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Daenerys the Cheater


Blue-eyed Onion

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I'm going to leave this alone henceforth, but I would like to point out that the overt sexism that I have seen in relation to Dany goes the other way- Guys who find she can do no wrong citing her "hotness" as the reason.

We could call this the Ser Arys Oakheart factor and have countless threads about it. Its not like a man can't fall for the wrong woman and ruin his life just like a woman can with a a man.

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I think that something that is more interesting is how much people say that they don't like Essos or they feel like Dany has "wasted time" and she should just go to Westeros. I just don't understand any of that.

They want her to go to Westeros so they can accuse her of starting a shitstorm there as well.

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I'm going to leave this alone henceforth, but I would like to point out that the overt sexism that I have seen in relation to Dany goes the other way- Guys who find she can do no wrong citing her "hotness" as the reason.

If someone says they like a character because of their "hotness", then I probably don't read their posts.

But anyway, I forgot to comment on the other part of your post: that misogynism is only hating all women. This is incorrect. If you hate Sansa, Catelyn, Daenerys, etc. and only like Asha and Arya, then you're probably somewhat misogynistic.

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They want her to go to Westeros so they can accuse her of starting a shitstorm there as well.

Really? Because, from what I've seen, people who like her and want her to go to Westeros want to see her becoming Queen and marrying Aegon or Jon (or both!). I particularly prefer the idea of her staying in Essos and setting things right, fixing all the chaos she left around there. I would respect her again in that case.

But anyway, I forgot to comment on the other part of your post: that misogynism is only hating all women. This is incorrect. If you hate Sansa, Catelyn, Daenerys, etc. and only like Asha and Arya, then you're probably somewhat misogynistic.

How so? Does that mean that if I hate Robert and Theon and only like Oberyn and Jaime I'm still whatever the corresponding word for people with prejudices against men is?

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But anyway, I forgot to comment on the other part of your post: that misogynism is only hating all women. This is incorrect. If you hate Sansa, Catelyn, Daenerys, etc. and only like Asha and Arya, then you're probably somewhat misogynistic.

Uhh why? Why can't I hate some people who happen to be women, and like others? I hated Sansa for part of the books, and loved her in others. Does this mean I was more misogynistic in some parts, and less in others?

I don't think anyone on this forum hates the characters because they're women, but because they don't relate to the reasoning behind their decisions. I hope, in the context of a female character, this isn't misogynism. I understand there is a difference in reasoning, but I reject theirs. I relate better to some female characters, the same way I relate better to some male characters.

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We could call this the Ser Arys Oakheart factor and have countless threads about it. Its not like a man can't fall for the wrong woman and ruin his life just like a woman can with a a man.

Haha- no I know, well aware. I tend not to care for the gratuitious sex threads personally. Just that it's funny if "don't like Dany" = sexism, that there's a lot out there that "like Dany" = sexism too. For what it's worth, I skip over the "I don't like Dany because of Daario stuff," because I find it irrelevant to judging her character.

I feel outnumbered on this one so I'll concede defeat. It's more that I like being able to express criticism about her without worrying I come across/ interpreted as sexist. *truce?*

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How so? Does that mean that if I hate Robert and Theon and only like Oberyn and Jaime I'm still whatever the corresponding word for people with prejudices against men is?

Asha and Arya have masculine qualities. If someone hates ALL of the feminine female characters and only likes female characters who have male characteristics, then I believe they're probably somewhat misogynistic.

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In my case I am more disappointed by her story being more uneventful after AGOT than I expected. I mean this is the fifth book, called A Dance With Dragons but the Dragons were locked for most of it and only at the end of the book she started riding it. I had different expectations at the end of AGOT, of more things happening in her story.

the title refers to a dynastic civil war between Targeryan siblings, hundreds of years before.

How this plays into the current story is beyond me, but I expect that soon we are going to see history repeating itself through Dany and Aegon.

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Most interesting players, characters and events happening in this series happen in Westeros. Instead in Essos Daenery's is interacting with more undeveloped and worse characters and in locations and places that are not sufficiently developed to care as much about them as say the fate of Winterfell. If Danny's story does not connect with the rest of the other stories that are centered in one place (and Danny in the first place is connected with the Westeros story through who she is, and what goal she set to go and conquer it so it makes sense for readers to expect her to at some poitn appear in Westeros), that would be disappointing. Since AGOT there was the promise of her going to Westeros but that got sidetracked when she lost her husband and army. But then she gained Dragons and the readers regained that expectation. But now it's the fifth book and she has not reached Westeros and so it is understandable for readers to be frustrated as the perceived goal of her story not happening and her storyline being perceived to not moving as fast as it would have been prefferable.

In my case I am more disappointed by her story being more uneventful after AGOT than I expected. I mean this is the fifth book, called A Dance With Dragons but the Dragons were locked for most of it and only at the end of the book she started riding it. I had different expectations at the end of AGOT, of more things happening in her story.

