Daenerys the Cheater

[eyeheartsansa]

It's amusing to me how much thought is given to the opinion of 'fandom at large,' characters being popular or unpopular; the TV show 'shifting the balance.' Like they are running for office, trending, staging debates and conducting polls.

I do think that TV Tyrion is a bit more likeable than how I imagined book Tyrion before I started watching the show.

[Vandalism]

And what about Dany being narrow-minded when it comes to her father and her House's flaws?

[Euphail]

And what about Dany being narrow-minded when it comes to her father and her House's flaws?

Umm clearly that's a fault of her poor upbringing and we should forgive that fault because there's nothing she can do about it. She's perfect.

[jarl the climber]

And what about Dany being narrow-minded when it comes to her father and her House's flaws?

She wasn't narrow minded about Viserys flaws, she knew he would have made a lousy King. She gives Barristan a hard time for comparing her to a coin but what he says does get through to her a little. It will be when she finally gets to Westeros that she must face her families legacy. In Mereen she has become a stand in for the Valyrians as a whole, who have a long history in Slavers Bay.

[Lizaveta Martell]

And what about Dany being narrow-minded when it comes to her father and her House's flaws?

Well, I think you have to think about her upbringing. Her creepy, abusive brother told her all she knows about the Targaryens. EVERYTHING. I think she's starting to realize that Viserys wasn't wholly rational about their family. She learning more, but that has to be hard to hear that she might be loosing her mind and could turn into a monster. It's like hearing you have a 50% chance of getting Huntington's or Alzhimer's. No one is going to take that well IMMEDIATELY.

[eyeheartsansa]

There is not much frame of reference for how a young girl is expected to feel about the legacy of her house and her father as 'the Mad King.'

If I learned that my father, whom I knew, burned people alive and was batshit crazy, I honestly don't know what I'd do with that information.

There is plenty she still doesn't know, having been fed most of the story from Viserys her whole ilfe, and then getting a sugarcoated version from Barristan. We can't expect Dany at her age to come completely to terms with her father's legacy right away. In a story like this it needs to unfold delicately over the course of several novels. Being stranded in the desert having time to reflect on these things, she is just now realizing, dammit, for better or worse, I'm a Targeryan! Fire and blood!

[Lizaveta Martell]

Also, I didn't say that all Dany hate is predicated on sexism. I gave 4 factors. But when you have a thread on Dany's bad choice in lovers (she chose all of one lover who is obviously hot and who she moves on from rather quickly and pragmatically and it's all a matter of personal taste anyway), I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that there is no sexism at all.

[butterbumps!]

@BabyMeraxes

haha! yea, there's some crazy stuff for sure. I stalked the forum for ages before finally signing up- to debate Dany's character, in fact, because I'd found her the most challenging to make up my mind about.

But it does seem that a lot of Dany fans bring out the sexism card rather quickly (and, from what I've seen, far moreso than other female characters). Which saddens me, because I think her presence in the story is probably the most complex and debate-worthy of anyone else's. To be fair, the Mary Sue thing bothers me as well (whether Dany or Jon). I could be wrong on this, but to the best of my knowledge, I haven't seen anyone who's a Stannis fan, for example, accusing anti-Stannisers of hating him because he's male. I think unless an individual reader categorically hates all of the female characters based on reasons of their gender, I just think it's really unfair criticism.

And it's not fair to the texture of Dany's character.

(and my jealousy actually stems from how swiftly she seems to regrow her hair)

[eyeheartsansa]

I don't think it's possible for a baby boomer male American author to write a fantasy novel that is completely devoid of any sexism. If there was such a novel, this Gen-Xer American male (a target demographic for this kind of novel) would find it incredibly heavy handed and tiresome, becuase rather than telling a good story, it would be trying too hard not to be sexist.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

@Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

I think GRRM wanted to show the downside of waking the Targaryen dragon, Dany needed the strentgh to survive, but she paid by loosing control. I think GRRM deemed the empathy and fascination Dany´s character evoked, strong enough to carry the reader through the necessary detours to the climax, but a lot of readers became bored with Dany taking no action in the main story and even more grew frustrated with her lack of personal development.

ETA: This thread is way too fast for me, and I´m getting all those pink bars on top of it.

But is GRRM not aware that he might have failed a bit with her story and character? I am not sure that he is perfectly content with it. I mean he intended the book series to be shorter than it currently is, there are five books and Danny's story is in my view somewhat behind 'schedule'. More things should have IMO happened to her, and she should have done more things already, especially with the Westeros story.

[The Storm Queen]

I used to not like Dany that much but all the anti Dany people have compeled me to try and defend her and like her more. If only I could present her with a bag of heads like Daario did.... :drool:

We´re in the same boat, Jarl! I am really not that fond of some elements of her arc (lazy world building, two-dimensional characters etc.) and there are many things I dislike about Dany (shortsightness, impulsiveness, worst counterinsurgency strategy ever) but then I read some extremly hateful posts or slut shaming argumentation and I really feel tempted to defend her... Maybe the hateful posters are in fact Manchurian candidates for the pro-Dany fraction :-)

[PatrickStormborn]

@BabyMeraxes

haha! yea, there's some crazy stuff for sure. I stalked the forum for ages before finally signing up- to debate Dany's character, in fact, because I'd found her the most challenging to make up my mind about.

