Daenerys the Cheater

[jarl the climber]

@Towel

We all are. And I think your right Dany´s storyarc will bring her to a final conflict and conciliation with Jon/Starks. I still think GRRM will suprise us with it. Also I think he probably misjudged the reception of Dany by the readers.

I think the average readers or people who watch the TV show like Dany. The people like us and go on these forums are obbsessive crazy people. Dany has become a target for those who do not want to criticise George directly.

[butterbumps!]

She burned one person alive and she had it coming to her unless you count the people her dragons have fried :dunno: .

She crucified some vicious slavers adn not at random, I beleive she let them choose which ones she would crucify, thagt was very benevolent. The torture thing is disturbing but that was tough call. Like Tyrion I consider her so called sluttiness as a point in her favor.

I know that there's a lot of belief that MMD had it coming as you say, but the book gives a different interpretation. Drogo refused to follow MMD's suggestions for healing the wound (antiseptic poultice, lay off the booze), and he chose to get wasted all the time and not use the poultice she gave. As far as I'm concerned, she didn't try to kill him.

I also think that whatever happened to Rhaego was an accident. Out of necessity, Jorah brought her into the tent despite MMD's warning. I think of that as a no-fault casualty of the spell MMD performed. MMD let herself be blamed, because what else could she do at that point.

The second issue: I'm not sold on the fact that those she crucified were in fact those responsible, but that aside-- I think it was a stupid move for her to make as a political strategy because it showed the Meereenese nobles her weakness for children. They knew, from that point forward, that any child hostage they sent her would never be harmed, so she got no leverage. (I'm not saying she ought to have killed her hostages, just that the Meereenese knew it was an empty threat, so they didn't need to comply)

[Euphail]

There are so many awesome female characters in these books, and they don't have to be dainty "come save me" characters. One of my favorite characters is the Olenna Redwyne (Queen of Thorns.) I amexcited when she is in chapters because I know stuff was going to happen, and she is powerful, smart, and sly - and she had earned the right to what happened as a result.

Arya is badass, and Sansa (while I hated her in the first few books) is really starting to own herself and become awesome. There's a whole slew of other great female roles.

Daeny, though, is a self entitled idiot who has other people win her battles - all of whom just seem to be infatuated with her for no apparent reason. She butchers or 'helps' slaves when it's convenient; and as other threads have pointed out - I honestly don't think she isn't interested in freeing/helping slaves as much as she is interested in ensuring she remains in charge.

I was not a fan of Hizdahr because he was an opportunistic slaver, but good on him for puting Daeny in her place and proving how stupid she is.

Edit: typo

[Val the Wildling Princess]

She burned one person alive and she had it coming to her unless you count the people her dragons have fried :dunno: . She crucified some vicious slavers adn not at random, I beleive she let them choose which ones she would crucify, thagt was very benevolent. The torture thing is disturbing but that was tough call. Like Tyrion I consider her so called sluttiness as a point in her favor.

I'm talking about MMD and it makes no difference for me if she burned one or a hundred people. Burning people alive is cruel and that's the main reason that makes me dislike Stannis (or Melisandre) too. About the crucifixions, I feel like having a continuous deja vu but when she got to Meereen she didnt even know (well, she doesnt even seem to know yet xD) who her enemies are, and she just asked them to give her the slavers, they could have given her whoever they wanted, she never cared to know if she was crucifying innocent people or not.

[PatrickStormborn]

No one is saying everyone who hates Dany is sexist. But it's clearly a contributing factor to SOME people who hate her (just look at all the slut shaming on this forum, for instance). She's the only female character in the series with enough independent power to challenge the male characters, and she's criticised for things that other male characters aren't criticised for (her pride, burning MMD alive, etc.). But then again, this is a fandom who love the likes of Tyrion, Theon, Victarion, etc, who are misogynstic rapists. So maybe it's better that Dany is hated?

