys, just like with Dany). The point is if you life in f-ing Westeros, you have to be pretty damn lucky to survive and it helps to have someone watching your back.

I general don't see the point in spending time hating characters because they happen to survive when others didnt. Stop raising your blood pressure over goddamn fictional characters. If you want to dislike dany that's fine but Cmon People. Dislike her for what she actually does / is, not for some bizarre meta reason that isn't the "fault" of the character.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany was a silly girl in the last book. Now she should come into her own as a woman. I have to admit I didn't like any of her chapters in the last book but we should see some character development this coming book.

As much as I agree that ADWD-Dany regressed from ASOS-Dany, there was still character development there. By the end of the novel she's realised two things: she needs to use fire and blood to hold her kingdom, and that "to go forward, I must go back". It's a big step-up from "if I look back I am lost".

[themockingbird]

To the OP:

You could make a similar list for any character currently alive. Tyrion for example has had a ton of lucky breaks especially in the first book. The point is if you life in f-ing Westeros, you have to be pretty damn lucky to survive and it helps to have someone watching your back.

I general don't see the point in spending time hating characters because they happen to survive when others didnt. Stop raising your blood pressure over goddamn fictional characters. If you want to dislike dany that's fine but Cmon People. Dislike her for what she actually does / is, not for some bizarre meta reason that isn't the "fault" of the character.

I think what the OP was getting at was that Dany's "lucky breaks" or "cheats" are just so fantastically beyond anyone else's, it's not even fair. Tyrion's breaks were believable. The worst of his situations happened to have a greedy sob (who isn't in this series?) right there to take a Lannister up on his debts. Anyways, I think that's what the OP was getting at. Everyone else does get lucky from time to time, Dany just gets ridiculous magic on her side that no one else has -- that Bran is just beginning to learn.

As for the Meta stuff, that affects the likability of the character. It may not be her fault, but it's not bizarre to think people's perception of a character are changed by the events they experience. Every chapter I see that starts with her name, I think, "oh god, what amazing things are going to happen for her this time just at the end of some impossible situation." The coincidences that go her way are not realistic for me. That's my opinion, so whatever. Others have their own.

As for all the Mary Sue talk about her, I think she's painted as one, not actually one. If you had to pick one character that stands out to meet that definition it's going to be her.

In the end, it just feels like a waste to have her ever reach her goal of sitting the Iron Throne. She doesn't deserve it anymore than the next person fighting for it, and I much rather see anyone of the other characters that I have invested more time reading about and getting to know than her. I'd be fine to see her come in and wreak some havoc and make an alliance with someone, but in the end, I don't want her ass anywhere near those blades.

That's my opinion, it seems I've finally found others that hate her as much as I do, that's cool. Either way, the series is still enjoyable.

[BabyMeraxes]

Whenever I hear the phrase Mary Sue, I just want to rip something's throat out with my teeth. That must be the lamest, laziest, most horrifyingly nerdy description I have ever heard in my entire life. My god, can fan fiction culture just implode on itself? Is Peggy Olsen a Mary Sue? Is Lisa Simpson? What about Galadriel or Barbara Gordon or C.J Craig? Mary Sue, I can't fucking even.

[Castel]

Whenever I hear the phrase Mary Sue, I just want to rip something's throat out with my teeth. That must be the lamest, laziest, most horrifyingly nerdy description I have ever heard in my entire life. My god, can fan fiction culture just implode on itself? Is Peggy Olsen a Mary Sue? Is Lisa Simpson? What about Galadriel or Barbara Gordon or C.J Craig? Mary Sue, I can't fucking even.

If these are the people you consider Mary Sues then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the term means.

And what option did robb have?? bow down and swear fealty to Joffrey - his father's murderer?? And Danny freeing the slaves can in no way be compared to robb freeing the north - first of all danny didnt rule the slaver cities - the north was ruled by robb.

Also danny was a hypocrite - she wanted to kill all slavers but when the slaves she'd freed turned into slavers themselves she didnt care. Nor did she care about Jorah Mormont's slaver record.

Why yes, his father did try to commit treason, as far as he knew. It was far better than going to war and refusing to back down as the hand closed around his neck.

[Noimporta]

Is Peggy Olsen a Mary Sue?

No

Is Lisa Simpson?

Depends on the season.

What about Galadriel or Barbara Gordon or C.J Craig?

No, No and No idea who that is.

But yes, Mary Sue isn't a term to be casually thrown around. Mostly because it was originally devised as a descriptor of fanfiction characters, and as such runs with several issues when one attempts to apply it to established characters from a piece of fiction, even when they "fit the bill" in a number of aspects.