But it does seem that a lot of Dany fans bring out the sexism card rather quickly (and, from what I've seen, far moreso than other female characters). Which saddens me, because I think her presence in the story is probably the most complex and debate-worthy of anyone else's. To be fair, the Mary Sue thing bothers me as well (whether Dany or Jon). I could be wrong on this, but to the best of my knowledge, I haven't seen anyone who's a Stannis fan, for example, accusing anti-Stannisers of hating him because he's male. I think unless an individual reader categorically hates all of the female characters based on reasons of their gender, I just think it's really unfair criticism.

And it's not fair to the texture of Dany's character.

(and my jealousy actually stems from how swiftly she seems to regrow her hair)

... That's probably because misandry doesn't exist.

[eyeheartsansa]

... That's probably because misandry doesn't exist.

... ever read Wheel of Time??

[Lady Octarina]

It's amusing to me how much thought is given to the opinion of 'fandom at large,' characters being popular or unpopular; the TV show 'shifting the balance.' Like they are running for office, trending, staging debates and conducting polls.

I do think that TV Tyrion is a bit more likeable than how I imagined book Tyrion before I started watching the show.

I pay attention to that for purely sociological curiosity, not for wishing they would like X more than Y, or something. Such observations reveal much more than can be guessed about western society and culture in general. I really wish there were more serious studies on the subject of fandoms and its characteristics and changes.

[DornishKnight]

To the opening:

She is being handed everything so she can fully develop into an arrogant self-entitled maniac. When she arrives in Westeros to claim her "right" she will threaten to doom the world. It will be the Starks, by now morally grey and jaded badasses, to cast her down.

In the end, Jaime will kill her and sit on the iron throne waiting to see who will come next to claim it (again), Barristan will kill Dany and FINALLY get it, or Arya will needle her.

[The Storm Queen]

... That's probably because misandry doesn't exist.

But.....but...what about the white repressed male??????

[butterbumps!]

... That's probably because misandry doesn't exist.

I'm going to leave this alone henceforth, but I would like to point out that the overt sexism that I have seen in relation to Dany goes the other way- Guys who find she can do no wrong citing her "hotness" as the reason.

[brashcandy]

@BabyMeraxes

haha! yea, there's some crazy stuff for sure. I stalked the forum for ages before finally signing up- to debate Dany's character, in fact, because I'd found her the most challenging to make up my mind about.

But it does seem that a lot of Dany fans bring out the sexism card rather quickly (and, from what I've seen, far moreso than other female characters). Which saddens me, because I think her presence in the story is probably the most complex and debate-worthy of anyone else's. To be fair, the Mary Sue thing bothers me as well (whether Dany or Jon). I could be wrong on this, but to the best of my knowledge, I haven't seen anyone who's a Stannis fan, for example, accusing anti-Stannisers of hating him because he's male. I think unless an individual reader categorically hates all of the female characters based on reasons of their gender, I just think it's really unfair criticism.

And it's not fair to the texture of Dany's character.

(and my jealousy actually stems from how swiftly she seems to regrow her hair)

There's something called male privilege which would apply here. Many posters don't interrogate the supposed "right" of Stannis to go after what he thinks is his, or to burn people alive, destroy godswoods and sleep with another woman. You may not wish to debate the sexism that is inherent in much of the criticism of Dany's character, but it is there 100%

[Lizaveta Martell]

I think that something that is more interesting is how much people say that they don't like Essos or they feel like Dany has "wasted time" and she should just go to Westeros. I just don't understand any of that.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I think that something that is more interesting is how much people say that they don't like Essos or they feel like Dany has "wasted time" and she should just go to Westeros. I just don't understand any of that.

Most interesting players, characters and events happening in this series happen in Westeros. Instead in Essos Daenery's is interacting with more undeveloped and worse characters and in locations and places that are not sufficiently developed to care as much about them as say the fate of Winterfell. If Danny's story does not connect with the rest of the other stories that are centered in one place (and Danny in the first place is connected with the Westeros story through who she is, and what goal she set to go and conquer it so it makes sense for readers to expect her to at some poitn appear in Westeros), that would be disappointing. Since AGOT there was the promise of her going to Westeros but that got sidetracked when she lost her husband and army. But then she gained Dragons and the readers regained that expectation. But now it's the fifth book and she has not reached Westeros and so it is understandable for readers to be frustrated as the perceived goal of her story not happening and her storyline being perceived to not moving as fast as it would have been prefferable.

In my case I am more disappointed by her story being more uneventful after AGOT than I expected. I mean this is the fifth book, called A Dance With Dragons but the Dragons were locked for most of it and only at the end of the book she started riding it. I had different expectations at the end of AGOT, of more things happening in her story.