I must say, after reading all five books in a very short time, I found Dany the most frustrating character, too. She's a classical Mary Sue at the moment, but since Martin did a lot of awsome work with most of the other characters, I hope, that he has something great in store for Dany (and with that I don't mean, invading Westeros with three now very obedient dragons and taking the Iron Throne - that would be teh very obvious outcome), something none of us could imagine. And I hope, she will learn, how to treat her dragons right, fo that was the main reason, I hated her POVs in ADWD - I just couldn't stand Viserion and Rhaegar being chained in that dark hole - and who has to pay the prize for that? The nice, but naive Prince from Dorne (the last part was fun of course, I know, that Quentyn was responsible for what happend to him :) )

She's a Mary Sue? But... Your post seems to be explaining why she isn't a Mary Sue.

[eyeheartsansa]

You don't have to justify Dany and applaud every move she makes in order to still empathize and like her as a character. Yes, she's burned and crucified some people, we can debate her motivations all we want, but at the end of the day we can still like her if we want to.

[PatrickStormborn]

I'm talking about MMD and it makes no difference for me if she burned one or a hundred people. Burning people alive is cruel and that's the main reason that makes me dislike Stannis (or Melisandre) too. About the crucifixions, I feel like having a continuous deja vu but when she got to Meereen she didnt even know (well, she doesnt even seem to know yet xD) who her enemies are, and she just asked them to give her the slavers, they could have given her whoever they wanted, she never cared to know if she was crucifying innocent people or not.

I've made this point in other threads, but I'll repeat it here: Dany crucified Great Masters. She sent their bones to their wives in the pyramids (where Great Masters live). The Shavepate, who would stand to gain if he revealed the deceit of the Great Masters, never says anything (to my knowledge) about the identity of those who were crucified. So I think it's reasonable to believe that they were Great Masters.

Maybe the 163 men she crucified were the most liberal of the Great Masters. But that doesn't matter. She only had them crucified because they were slavers to show that 163 slave children were equal to 163 Great Masters. It was a symbolic gesture.

[Patchface12]

I've never liked Daario much, but Dany never loved Hizzie. Plus, he tried to kill her.

Compared to Drogo's butchery of the Lhazarene so she could go home and all those slaves that got crucified on her way to Yunkai (or was it Mereen?) because of her, this is pretty lightweight.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

No one is saying everyone who hates Dany is sexist. But it's clearly a contributing factor to SOME people who hate her (just look at all the slut shaming on this forum, for instance). She's the only female character in the series with enough independent power to challenge the male characters, and she's criticised for things that other male characters aren't criticised for (her pride, burning MMD alive, etc.).

If you think someone has said something sexist, call that person out. Instead people toss out generic condemnations of nameless sexist haters of female characters. It's nothing more than a smokescreen, and it's not only frustrating when people are trying to discuss a character, but also offensive.

Hey look, you did it right here, condemning the 'fandom' at large:

But then again, this is a fandom who love the likes of Tyrion, Theon, Victarion, etc, who are misogynstic rapists. So maybe it's better that Dany is hated?

[jarl the climber]

I'm talking about MMD and it makes no difference for me if she burned one or a hundred people. Burning people alive is cruel and that's the main reason that makes me dislike Stannis (or Melisandre) too. About the crucifixions, I feel like having a continuous deja vu but when she got to Meereen she didnt even know (well, she doesnt even seem to know yet xD) who her enemies are, and she just asked them to give her the slavers, they could have given her whoever they wanted, she never cared to know if she was crucifying innocent people or not.

I thought by crucifying the slavers on a one for one basis with the children who had been crucified she was making a statement that their lives had as much value as the slavers. We do not know what criteria she used to select who was crucified. Many slaves in Mereen rose for her and there is reason to beleive that she would have known who to select. She did return the bones to their families. Her constituency is the freed slaves and the disenchanted like the Shavepates she will never win over the Masters.

[PatrickStormborn]

If you think someone has said something sexist, call that person out. Instead people toss out generic condemnations of nameless sexist haters of female characters. It's nothing more than a smokescreen, and it's not only frustrating when people are trying to discuss a character, but also offensive.

Hey look, you did it right here, condemning the 'fandom' at large:

If my generalisation of the fandom does not apply to you, then you really shouldn't be offended.

I'm not very worried about offending misogynists.

[butterbumps!]

