Daenerys the Cheater

[eyeheartsansa]

I think the best answer to Kittyhat's question is, "There is no such passage." The charge that Dany is in Meereen simply to practice ruling is without merit. There are legitimate criticisms of Daenerys; this isn't one of them.

"My children need time to heal and learn; my dragons need time to grow and test their wings. I need the same."

That sounds pretty clear to me. She wants to heal, learn, grow and test her wings in Mereen. I guess I have mixed feelings about this; she knows is inexperienced at ruling, and yet life and welfare of the city depends on this. But she also knows that it's a mess she's directly responsible for, and if she leaves, she'd be leaving another Astapor in her wake.

We can and do criticize her for creating this mess in the first place, but IMO she's to be admired for taking responsibility.

[Castel]

I don't think you get what s/he is saying at all.

The term Mary Sue is used as a lazy way to undermine characters when no actual criticism can be managed by the attacker. In hp fandom, Ginny was regularly called a Mary sue, because Harry/hermione fans hated her for basically no reason other than that she was Harry's love interest.

The term is even sillier in Danys case since she's not flawless at all and makes many mistakes and dubiously moral descisions for which she suffers - especially in adwd.

Hm, maybe. I was looking at this:

Whenever I hear the phrase Mary Sue, I just want to rip something's throat out with my teeth. That must be the lamest, laziest, most horrifyingly nerdy description I have ever heard in my entire life. My god, can fan fiction culture just implode on itself? Is Peggy Olsen a Mary Sue? Is Lisa Simpson? What about Galadriel or Barbara Gordon or C.J Craig? Mary Sue, I can't fucking even.

And it seemed to be against fanfiction in general. Perhaps I was wrong. But it gets to me when people jump on others for being nerdy or being a part of some subculture.

If I was wrong you have my apologies.

Fanfiction is a breeding ground for some terrible, terrible writing. Every now and then something gold comes up.. but it's alot of wasted effort since it's just piggybacking on someone else's universe. It's an amusing hobby and maybe ok for shits and giggles, but anyone who is serious about creative writing needs to come up with their own stuff.

And? I never claimed otherwise. Some people like to write in other people's universes, it's not a matter of them wanting to become writers so much as having a hobby.

[eyeheartsansa]

And? I never claimed otherwise. Some people like to write in other people's universes, it's not a matter of them wanting to become writers so much as having a hobby.

No worries; it was either you or someone else who asked 'what's wrong with fan fiction,' and that was me weighing in. It's a free country; write/read/share all the fanfic you want. No point in derailing the topic any further.

[Phat Walda]

Asha and Arya have masculine qualities. If someone hates ALL of the feminine female characters and only likes female characters who have male characteristics, then I believe they're probably somewhat misogynistic.

I think saying that being a woman who is a badass fighter has "male characteristics" might be a little misogynistic. Women can be badasses. Without men playing into it at all.

[Queen Cersei I]


Tyrion:

1. Doesn't get killed at birth. (Even more of a miracle if Tywin actually thought he was Aerys son and not his.)
2. Taken hostage in the Eyrie, but manages to convince a sellsword to change sides.
3. Convinces the murderous mountain clans to follow him all the way to his father's camp. (these are the same clans who attacked first and asked questions later on his previous encounter with them).
4. Not dying at the Battle of the Green Ford despite having poor fitting armour and never having been in battle before.
5. Becomes a power house fighter during the battle of Black Water.
6. Surviving Mandon Moore's attack / assassination attempt.
7. Escapes King's Landing after his trial due to Jaime and Varys.
8. Doesn't get greyscale despite contact from one of the stone men and ingesting river water.
9. Being saved from the river.
10. Escapes being killed by Penny.
11. Escapes slavery.
12. Despite having no funds, convinces the Second Sons to work for him on the promise of money he doesn't have when the other option for Ben Brown Plumm was taking him to Cersei for a guaranteed Lordship.



Tyrion is also a highly flawed ruler during his stint as Hand during ACOK. However, in stark opposition to Danerys, Tyrion is never, ever really held responsible for his numerous mistakes as a leader.

The thing that kills me about Tyrion is that he almost never gets truly held responsible for his idiotic deeds and slip ups while ruling.

Tyrion, in his spot as hand at King's Landing, makes numerous generalized mistakes, all of which are glossed over as his brilliance, "badassery,"decency, and compassion are endlessly vaunted.

Tyrion:


--Is guilty of truly horrible PR. Though Cersei is endlessly held as idiotic for this mistake in AFFC, Tyrion actually commits the exact same error in ACOK and ASOS. He never tries to get out there and interact with the people, and neglects to take the crucial step of creating a positive, likeable public image. (I think this would have been very possible, despite his dwarfism, if he would have taken the right steps.) He alienates the people by doing things like bringing in the violent, uncouth mountain clans that terrorized Kings Landing, and led to numerous murders and violent acts that the people blamed him for. He acts (it would appear, if one steps back and views his actions from the outside, rather than taking it for granted that we know what's going on in his head, and that he is "good") haughty and superior rather than coming across as “a friend of the people.”