I just don't feel that Essos is naturally less interesting. I do wish there were more POV characters in Essos, but the fate of Missendrei is interesting to me. I do want to see what Dany does in Slaver's Bay, more than I want her to rush off to Westeros. I think it makes more sense for her character for her to stay in Essos and work to change something in Slaver's Bay, rather than go reclaim the Iron Throne. The readers may feel that the narrative as a whole is currently asymmetrical, for Dany as an individual, it's not.

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Asha and Arya have masculine qualities. If someone hates ALL of the feminine female characters and only likes female characters who have male characteristics, then I believe they're probably somewhat misogynistic.

I don't agree with this reasoning, since all women in real world or literature will have what people consider "male" characteristics, as well as all men will have "female" characteristics, but if we follow that, can you truly say that Daenerys never acts or thinks like a man? Because I think that's exactly what leads her to some of her worst decisions. After all, it is said violence is a male characteristics - and both Daenerys and Catelyn have been violent one moment or another. Sansa hasn't yet, but it's just a matter of time, I believe.

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but that's a faulty dichotomy to say that brute force = masculine, diplomacy = feminine. What happens exactly when you try to come between, say, a lionness and her cubs?

In general, I don't think it makes much sense to try to read this story 'only' through the lens of 21st century sexual politics.. unless you have very specific academic goals.

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I don't agree with this reasoning, since all women in real world or literature will have what people consider "male" characteristics, as well as all men will have "female" characteristics, but if we follow that, can you truly say that Daenerys never acts or thinks like a man? Because I think that's exactly what leads her to some of her worst decisions. After all, it is said violence is a male characteristics - and both Daenerys and Catelyn have been violent one moment or another. Sansa hasn't yet, but it's just a matter of time, I believe.

Asha and Arya are straight up tomboys tho, and basically take up a LOT of male attributes, to the point where they essentially function as men in society, either through dressing as one (Arya), or acting as one (Asha, Arya).

It's not about violence, it's about what role they are taking up. Brienne is an illustration of a subversion of the "tomboy" character since she suffers all sorts of problems for it, and she's also not magically pretty, super smart or amazingly charming either.

The reason a lot of people unused to strong female characters find it easier to like Arya, Asha and Brienne is because they take on a lot of attributes and also the roles we see male heroes use. They fight, they're fierce, etc.

Then you have characters like Dany and Sansa, who have a far harder time finding an audience since they are more traditionally female.

I completely agree with Patrick Stormborn that the intrinsic value placed on a more "tomboyish" character infers latent sexism.

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I don't agree with this reasoning, since all women in real world or literature will have what people consider "male" characteristics, as well as all men will have "female" characteristics, but if we follow that, can you truly say that Daenerys never acts or thinks like a man? Because I think that's exactly what leads her to some of her worst decisions. After all, it is said violence is a male characteristics - and both Daenerys and Catelyn have been violent one moment or another. Sansa hasn't yet, but it's just a matter of time, I believe.

By "male characteristics" I was referring to their swordfighting which, in their society, is a male characteristic. Daenerys and Catelyn both break the stereotypical roles of women in Westerosi society, but both still retain their femininity.

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Concerning misogyny (as a male):

I don't like Sansa in the first book because she's stupid. I like her in the later books because she adapts to survive.

I like Dany in the first book because she adapts and has a relatively compelling story. After that she is a Mary Sue.

I like Asha, because she is awesome (yes, she has masculine qualities but she is not "a woman written like a man").

I like Brienne because she is similar to Asha, but written as a more feminine woman and, thus, more realistic (also, the ugliness factor makes me want her to be happy). Also, she has to deal with that misogynistic dick Tarly.

I think Arianne is OK, after she learns to not be like her cousins. She's not a masculine woman at all, and pretty normal (if sexually free) girl.

Catelyn is OK. She is the prototypical mother character.

Cersei is a delicious villain. I love her chapters because she is a textbook misandrist idiot with the thought process of "Men only think with their penises" (btw ladies, NEVER make that mistake) and has a big case of compensation-for-not-being-born-a-man syndrome. Just as women (I'm guessing) see guys like Gregor or Vargo as everything in a man gone wrong, I see Cersei as a perversion of all that can be good in a woman. I LOVE to hate her.

Finally, who doesn't like Arya? Seriously.

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but that's a faulty dichotomy to say that brute force = masculine, diplomacy = feminine. What happens exactly when you try to come between, say, a lionness and her cubs?

In general, I don't think it makes much sense to try to read this story 'only' through the lens of 21st century sexual politics.. unless you have very specific academic goals.

The point that posters are trying to make is that these books do not exist in a void and that barring certain scenarios-a mother defending her children, a virgin defending her honour-women are not perceived as being violent/aggressive.

Also, when it comes to fantasy, women are either feminine damsels in distress or masculine tomboy warriors. It is rare to find characters like Cersei or Dany who want without letting go off their femininity.

It is unfortunately understood in popular media that female characters are defensive-they protect whereas male ones will be aggressive. Men "do" while women "are".

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Does physical attractiveness not come into play here? If you are attractive, people are going to treat you in a way that makes you feel more 'feminine' or 'masculine' than they would if you were not so attractive. Doors in your life will open and close because of this. What if Dany looked like Brienne, and what if Brienne was hot? Dany would probably be dead, or working in a kitchen somewhere, and Brienne would be a highborn lady, she may or may not have ever felt the need to pick up a sword to prove anything to anyone.