But listen, you guys are considering the character, you're taking the time to understand her, and then you're passing a judgment. YOUR dislike of Daenerys doesn't stem from sexism, but don't kid yourselves into thinking that it's not a real thing, either.

I don't want to beat this into the ground, but I do want to say this:

I'm sure there might be some readers who don't like Dany for sexist reasons, but I don't think those readers are typically the ones who put the time and energy into coming to the forum. It also changes the tenor of the discussion when it comes up. (This isn't directed at you, but generally).

I've seen Dany fans accuse those who don't like Dany for reasons of sexism, as well as those who accuse females who don't like Dany for reasons of jealously (seriously?). It makes it hard to debate the richness of her arc when issues like that are brought up.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

If my generalisation of the fandom does not apply to you, then you really shouldn't be offended.

I'm not very worried about offending misogynists.

I'm glad you admit that you are, in fact, generalizing.

[brashcandy]

If my generalisation of the fandom does not apply to you, then you really shouldn't be offended.

I'm not very worried about offending misogynists.

Indeed. I'm personally fed the hell up with the countless Dany hate threads, so I just avoid them. I've never seen so much vitriol spewed at a character for things that other male characters are praised and defended for.

[Lykos]

@Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

I think GRRM wanted to show the downside of waking the Targaryen dragon, Dany needed the strentgh to survive, but she paid by loosing control. I think GRRM deemed the empathy and fascination Dany´s character evoked, strong enough to carry the reader through the necessary detours to the climax, but a lot of readers became bored with Dany taking no action in the main story and even more grew frustrated with her lack of personal development.

ETA: This thread is way too fast for me, and I´m getting all those pink bars on top of it.

[Milcov]

The hate in the OP is flat out ridiculous. So because Drogo didn't rape her she's a 'cheater'. I should have stopped there but it got ridiculous, but let's just analyse that point.

A 13 year old girl with an incredibly abusive elder brother sells her to a savage warlord who doesn't share any language other than the word "no". On top of this she's spent her entire life moving onwards and fleeing from people who want to kill her. Her brother is a complete nutcase and she feared she'd have to marry him at some point. So I can't really emphasise this enough, that just because her barbarian warlord had the courtesy to say "No?" before having sex with this 13 year old girl means she gets an easy pass.

And that's only point 1 out of 35.

[Lady Octarina]

I think the average readers or people who watch the TV show like Dany. The people like us and go on these forums are obbsessive crazy people. Dany has become a target for those who do not want to criticise George directly.

You're right. Also, did you guys noticed how much the TV show changed the balance of favoritism of characters? I joined this fandom a few months before the show was aired, and I noticed that, before the show, the amount of people who loved Daenerys, Robb, Theon, Drogo and Renly was much smaller than after it, and many started hating Jon because of Kit Harrington's emo acting. Amazing what hot actors and actresses can do to a character's popularity! (or good acting - I nearly began to like Catelyn after the actress's great job!)

(I'm not saying that's the case with people here who like those characters, though I've noticed that it is, occasionally, but with 95% of the Tumblr-based fandom, that's exactly the case).

[BabyMeraxes]

I don't want to beat this into the ground, but I do want to say this:

I'm sure there might be some readers who don't like Dany for sexist reasons, but I don't think those readers are typically the ones who put the time and energy into coming to the forum. It also changes the tenor of the discussion when it comes up. (This isn't directed at you, but generally).

I've seen Dany fans accuse those who don't like Dany for reasons of sexism, as well as those who accuse females who don't like Dany for reasons of jealously (seriously?). It makes it hard to debate the richness of her arc when issues like that are brought up.

For real, though? I've been on these forums for literally weeks. You'd be surprised.

HA! Admit it. You just jealous of a sentence. J/K, butterbumps! Nothin but love, gurl!

[jarl the climber]

Indeed. I'm personally fed the hell up with the countless Dany hate threads, so I just avoid them. I've never seen so much vitriol spewed at a character for things that other male characters are praised and defended for.