Taking all this into account, it is no surprise that everyone takes a dislike to him, and blames him for the famine and for controlling Joffrey. The places where Tyrion is shocked to learn that the people of kings landing blame him for the famine and when he is filled with self righteous hatred when they laugh at him at his trial are masterpieces of manipulation-- both make the reader, unambiguously, feel a deep pity for Tyrion, and see the smallfolk as ungrateful, cruel, and foolish.

I've heard numerous people note this, going on about the resident's of kings landings stupidity, ingratitude, ect. It is implied that these people hate Tyrion simply because Tyrion is a dwarf. However, IMO, they merely hate him because, through his own actions, he has alienated the people and made himself the perfect scapegoat. If Tyrion would have tried to interact with the people, did public good works for them, not brought on a bunch of barbarians to wreak havoc amongst their city, and somehow made his opposition to his nephew and championing of the rights of the smallfolk clear in some subtle way on a few occasions, he could have, I genuinely believe, earned the affection of the smallfolk.

However, as things happened, all the common people saw was a haughty man who brought a bunch of murdering savages into kings landing for selfish purposes and then failed to control them; was clearly a part of the destructive, untrustworthy Lannister family; employed and kept company with fierce savage killers like Bronn; committed several acts of gratuitous and off putting violence, including his unnecessarily violent "questioning" of old Maester pycelle (which the tv series sanitized, but which, in the books, featured Tyrion having three men hold Pycelle down and order one to hold a knife to Pycelles genitals, threatening to cut it off); failed to interact with or reach out to the smallfolk or express concern for them in any apparent way; and who generally, by all appearances, seemed allied with Joffrey.

Given all that, it is not surprising that the smallfolk assumed that Tyrion was allied with Joffrey. And given Joffrey's young age and the nature of some of Tyrion's violent, publically known acts, it is not surprising that the people assumed that Tyrion was the one controlling Joffrey, "playing on the pipes as the crown prince danced."

Clearly, Tyrion is guilty of lousy PR, here. Perhaps even more so than Cersei.

-- Is responsible for the mountain clans murdering numerous people, and wreaking havoc on Kings Landing.

-- Alienated and earned the enmity of Joffrey at every turn, instead of trying to manipulate this clearly dumb and easily led boy. (LF found out how to control the boy in one night; Tyrion cannot figure out to control him in, what, like, 2 years?) Whether it is due to Tyrion's pride or his arrogance or his hatred for and vendetta against Cersei that seemed to serve as a guiding force in AGOT and ASOS he failed her. Big time.

-- Openly threatening Joffrey, the all-powerful crown prince, and making his hatred for the boy well known on what felt like every possible occasion. Readers, it felt like, are encouraged to cheer for Tyrion "putting that douche bag Joffrey in his place" and see Tyrion as brilliant and awesome. However, the fact is that Tyrion both earned the crowned kings rage and, worse, made it all too easy for everyone to later believe that Tyrion had murdered the boy. I'm sorry, but given lines like the following: "Joffrey has earned himself a dagger, don't you think?", I don't think that Cersei and Tywin's assumption that Tyrion was guilty was based upon unfair persecution of Tyrion because of his dwarfism. It was simply because, due to his own idiotic words and actions, Tyrion looks as guilty as sin.

--Wasted time on personal, selfish issues that should have been spent doing his real job. Bringing Shae to Kings Landing because he wanted to defy daddy and get laid is an action that does not receive nearly enough criticism. Far worse than anything Dany did with Daario. It led Tyrion to waste a bunch of time scheming and hiding Shae when he should have been doing his job.

--Let his immature hatred and rivalry with Cersei get in the way of being a wise and mature leader. The reader is encouraged to sympathize and root for Tyrion throughout the duration of this. I, however, simply thought Tyrion and Cersei were both being childish idiots.

[James Arryn]

Tyrion is also a highly flawed ruler during his stint as Hand during ACOK. However, in stark opposition to Danerys, Tyrion is never, ever really held responsible for his numerous mistakes as a leader.

The thing that kills me about Tyrion is that he almost never gets truly held responsible for his idiotic deeds and slip ups while ruling. .

You mean other than the whole mutilated/betrayed by everyone/framed for murder/condemned to death/exiled/enslaved thing, right?

[Queen Cersei I]

You mean other than the whole mutilated/betrayed by everyone/framed for murder/condemned to death/exiled/enslaved thing, right?

Actually, this response in itself is a perfect reflection of the attitude I'm talking about.