What about Arya and Sansa? How do their looks affect their manners, the quality of their needlework, or the praise and/or scolding they received from Septa Mordane as a result?

What about Asha? She seems like the only character in the books who is both attractive AND tomboyish. She's embraced the Ironborn viking/warrior lifestyle to its fullest - and still likes men!

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By "male characteristics" I was referring to their swordfighting which, in their society, is a male characteristic. Daenerys and Catelyn both break the stereotypical roles of women in Westerosi society, but both still retain their femininity.

I could agree with that. But where I love Catelyn for her intentions, consistency, strength, compassion, and attempts to flourish in a rather bleak situation.... I hate Daeny for all the same reasons.

In my opinion, (keeping this brief) her intentions are almost never just and stem from "I'm the Dragon, RAAR!"

She has no consistency.

Her strength is moderate, but where something acutally has to be done, it's another character having to do it for her.

She does show compassion where it's convenient.

She does ATTEMPT to flourish, but any success is due to the fact she fights idiotic flat characters.

I do think that she is an idiot for sleeping around. But that's not because it's a woman doing it. It's because what's right for her rule is to not sleep around, rather to arrange a powerful alliance, possibly through a (or even multiple (similar to Aegon the conqueror, but reversed)) marriage. I also thought Robert was an idiot for sleeping around, which I think everyone can agree to.

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Asha and Arya have masculine qualities. If someone hates ALL of the feminine female characters and only likes female characters who have male characteristics, then I believe they're probably somewhat misogynistic.

I think that they not just somewhat misogynistic, they are misogynistic! When you relate, like and sympathise only with characters who have what would be called ''manly'' qualities, e.g. being skilled at fighting, brave, not caring about clothes or their general appearance, not complaining ever about pain or anything in general because they are ''manly'' enough to handle it, yes you are misogynistic.

The term ''manly'' is sexist, since it opposes female (''womanly'', is it a word?), the former term referring to positive attributes that should be emulated and the later to attributes that should be avoided. If a woman has ''manly'' traits she is cool and awesome (''she has balls'' a phrase that proves the innate sexism in our language and society, in my opinion). If a man is effeminate (womanly?) he deserves our scorn. Sometimes if a woman is effeminate ( acts according to her gender role), it is considered negative.

A man can be called a ''di##'' or a ''cu##t'', as can a woman derogatively.

But a man could never be said to have a vag##a'' meaning praise!

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Concerning misogyny (as a male):

I don't like Sansa in the first book because she's stupid. I like her in the later books because she adapts to survive.

I like Dany in the first book because she adapts and has a relatively compelling story. After that she is a Mary Sue.

I like Asha, because she is awesome (yes, she has masculine qualities but she is not "a woman written like a man").

I like Brienne because she is similar to Asha, but written as a more feminine woman and, thus, more realistic (also, the ugliness factor makes me want her to be happy). Also, she has to deal with that misogynistic dick Tarly.

I think Arianne is OK, after she learns to not be like her cousins. She's not a masculine woman at all, and pretty normal (if sexually free) girl.

Catelyn is OK. She is the prototypical mother character.

Cersei is a delicious villain. I love her chapters because she is a textbook misandrist idiot with the thought process of "Men only think with their penises" (btw ladies, NEVER make that mistake) and has a big case of compensation-for-not-being-born-a-man syndrome. Just as women (I'm guessing) see guys like Gregor or Vargo as everything in a man gone wrong, I see Cersei as a perversion of all that can be good in a woman. I LOVE to hate her.

Finally, who doesn't like Arya? Seriously.

Thanks for proving the point :rolleyes:

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Asha and Arya are straight up tomboys tho, and basically take up a LOT of male attributes, to the point where they essentially function as men in society, either through dressing as one (Arya), or acting as one (Asha, Arya).

It's not about violence, it's about what role they are taking up. Brienne is an illustration of a subversion of the "tomboy" character since she suffers all sorts of problems for it, and she's also not magically pretty, super smart or amazingly charming either.

The reason a lot of people unused to strong female characters find it easier to like Arya, Asha and Brienne is because they take on a lot of attributes and also the roles we see male heroes use. They fight, they're fierce, etc.

Then you have characters like Dany and Sansa, who have a far harder time finding an audience since they are more traditionally female.

I completely agree with Patrick Stormborn that the intrinsic value placed on a more "tomboyish" character infers latent sexism.

I don't agree with that completly, its easier to get along with a female or frankly just about anybody if you have the same interests except for maybe this book series :drunk: Arya is far younger than Asha and hasn't had to come to grips with her femininity yet. Brienne is someone who has suffered or is confused by her masculine qualities and the pain she beleives it has caused her Father. Cersei is a woman who would prefer to be treated as a man but displays no tomboyish tendencies. The vibe I get from Arya is she mislikes be treated differently because she is highborn and what is expected out of her because she is a highborn female.

So if I like Sansa because she is bueatiful, compliant, and likely to sire my children and be happy staying at home minding the castle that means I am not sexist?

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