I used to not like Dany that much but all the anti Dany people have compeled me to try and defend her and like her more. If only I could present her with a bag of heads like Daario did.... :drool:

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

ok, i've read again and I have to bite

1) I don't know whether you read this properly or are a bit confused with regards to sex but her first sex scenes with Drogo are not pleasant for her, it is rape and she does not have a good time until she falls for him (whether thats genuine or stockholm sydrome style is down to the individual reader). I think there's a quote like "if she cried out now, it wasn't always in pain".

2) Did it not occur to you why Drogo chose her instead of another Dothraki? He ruled the biggest Khalisar was young strong and ambitious. Did he have ambitions above that of a Dothraki, probably. He was open to changing traditions, just as he was happy to have his heir half Valyrian. Its about power, where do you go when your at the top, you move up a level.

3) I don't know how she was raised as a westerosi princess. From my reading she grew up mainly in a modest house with a red door in Bravos bullied by her brother looking fearfully over her shoulder for percieved assassins. She spent her more recent years in a mansion in Pentos but this still seems far from her being treated as a princess, I can't even remember her mentioning whether she was ever able to leave the mansion or if she had any friends, entourage there befitting a princess.

4) She get's pregnant. There's a 50/50 chance of it being a boy and we do in fact have no proof that it actually turned out to be so. They proclaimed him as the saviour. - That doesn't mean the child would have been, there are a lot of people particulaly children that are proclaimed as saviour. They are also ritually giving blessings on the child of the most powerful man in their culture, they aren't going to say he'll be a rubbish warrior and a nobody are they?

5) As I commented above. He does stupid things because he is stupid and self obsessed. The announcement of Dany's pregnancy has given the Dothraki a more preferable candidate for the Iron Throne. He sees his lifes ambition and all the plans his made in his head going pop and lashes out - again its in his character to lash out, Wake the Dragon ect.

6) Her believing shes running from usurper knives. We know Robert didn't send any but do you not think that statement says something about her brother's paranoia or his methods of controlling her? She qualifies the claim with thats what Viserys said and herself mentions she never saw any proof of it.

7) Assassin from Westeros? Did you think they sent an assassin from Westeros to get her. He would have stuck out like a sore thumb. They paid a more local assassin to carry out the task. There are plenty of assassins and cutthroats in Essos we've seen enough evidence in that. Jorah was a spy yes but as you point out they have never ordered the assassination of the Targs before. Asking him to be complicit in her death would be more out of character for him than him stepping into save her. You also haven't taken into account who's spy he is. He reports to Varys and what he was ordered to do is not clear yet.

8) Drogo and her child dying is not exactly her being lucky, she ends up in a really weak position. The Maegi reveals life pays for life, well she needed to in order to get her to allow her magic and couldn't have predicted she could hatch dragons.

9) The immune to fire seems to be a one off magical event possibly related to the comet or AA prophecy, it is a fantasy series magic comes with the territory and it is an awsome finale to a awesome book.

10) She crosses the desert, she does loose some of her people and it is described as harrowing. But your surprised she made it? In real life similar feats have been achieved from Neolithic man to Laurence of Arabia so you can give a fictional main character a break on this one.

11) As mentioned above they can't detect dragons. One of Dany's outriders finds them and brings them to her. She sends them out scouting IIRC but its not too much of a stretch to believe they are looking for her, a group that large would leave tracks not to mention could be spotted on the terrain. They of course wouldn't know anything other than a bunch of strangers are wandering the desert over there.

12) She gets lots of gifts and aid. She is a stranger with the only living dragons receiving gifts from rich traders to see them is not out of question. If you wondering why they didn't just kill her and take her dragons. They are a civilisation if a stranger came visiting my country with a mystical creature and I killed him for it I'm pretty sure I'd end up in jail pretty quickly. Plus she is aparantly quite attractive (though young) so its not beyond traders to want to marry to get her dragons.

13+14+15) He didn't lead her to a trap. IIRC he didn't want her to see them he wanted her to deal with him only. He took her there not knowing what the undying would do with her.Drogon is tuned in like the Direwolves are and lashes out when Dany is scared. After she accidently destroys the undying the trader is angry and attacks her. Your surprised that her seasoned warrior was able to prevent this trader?. As for the visions and the undying themselves, its not 100% known what they were doing to her in there or when they decided to attack, they were possibly using the visions to see themselves what her future would be watching them with her. Only when they discovered what lies ahead did they decide to attack,

16) Ok this is a coincidence though its not 100% known who sent the assassin, it could have been a ploy by Illyrio to earn her trust as Jorah pointed out.