And I was speaking of the reaction of readers to Tyrion vs. Dany, not the actions of the characters in the story. Dany is regularly condemned in hate threads for her "stupidity" each and every week-- people don't just blame her for her leadership mistakes, they hate her for them. Meanwhile, Tyrion is held as wise and a great leader, and complaints about him are generally limited to his dull chapters and self-pitying attitude in the latest bit. Readers seldom, if ever, mention his mistakes while ruling or even acknowledge that he made any; he is generally held to be "betrayed by everyone"; a good man victimized by those around him, as you portray him here.

I'd say that the widespread, vitriolic hatred and contempt for Danerys due to the mistakes she made while ruling vs. the complete and utter refusal of most readers to actually hold Tyrion responsible for his many mistakes is a dichotomy that is troubling and worth further examination, yes.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

and somehow made his opposition to his nephew and championing of the rights of the smallfolk clear in some subtle way on a few occasions, he could have, I genuinely believe, earned the affection of the smallfolk.

...

Openly threatening Joffrey, the all-powerful crown prince, and making his hatred for the boy well known on what felt like every possible occasion.

Only took you a couple of paragraphs to contradict yourself.

[Milcov]

Danny, was getting a trump card after a trump card and all Danny had to do is just point where these cards should be used. Asides from SEX and passing of some judgements at Meeren she did not really do that much... oh yeah, and saying Dracarys to solve problems.

Why the emphasis on sex? Please tell me you aren't using her sex life against her. Even the whiter than white knight Barristan finds nothing wrong with it (besides Daario himself). A trump card such as a FM coin and a Valyrian phrase such as Valar Morghulis. Dany earns some of what she gets, just because she isn't completely self-sufficient and a polymath at the age of 16 doesn't mean she's a useless girl who gets everything given to her.

[David Selig]

Yeah, Tyrion made plenty of mistakes during his time as a Hand .Of course, in typical Tyrion fashion he refused to admit most of them even to himself and thinks the only reason people in the city disliked him is because he is a dwarf. In a way he's lucky his only comparison as a Hand is Ned "No clue about politics or common sense" Stark, and compared to him it's pretty easy to look competent.

[Queen Cersei I]

Only took you a couple of paragraphs to contradict yourself.

I didn't. He said rude stuff to, embarrassed, and made overt threats to Joffrey in private. He never made a public show of his opposition to the boy.

In politics, maintaining a public image is crucial. Tyrion failed to do that. As I noted, he made it all too easy for the small folk to see him as the bad guy. And make him a scapegoat.

The smallfolk regarded Tyrion as a wicked piper who played to a tune and made Joffrey dance not because they were wicked and depraved, but because to an outside observer, this is what it looked like.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I didn't. He said rude stuff to, embarrassed, and made overt threats to Joffrey in private. He never made a public show of his opposition to the boy.

So it wasn't well known then. It was just in private.

[Castel]

Yeah, Tyrion made plenty of mistakes during his time as a Hand .Of course, in typical Tyrion fashion he refused to admit most of them even to himself and thinks the only reason people in the city disliked him is because he is a dwarf. In a way he's lucky his only comparison as a Hand is Ned "No clue about politics or common sense" Stark, and compared to him it's pretty easy to look competent.

Which was kinda true? I mean Tyrion helped the city when he could, with food and the like. Yet people still hated him. He was nowhere near as cruel as Joff yet people still hated him. This is a very superstitious culture, and it's easier to blame the cursed dwarf than the king. He was condemned pretty early on and there was little to be done about it since y'know, he had to worry about survival first and foremost.

Not to mention that gaining the love of the people wouldn't have made a lick of difference.

Beating on Joff though, that was plain dumb. But we always knew he had issues with control.

The difference is Tyrion was doing what he was doing to save his and his people's lives and it was done with open eyes. Dany went half cocked into a terrible situation and then floundered. refusing to do what was necessary to get out and wondering how she got herself there. In short, Dany gets a lot more hate than Tyrion for the same reason there are Ned Stark hate threads, she was dumb. You can hate both, but it's harder for some reason who played the game and lost than someone who went out of their way to do dumb things.

[Queen Cersei I]

So it wasn't well known then. It was just in private.

It was well known by those around him like the kingsguard and many courtiers, all of whom testified at the trial without hesitation to Tyrioin's hatred for joff.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

It was well known by those around him like the kingsguard and many courtiers, all of whom testified at the trial without hesitation to Tyrioin's hatred for joff.

How do you imagine the smallfolk found out about Tyrion's treatment of Pycelle while also not finding anything out about Tyrion's hatred for Joffrey? Seems to me both things took place in the Red Keep, gossip for kingsguard and courtiers. You say the smallfolk were off-put by the former while completely unaware of the latter. How?