17) Illyrio is a trader and sends ships to a major trading port. He tells his captain to take her aboard for the return journey. Trading ships are never usually empty. They take stuff to a port, sell stuff at said port, buy stuff with the money they've made and take that stuff back home to sell and make money with. It is not certain the captain will do what she says when Jorah suggests it. Luckily for her the captain seems amiable to her, was he from Westeros I can't remember.

18) The ships don't sink, these were trading ships with an experienced crew not an armada. If 1/3 of Illyrios ships sank every time he sent them to Quath he'd really start loosing out on money.

19) She went to slavers bay to get the Unsullied so its not a coincidence she found them there when she arrived. Jorah told her about them, how did Jorah know you ask, well its pretty well explained hes travelled well in Essos since living the last what 5-8 years in exile.

20) They got cheated out of the unsullied. On the face of it the events behind this does make them out to be idiots. Did their greed blind them, did they see it as their only chance to get a dragon and took the risk or perhaps they did not believe even if she ordered it the Unsullied would turn on their former masters. they'd trained them for years beat obedience into them and she'd had them for seconds. Maybe they underestimated the Unsullied soldiers opportunism and desire for revenge.

21) I can't remember her demonstrating any strategic or tactically knowledge but if you've got examples of her making decisions on her own regarding her formations/battleplans ect quote them. I remember Tyrion repeatedly finding flaws with the way Mereen was defended and the deployent of her elite troops as policemen.

22) I don't understand this point, betrayal is often a personal thing, so Jorah didn't commit the red wedding, that doesn't mean it didn't impact her emotionally and is an example of something she's had to overcome so to rubbish it like this is stupid.

23) Does she not loose her ships in this seige? She won the city through a trick it has happened many times in history Belarousius for one was very good at that. I think one of the Gisgards as well, actually I think Gisguard itself means cunning so it might have been Robert Gisgard himself.

24) I must be honest I can't remember this part and lent my book out

25) It's not clear if quathie is helping or hindering Dany. in my opinion Dany spends so much time thinking about 3 treasons she will suffer that she is begging to sound like her father.

26) She's not immune to diseases, that is never stated. She just thinks she is because she's a targ and targs think like that. she does infact appear ill at the end of ADWD though it is unclear if that is a miscarriage, poison or illness.

27) They didn't catch the disease for a reason not a mere plot device, they are clearly described as washing in sea water everyday its this or a ritual like this that probably keeps them from catching it.

28) Her decisions had constantly come back to bite her, ignoring her dragons for instant resulting in a dead child. The harpy murdering with impunity, having to marry Hizz-face, nearly getting poisoned?

29) All her enemies are being kept from taking her seriously as there too busy with their own problems, and Varys controlls what they hear. Qyburn on the other hand doesn't have the connections Varys could have abroad. Connections Varys could still be using to lead them a stray.

30) Aegon doesn't appear to me to be a benefit for her. He has a better claim to the throne than her and her whole life revolves around her being the rightful ruler. The title ADWD also indicates they will oppose each other as the Targ civil war was called the Dance of Dragons. Did you miss all of this?

31) You mean she's taken away at the point the city needs her the most. On the eve of battle where her persona and her dragons are needed. Where shes stranded trying to tame a wild beast that could easily kill her not to mention the Dothraki that approach her at the end? Yeah the lucky bitch.

32) She is the dragon's mother, and Drogon has always been close to her. He seems as bonded as the Starks are to their Direwolves and this is a fantasy series

33) Are the red priests her ally. She hasn't met one has she, they are definately curious about her but I thought the whole Volantis chapter indicated that it was the slaves who were desperate to help her as she freed slaves.

34) When I last looked nothing was solved, Barristan is doing his best but it is very much a cliffhanger and a battle's about to start.

35) Victarian is not neccessarily a good thing