[Phat Walda]

I feel like there is definitely an element to the "everyone hated Tyrion because he was a dwarf" argument that I could agree with. I don't want to absolve him of all the shitty things he did, or the stupid decisions he made, but there's a reason Littlefinger told Catelyn that Tyrion was the one who tried to kill Bran: for soem reason he thought she would find him the most believable. Why is that, do you think?

[James Arryn]

I feel like there is definitely an element to the "everyone hated Tyrion because he was a dwarf" argument that I could agree with. I don't want to absolve him of all the shitty things he did, or the stupid decisions he made, but there's a reason Littlefinger told Catelyn that Tyrion was the one who tried to kill Bran: for soem reason he thought she would find him the most believable. Why is that, do you think?

Yeah, to a degree I've always sort of lined him up with RIchard III, in terms of the distinction between real life historical figure and public perception of deformed monster.

Of course I'm a guy, the same sin which is true of Richard III, Henry IV, AND Shakespeare, so we're probably all missing the point, or unconsciously making it.

[Parwan]

From Parwan

I think the best answer to Kittyhat's question is, "There is no such passage." The charge that Dany is in Meereen simply to practice ruling is without merit. There are legitimate criticisms of Daenerys; this isn't one of them.

"My children need time to heal and learn; my dragons need time to grow and test their wings. I need the same."

That sounds pretty clear to me. She wants to heal, learn, grow and test her wings in Mereen. I guess I have mixed feelings about this; she knows is inexperienced at ruling, and yet life and welfare of the city depends on this. But she also knows that it's a mess she's directly responsible for, and if she leaves, she'd be leaving another Astapor in her wake.

We can and do criticize her for creating this mess in the first place, but IMO she's to be admired for taking responsibility.

The quote seems clear to me also. Let's take it at face value: Dany states that she has needs and that her dragons and her children have needs. She's not saying her dragons and her children are going to use Meereen as some kind of test case or preparation for Westeros. She's also not saying that she's going to do that. A queen who was simply using Meereen might say exactly what Dany says here. A queen who mostly wanted to improve her rule over Meereen, but also intended to move on later, might say exactly what Dany says here. A queen who thinks her stay in Meereen will be very long, even permanent, might say exactly what Dany says here. Dragons need time to test their wings. Queens often need rest and healing, as well as testing metaphoric wings. This says nothing about what the resting, healing, and testing will be used for, nor what actions will take place during and after the healing, nor what place(s) and people will benefit by better rule and better flying.

[Queen Cersei I]

How do you imagine the smallfolk found out about Tyrion's treatment of Pycelle while also not finding anything out about Tyrion's hatred for Joffrey?

It is clearly stated that one of the things the smallolk hold against Tyrion is that he "kidnapped and tortured poor, kindly Maester Pycelle." Later it is noted that these same people believe that "The twisted monkey demon (Tyrion) plays on the pipes and makes the prince dance."**This implies that the people thought Tyrion was in collusion with Joffrey; and held him responsible for Joff's bad deeds.

How do you imagine the smallfolk found out about Tyrion's treatment of Pycelle while also not finding anything out about Tyrion's hatred for Joffrey? Seems to me both things took place in the Red Keep,

You are wrong. The torturing of Pycelle clearly did not take "place in the Red Keep." It took place in a tavern room that Pycelle had rented with a prostitute. Not sure where you're getting your facts from, there.

The act certainly could have reached "courtiers and gold cloaks" through gossip, but nevertheless, your statement that "seems to me both things took place in the Red Keep" is utterly incorrect.

How do you imagine the smallfolk found out about Tyrion's treatment of Pycelle while also not finding anything out about Tyrion's hatred for Joffrey? Seems to me both things took place in the Red Keep, gossip for kingsguard and courtiers. You say the smallfolk were off-put by the former while completely unaware of the latter. How?

Because the text tells us so. It is noted that the smallfolk know of Tyrion's treatment of Pycelle, and clearly hold it against him. Later, we learn that they think he is somehow controlling Joffrey and behind Joff's foul deeds.

You say the smallfolk were off-put by the former while completely unaware of the latter. How?

One credible idea is that the men Tyrion had torture and terrorize Pycelle talked about their experiences. Shagga seems like the type who would not be immune to bragging after a few cups of ale in a tavern.

However, in the end the way people found out about Tyrion's treatment of Pycelle is insignficiant-- it is stated that they are aware of it, and hate Tyrion for it.

Later it is noted that these same people think Tyrion in league with Joffrey. I don't see why you see this as me contradicting myself. You actually seem to be the one who has several facts wrong.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Later it is noted that these same people think Tyrion in league with Joffrey. I don't see why you see this as me contradicting myself. You actually seem to be the one who has several facts wrong.

You're misusing 'several' in a manner similar to the way you misuse 'well known,' I see. Apparently, 'several' = one (you're right, I forgot that Pycelle was in an inn, I thought he was in his bedroom) and 'well known' = knowledge confined to courtiers and kingsguard.